Decertify Union - Can ALPA Help?

[SCE to AUX]

Does ALPA have a contact person who can help with decertification procedures for pilot groups who wish to oust current union and join ALPA?

Contact info please.

Thanks in advance for your help.

 

[CFIT]

Does ALPA have a contact person who can help with decertification procedures for pilot groups who wish to oust current union and join ALPA?

Contact info please.

Thanks in advance for your help.

Are you kidding?

Rez? Where art thou?

 

[Options_SLAVE]

You said that was already happening back in April of 2006. Gonna try again, huh?

 

[FlyingDawg]

You said that was already happening back in April of 2006. Gonna try again, huh?

I think what happened back then was several members tried to slate a set of officers in an attempt to takeover the local in the election process. When some of the Local leaders felt threatened they fought back by threatening to convict these members under the bylaws for speaking out against the union, something forbidden by local and international bylaws. The group attempting the takeover backed down and the current officers pretty much ran unopposed.


The RAH pilot group still feel they don't get their moneys worth in representation. Some recent developments have again brought this to the forefront.

Although a few different members are speaking out to again vote out the Teamsters, I personally don't believe it will ever happen. Too many line-pilots don't think ALPA is the way to go because they feel ALPA doesn't do a good job with regionals. Others support a in-house union, while others don't believe a in-house would have the internal mechanics and support of such items as strike funds etc...

Their are still some who support the Teamsters but the majority just don't give a poop. Remember the reality of the airline industry is just now hitting home at RAH. The first furloughs hit the street in Sept, and many still believe they are just at a stepping stone to the majors.

There are many, like myself, who do not believe a change would change our lives that much. Why bother?

Just consider RAH as a "house divided" and nothing will happen because of it. Teamsters, good or bad, are there to stay.

 

[Goose Egg]

Can ALPA help?

The answer, whether by deliberate means or merely unintentional ineptitude, is no.

-Goose

 

[J and E's Daddy]

A petition must be sent out and signed. If there are enough signautes, it goes to the national mediation board. Then a vote goes out for representation i.e ALPA vs. Teamsters. After ballots are casted, the winner becomes the new bargaining representative.

 

[PCL_128]

ALPA will not help you decertify a union, because ALPA's policy is to not raid other unions. I disagree with the policy, but it is what it is. In any case, if you need any help, send me a PM. I used to do lots of organizing work for ALPA, so I'm quite familiar with the procedures for decertification and certifying a new bargaining representative. Just don't expect ALPA to provide any assistance while you're still represented by the IBT.

 

[DoinTime]

ALPA will not help you decertify a union, because ALPA's policy is to not raid other unions. I disagree with the policy, but it is what it is. In any case, if you need any help, send me a PM. I used to do lots of organizing work for ALPA, so I'm quite familiar with the procedures for decertification and certifying a new bargaining representative. Just don't expect ALPA to provide any assistance while you're still represented by the IBT.

Although with all of the raiding that the IBT has been doing on ALPA properties I'm sure many would relish the opportunity to twist the knife in the back of the teamsters.

 

[PCL_128]

Although with all of the raiding that the IBT has been doing on ALPA properties I'm sure many would relish the opportunity to twist the knife in the back of the teamsters.

Agreed. Dave Bourne is on a scorched earth campaign with all of the raiding he's doing for the IBT. ALPA needs to re-think their policy. Their membership numbers are shrinking while other unions raid ALPA shops, but ALPA is still stuck in their old-school "no raids" thinking. I can understand not raiding AFL-CIO properties, because that's actually an AFL policy, but the IBT is not affiliated with the AFL any longer. In fact, they owe millions in back dues to the AFL.

 

[Goose Egg]

Their membership numbers are shrinking while other unions raid ALPA shops, but ALPA is still stuck in their old-school "no raids" thinking.

Did you just say "ALPA shops?" I don't know about you, but I haven't machined anything lately.

-Goose

 

[Options_SLAVE]

A petition must be sent out and signed. If there are enough signautes, it goes to the national mediation board. Then a vote goes out for representation i.e ALPA vs. Teamsters. After ballots are casted, the winner becomes the new bargaining representative.

To clarify, 30% of the Union members would have to sign and send in a card for such election, the NMB will then set a date for the vote. And during the vote, you can put in ANY union, not just ALPA or the Teamsters, not that there is anyone else really for pilots, but still would be possible, if there was another organization that would be interested, you could write them into the ballot as well, and the Union with the most votes becomes the new organization (if changed).

 

[PCL_128]

Did you just say "ALPA shops?" I don't know about you, but I haven't machined anything lately.

-Goose

"Shop" is simply a labor term and a legal term. All ALPA airlines are "agency shops" in legal terms, for instance. It has nothing to do with whether you've machined anything lately.

And Slave, the the required number of cards is 35%.

 

[DoinTime]

not that there is anyone else really for pilots

There is only one national pilot's union.

 

[Options_SLAVE]

Get off your knees, dude. It's embarrasing.


That national union you imagine is based in Utopia. It would screw you in a heart beat if it would save a mainline job. It's bad enough airlines are disappearing due to the economy, but on top of that your "national union" is losing huge chunks of pilots who are removing themselves from "utopia".

There will never be a true "national" union, as there is such a massive conflict of interest between the interests of mainline vs. the regionals. I don't see that EVER changing. The latest vote on the 401(k) issue should prove that to you. If mainline pilots would make the sacrifices necessary to put the RJ flying on their property then we could truly have a national union. Until then, it's "united we get your dues, but divided we stand at the table".

We need a RALPA. IT could be a national union, and would not face the conflict of interests at the bargaining tables that exist now every time a major goes to the table to discuss the regional flying, when currently many times it is ALPA representing both entities.

I'd vote for a RALPA.


And PCL_128, it's 35% of pilots to have submitted cards to the NMB to have a vote to vote in a Union, but it's only 30% required to call a vote to decertify a union.

 

[PCL_128]

The latest vote on the 401(k) issue should prove that to you.

The latest vote on the 401k issue proves you wrong, actually. The UAL status reps voted against the change and supported the "little guys." In fact, lots of reps that wouldn't have been affected by this dues increase still voted against it. The system worked, and you were proven wrong.

I'd vote for a RALPA.

That's because you don't understand the problems inherent in such a union. All of the regionals within ALPA don't even bring enough revenue to cover their own expenses. They are subsidized by the dues revenue of those mainline pilot groups that you hate so much. Put a ton of regional pilot groups together in "RALPA" and what do you get? A giant sucking sound of dues money going down the drain into a bottomless pit of debt, eventually leading to bankruptcy of your beloved "RALPA." Unless you want them all to pay 5% of their salary in dues, the regionals can't support their own union.

And PCL_128, it's 35% of pilots to have submitted cards to the NMB to have a vote to vote in a Union, but it's only 30% required to call a vote to decertify a union.

Actually, you're wrong there too. It requires 50%+ to hold a vote if you're already represented by a collective bargain agent. The number 30% isn't used for any proceeding under NMB rules that I'm aware of.

 

[Options_SLAVE]

I don't have the time right now to research it, but I'm pretty sure my #'s are right as this was an issue when we were organizing Options, and in fact there is actually an extremely unpopular, no-way-in-hell decertification effort being half-hazardly attempted right now at Options by a couple kool-aid drinking management-sucking pilots.


I didn't say they could afford it, I said they need it (RALPA). I agree, it would be very hard to fund it. In fact, this is why I quite frankly just can't understand why the pilots at Net Jets broke away from the Teamsters to do it on their own. They will have the same exact problems trying to run their pilot group of 4,000 pilots with their funds, which I believe are now 1.5% of their GROSS (not BASE) pay, which was a little increase in revenue, but only amounts to around 1.5 to an increasing 2.5M per year (in monies that would have gone to National) by 2013. There are a lot more regional pilots than there are Net Jet pilots, so I do not see it as an impossible feat, but agree it would be hard to get it going and would be underfunded, although maybe they could opt to not buy so many sandwiches or send people to hawaii for meetings.

Doin'Time was having his utopian moment, I was just having mine. ;-)

 

[DoinTime]

It's bad enough airlines are disappearing due to the economy, but on top of that your "national union" is losing huge chunks of pilots who are removing themselves from "utopia".

Ok.....Airways left because their crybaby pilots think they can preserve their status quo by defecting (not a representational or membership value issue). Meanwhile this little USAPA experiment is turning into one of the most spectacular failures of any organized pilot group in the history of aviation. Airways will be ALPA again (provided that Airways is able to survive the next couple years). The east pilots are old and they will retire soon enough. When they leave they will take their hostility and bitterness with them.

Who else of your "huge chunks of pilots" are removing themselves from ALPA?

 

[PCL_128]

I don't have the time right now to research it, but I'm pretty sure my #'s are right as this was an issue when we were organizing Options

You can find the information right here:http://www.nmb.gov/representation/faqs-ola.html

 

[DoinTime]

I didn't say they could afford it, I said they need it (RALPA). I agree, it would be very hard to fund it.

RALPA has already existed once. It failed the first time, why do you think any different this time?

 

[CFIT]

That's because you don't understand the problems inherent in such a union. All of the regionals within ALPA don't even bring enough revenue to cover their own expenses. They are subsidized by the dues revenue of those mainline pilot groups that you hate so much. Put a ton of regional pilot groups together in "RALPA" and what do you get? A giant sucking sound of dues money going down the drain into a bottomless pit of debt, eventually leading to bankruptcy of your beloved "RALPA." Unless you want them all to pay 5% of their salary in dues, the regionals can't support their own union.

Sure if you use the ALPO foundation of economics. ALPO has a huge and useless economy of waste, with Prater alone sucking in a half a million a year in costs and your beloved Worthless getting a lifetime pension of $150,000.00 a year. The regionals would be well advised to get out of ALPO and get a seperate union to represent them.

ALPO is nothing other than a business, and if they want the regionals in their house it's for nothing other than a revenue stream.

From my calculations, SkyWest alone would add 3 million alone to ALPO coffers, how in the world can costs be that much? Answer in any way how it could costs that much to support?

There is no way that the regionals cost more to support than their dues pay, it's a business after all.

ALPO that is.........

Obviously, nobody gives a dam about the regionals.

 

[Options_SLAVE]

Ok.....Airways left because their crybaby pilots think they can preserve their status quo by defecting (not a representational or membership value issue). Meanwhile this little USAPA experiment is turning into one of the most spectacular failures of any organized pilot group in the history of aviation. Airways will be ALPA again (provided that Airways is able to survive the next couple years). The east pilots are old and they will retire soon enough. When they leave they will take their hostility and bitterness with them.

Who else of your "huge chunks of pilots" are removing themselves from ALPA?

Damn, Cap'n - how biga' chunks we need to discuss, how many more do you think ALPA can stomach losing? 5500 MAJOR airline pilots was HUGE, and they are NOT coming back anytime soon. In fact, I believe there's a 2-year minimum before another decert vote could happen when a new union comes in, right PCL-128?

Actually the whole Airways fiasco was caused by the ALPA (West) pilots' arbitration on seniority integration. The west pilots are outnumbered by the east pilots, yet the west pilots' ALPA was in charge. They forgot that all pilots have a vote, and a "percentage-based seniority integration" was "fair" only for the AW pilots. For their ALPA MEC to think that would fly proved FATAL.

I think it was a brilliant move on their pilots that formed the new union, as now THEY are in charge of contract negotiations, and as it should be, seniority has its priviledges and will now be respected.

Merging carriers is a b!tch, we all know that, and the AW/USAir merger was a worst-case scenario for ALPA, but only because for almost 100 years ALPA has simply ignored and chosen NOT come up with a standard merger policy, going instead with expensive, cumbersome, time consuming and debilitating individual arbitration and relying on the extremely vague swiss cheese called Allegeny/Mowhawk, which usually involves the buyer having its way with the group that got bought.

Well, that's life I guess, perhaps it's darwinism. To the victor goes the spoils. I can understand that. However the USAir pilots fought it, and caught ALPA with its pants down - the crap that ALPA came up with for a seniority integration was just that, crap, and was to the gratitude of the US Air pilots' 59 years of loyalty vs. America West which was how old? Personally I don't care, especially since I personally blame USAir for J4J and all that has done to our industry. But I sure tip my hat to their cunning and being able to so simply not only get control of the situation but RIP it out of ALPA's hands and thumping them on the head to boot, and now their one-list contract will be done THEIR way, not ALPA's.

USAir may be ALPA again some day, if ALPA survives the next couple years that is, as I don't see them much more viable than USAir, but I doubt I'll see a USAir pilot wearing an ALPA pin in my career. Not until enough of the "Easties" retire will that happen.

Let's hope DALPA/NWALPA learned a few lessons on how NOT to do a seniority integration from the US Airways easties & westies... and hope that ALPA learned some lessons too.

We aren't done with the mergers, and we aren't done with airlines disappearing either, more than likely unfortunately. ALPA'd better start working on this - could you imagine another loss of so many pilots, what it would do to them? ALPA's "national union" and solidarity has been going the wrong direction for quite a while now. They need to re-focus on today's industry, with today's issues, and yes, since we can't have a RALPA, they are going to hopefully be forced to view things more the regional way since the regionals are gaining membership and the majors are losing.

 

[Options_SLAVE]

Sure if you use the ALPO foundation of economics. ALPO has a huge and useless economy of waste, with Prater alone sucking in a half a million a year in costs and your beloved Worthless getting a lifetime pension of $150,000.00 a year. The regionals would be well advised to get out of ALPO and get a seperate union to represent them.

ALPO is nothing other than a business, and if they want the regionals in their house it's for nothing other than a revenue stream.

From my calculations, SkyWest alone would add 3 million alone to ALPO coffers, how in the world can costs be that much? Answer in any way how it could costs that much to support?

There is no way that the regionals cost more to support than their dues pay, it's a business after all.

ALPO that is.........

Obviously, nobody gives a dam about the regionals.

Not that I disagree with most of what you said, but having been involved with leadership, I can say that there is a lot of expenses. Negotiations are very expensive alone. A company like Skywest could probably after a short time self-sustain, but they'd have to negotiate a contract first. At options, our negotiations cost us about $30,000 per week, just in travel expenses for the pilot negotiators, flight pay loss for those pilots, legal expenses (lawyers aren't cheap), hotels, etc. We're now negotiating every week non-stop. That's a lot of money. It adds up very quickly, and does not include the normal operating costs of running the local office and salaries involved with those employees, rent, etc.; Not to mention, if you've read any of the union busting books, such as Marty Levitt's Confessions of a Union Buster, you'll know that the company knows this too, and they know from their anti-union busting lawyers they hire that the easiest way to break a union is to break its bank account. That's where a national carrier comes in, and why little ol'e Options needed the IBT, we simply couldn't do it on our own, and ALPA wasn't an option.

Skywest MAY be able to pull it off, they're pretty big for a regional. Most of the others probably could not, save ASA & ComAir, and I doubt all 3 of them could do it in the black right away. As for all the others? No way. It'd be pretty easy for management to make things financially difficult for them, not to mention that remember, you don't have to be right to take people to court, but even if you're wrong, unless you can prove charges are frivolous, you still have to go to court and fight that legal battle, which is also expensive. A company could easily tie a fledgling union up in court to try to bankrupt them.

Having said that, I still want a RALPA. I think we need it. ;-)

 

[PCL_128]

Wow, you really are clueless.

Sure if you use the ALPO foundation of economics. ALPO has a huge and useless economy of waste, with Prater alone sucking in a half a million a year in costs and your beloved Worthless getting a lifetime pension of $150,000.00 a year. The regionals would be well advised to get out of ALPO and get a seperate union to represent them.

Prater's salary and pension does not appear as a line-item on a regional MEC's budget. The excess revenue that is produced by the dues from the legacy carriers pays for Prater. When I tell you that the regionals' costs exceed their revenue, I'm only talking about their own internal costs. Costs for items at National are not included.

ALPO is nothing other than a business, and if they want the regionals in their house it's for nothing other than a revenue stream.

I don't know why this is so difficult for you to understand: the regionals represent negative cash flow for the Association. They cost far more than the revenue they produce. This is really a simple concept.

From my calculations, SkyWest alone would add 3 million alone to ALPO coffers, how in the world can costs be that much? Answer in any way how it could costs that much to support?

Normal operating expenses don't cost that much, but the negotiating and SPC expenses during contract time cost far more. ALPA spends millions upon millions of dollars ever few years on each regional for contract negotiations. Just paying for union leave for the necessary reps can cost $1 million per year or more during Section 6. There goes 1/3rd of your dues revenue just on union leave. Start throwing in hotels, meals, office rent, rental cars, etc... and it all quickly adds up to exceed revenue by quite a bit. Honestly, it's not even close for most regionals. Skywest and ASA combined could probably come somewhat close to supporting themselves without any subsidy, but they still couldn't provide positive cash flow for the Association.

There is no way that the regionals cost more to support than their dues pay, it's a business after all.

You see, that's your problem. You are operating on the false assumption that it's a business. It isn't. It's a non-profit organization with the goal of advancing the profession. ALPA is willing to accept negative cash flow from most of its member pilot groups in order to help advance the profession by unifying under a single banner. You are so wrapped up in your irrational union hatred that you can't see the truth.

Obviously, nobody gives a dam about the regionals.

One of the National officers is a regional pilot and was elected by his peers (which were a majority of mainline pilots, by the way), so that's obviously not the case. Get over your union hate and see the facts.

 

[PCL_128]

Having said that, I still want a RALPA. I think we need it. ;-)

You've just destroyed all of your credibility. You've just laid out a perfect argument for why a RALPA would never work, but then you go ahead and say "what the hell, let's do it anyway!" Completely illogical and irresponsible.

 

[DoinTime]

the crap that ALPA came up with for a seniority integration was just that, crap,

With every word you demonstrate how little you know about seniority integration within ALPA, or even outside of ALPA for that matter. ALPA did not come up with the final list....a neutral arbitrator did. The America West MEC negotiated directed with the USAir MEC and they were unable to come to a consensus (most likely because Airways would not accept anything less than DOH). The arbitrator warned the USAir pilots prior to the ruling that they would not like his decision and that they should go back to the bargaining table with AmWest. They again refused to back off their position. The USAir guys got shafted and ALPA National had nothing to do with it. They did it to themselves.

But I sure tip my hat to their cunning and being able to so simply not only get control of the situation but RIP it out of ALPA's hands and thumping them on the head to boot, and now their one-list contract will be done THEIR way, not ALPA's.

Yeah...Look at how successful the Airways pilots have been.

Instead of compromising at the bargaining table, coming up with a mutually acceptable seniority list, then being able to tap the $250 million that Airways management had put on the table for a combined agreement now they work in a battle zone at war with their coworkers for the the same bankruptcy wages they agreed to years ago. The civil war drags down the economic prosperity of the company they work for and ultimately undermines any future success of independent contract negotiations (assuming USAPA will ever be able to provide an effective bargaining unit).

I guess they are looking on the bright side though...they have their seniority. At first glance you would never take them for being optimists.

 

[Options_SLAVE]

You've just destroyed all of your credibility. You've just laid out a perfect argument for why a RALPA would never work, but then you go ahead and say "what the hell, let's do it anyway!" Completely illogical and irresponsible.

Heheh. No, I said I still think we need it. I think I quantified we can't HAVE one in my statements. Doens't mean I don't want one or that we don't need one. We do. We just can't.

 

[Options_SLAVE]

With every word you demonstrate how little you know about seniority integration within ALPA, or even outside of ALPA for that matter. ALPA did not come up with the final list....a neutral arbitrator did. The America West MEC negotiated directed with the USAir MEC and they were unable to come to a consensus (most likely because Airways would not accept anything less than DOH). The arbitrator warned the USAir pilots prior to the ruling that they would not like his decision and that they should go back to the bargaining table with AmWest. They again refused to back off their position. The USAir guys got shafted and ALPA National had nothing to do with it. They did it to themselves.




Yeah...Look at how successful the Airways pilots have been.

Instead of compromising at the bargaining table, coming up with a mutually acceptable seniority list, then being able to tap the $250 million that Airways management had put on the table for a combined agreement now they work in a battle zone at war with their coworkers for the the same bankruptcy wages they agreed to years ago. The civil war drags down the economic prosperity of the company they work for and ultimately undermines any future success of independent contract negotiations (assuming USAPA will ever be able to provide an effective bargaining unit).

I guess they are looking on the bright side though...they have their seniority. At first glance you would never take them for being optimists.

To the victor goes the spoils. ALPA got beat, they lost. They were out-played by the US Air pilots, like it or not. I also don't think I was wrong at all regarding the USAir pilots' integration. I know it was an arbitrated decision and so did they. They voted ALPA off the island.

I do agree it's going to be a bitter battle now and probably will be worse for the company and all its employees. The AW MEC should have thought of that. Game over, for them.

Hind sight's 20/20, and ALPA has a terrible track record of merging seniority lists. They should seriously reconsider using the vagueness of ALLEGENY/MOWHAWK and developing a better policy - otherwise, the AW/USAir won't be the last of these fiasco's. Pilots will always fight for seniority, you know that - just watch what happens with Colgan. You think you guys won't fight for your seniority if it came to that?

Airline pilots have one philosophy in life - "it's all about me, and if you're junior to me, I don't care about it or you." MEC's excluded, we hope.

This is the real world, Doin' Time. The current situation from USAir was easily predicted.

 

[PCL_128]

You still don't even understand ALPA merger policy. The process is similar to ALG-Mohawk, but the guidelines are completely different. You keep talking about ALPA using the LPPs, but that's simply not the case. The LPPs aren't involved between ALPA/ALPA mergers. They had nothing to do with this merger. Have you even read the Nic award?

 

[DoinTime]

ind sight's 20/20, and ALPA has a terrible track record of merging seniority lists.

I'd like you to tell me who does have a good track record of merging pilot lists. Historically speaking ALPA mergers are the most attractive. A "policy" will never insure a smooth merger when the egos of pilots are involved for the same reasons you highlight in your post.

The only thing that makes any merger acceptable is when everyone accepts the end result for better or for worse (its much like getting married). In the Airways case the Airways pilots reneged on the binding decision from the arbitrator. There is no honor in such a callouss action and history will not forget those dishonorable men and women that executed that cowardly plan.

 

[Options_SLAVE]

ALPA merger policy is based very much on that, yes. I think it's criminal that their merger policy would allow such negativity for only one side in a merger.

No, I have not read the Nic award. Nor am I defending one side or the other, really. But I do know that putting a 2-year AW pilot over a 17-year USAir pilot on a seniority list is just plain wrong, and that's what they wanted to do. They certainly could have found a more fair way. Now, ALPA's been tossed and they will negotiate a different way. We can't change that. Hopefully, we can avoid it from occuring again in the future.