Decertify Union - Can ALPA Help?

[PCL_128]

1. You shouldn't criticize an award and claim it's "wrong" if you haven't even read the damned thing. That's absolutely asinine.

2. The most experienced integration arbitrator in the country and two pilot neutrals agreed on this award. I think they're slightly more credible on the issue than a guy that got fired from Options and now works at GoJet.

3. There will be no renegotiated seniority integration at USAirways. The arbitration was final and binding. Period. uSAPa has no way around that. Get used to it.

 

[Options_SLAVE]

I'd like you to tell me who does have a good track record of merging pilot lists. Historically speaking ALPA mergers are the most attractive. A "policy" will never insure a smooth merger when the egos of pilots are involved for the same reasons you highlight in your post.

The only thing that makes any merger acceptable is when everyone accepts the end result for better or for worse (its much like getting married). In the Airways case the Airways pilots reneged on the binding decision from the arbitrator. There is no honor in such a callouss action and history will not forget those dishonorable men and women that executed that cowardly plan.

Barf.


The only thing HISTORY will show is that the 59-year ALPA senior Easties refused to accept the hand that ALPA dealt them and they dropped them like a sack of rocks. Right or wrong, that's what history will show. They weren't the first carrier to dump ALPA, they probably won't be the last.

Where was ALPA's honor and HEROIC plan regarding TWA and what ALPA allowed to happen, there? ALPA sacrificed TWA in hopes of winning all of AA. And now they'll pay in court. Where is the HONOR in being a 17-year dues paying member at ALPA, only to now be junior to 2-year pilots? You think you're invulnerable to that? Does that leave a good taste in your mouth about ALPA?

Really, you're pathetic. You're an abused wife who has a black eye and blood running down her face and you won't press charges against your abusive husband who can do no wrong because "he loves you, and you love him". You're a regional pilot and are certainly more expendable than a TWA mainline pilot. You can't even see the forrest through the trees you are so engrossed in ALPA, your savior.

It really is comical that you can find NO FAULT, EVER, in ALPA. LoL

 

[Options_SLAVE]

1. You shouldn't criticize an award and claim it's "wrong" if you haven't even read the damned thing. That's absolutely asinine.

2. The most experienced integration arbitrator in the country and two pilot neutrals agreed on this award. I think they're slightly more credible on the issue than a guy that got fired from Options and now works at GoJet.

3. There will be no renegotiated seniority integration at USAirways. The arbitration was final and binding. Period. uSAPa has no way around that. Get used to it.

Wow. nice. I think #3 is a wait and see, they are planning on fighting that in court, are they not?

Look, I'm not disputing anything. You guys seem to discount or are just plain denying that the majority of USAir pilots thought ALPA sucked and kicked them out. I am not defending the USAir pilots, I merely am impressed that they did what they did - regardless of why you think that was the wrong thing to do, they voted that to happen. I think that alone proves there is much ALPA must improve on.



P.S. - Options offered all those "fired" (union supporter) pilots their jobs back, you didn't hear that news?

 

[DoinTime]

I think they're slightly more credible on the issue than a guy that got fired from Options and now works at GoJet.

Now that is funny!

A man's personal history speaks louder than their voice!

 

[PCL_128]

Wow. nice. I think #3 is a wait and see, they are planning on fighting that in court, are they not?

No, they aren't. They're planning on trying to get Doogie Parker to go along with new seniority negotiations, even though he's already made it clear that that isn't an option. Not to mention that it would result in the biggest DFR lawsuit in pilot union history. The Nic is binding and final. Deal with it.

Look, I'm not disputing anything. You guys seem to discount or are just plain denying that the majority of USAir pilots thought ALPA sucked and kicked them out.

The East pilots simply outnumbered the West. This was no great democratic statement, this was mob rule. The East raped the West. It's as simple as that. Don't glorify something that is despicable.

 

[Options_SLAVE]

Hmmm. don't put words in my mouth, then. I didn't glorify anything. It's you who does nothing but glorify ALPA who can do no wrong, regardless of how many people they screw every year, especially regional pilots, not counting TWA and the US Air "rape" of a seniority list merger which favored only the west.

 

[Options_SLAVE]

Now that is funny!

A man's personal history speaks louder than their voice!

I'm pretty proud of my personal history. Considering I was fired for supporting my Union, I hold my head up high regarding that. Just like a guy like you (1800 posts of attacking people behind a ficticious name) to try to kick a guy while he's down, though. Go ahead. You're a pinnacle pilot. I know what you're swimmin' in, it ain't that great to be comparin' histories.

 

[PCL_128]

ALPA does plenty wrong. It just isn't any of the things that you claim.

 

[FlyingDawg]

ALPA merger policy is based very much on that, yes. I think it's criminal that their merger policy would allow such negativity for only one side in a merger.

No, I have not read the Nic award. Nor am I defending one side or the other, really. But I do know that putting a 2-year AW pilot over a 17-year USAir pilot on a seniority list is just plain wrong, and that's what they wanted to do. They certainly could have found a more fair way. Now, ALPA's been tossed and they will negotiate a different way. We can't change that. Hopefully, we can avoid it from occuring again in the future.

If it was your decision what do you believe would be fair?

Relative position seems to me to be fair as everyone would be at the same percentile post merge as they were pre-merge.

 

[SaturnPilot]

ALPA is an easy entity to place blame upon when pilots are upset and without the facts.

ALPA merger policy is based very much on that, yes. I think it's criminal that their merger policy would allow such negativity for only one side in a merger.

Both sides were well aware of ALPA merger policy before this merger took place and had the opportunity to change it if they didn't like it. The negativity that came out on one side of this merger cannot reasonably be blamed on ALPA, in my opinion.

No, I have not read the Nic award. Nor am I defending one side or the other, really. But I do know that putting a 2-year AW pilot over a 17-year USAir pilot on a seniority list is just plain wrong, and that's what they wanted to do. They certainly could have found a more fair way.

Again, misplaced blame. Placing a 2 year AW pilot over a 17 year US pilot is in no way "what ALPA wanted to do". This is the decision that came from an independent arbitrator. ALPA stayed clear of this merger from the beginning because that is their policy, which they have to prevent favoring one side over another. If both parties were non-ALPA in this merger, they most likely would have acted the exact same way with the arbitrator, resulting in the exact same decision.

Let's be clear about the history here...US and AW began a merger in which ALPA's ONLY involvement was a policy written by representatives years before. US and AW then tried to reach an acceptable seniority agreement on their own, without ALPA involvement. When they were unable, they each decided to send the issue to arbitration, without ALPA involvement. When each side submitted their position to the arbitrator (non-ALPA), the East submitted a DOH position as the only acceptable outcome, without ALPA involvement. When the arbitrator told the East to bring him something other than DOH because they weren't going to get it with him, the East brought him back DOH, without ALPA involvement. The arbitrator then issued his list, without ALPA involvement.

The USAPA drive was a hail mary attempt to get away from the nic award.

 

[Filkster]

Why yes ALPA does have and all working dues paying ALPA members PAY for them with every pay check. Businesses have sales and ALPA pays upwards to 250K for peeps to RECRUIT new ALPA members. So go ahead and add your dues to the pile to pay for this great service, ALPA is 11Mil short per year at the moment...

RF

Does ALPA have a contact person who can help with decertification procedures for pilot groups who wish to oust current union and join ALPA?

Contact info please.

Thanks in advance for your help.

 

[PCL_128]

Why yes ALPA does have and all working dues paying ALPA members PAY for them with every pay check. Businesses have sales and ALPA pays upwards to 250K for peeps to RECRUIT new ALPA members. So go ahead and add your dues to the pile to pay for this great service, ALPA is 11Mil short per year at the moment...

RF

There is so much wrong information in the above post that I don't even know where to begin. Basically, every word is wrong. Just ignore it.

 

[BUDDHA145]

GO "RPA"!!!

 

[flyboyike]

Did you just say "ALPA shops?" I don't know about you, but I haven't machined anything lately.

-Goose

That's OK, I have.

 

[JoeMerchant]

ALPA does plenty wrong.

.....coming from the number one ALPA cheerleader....I love it.....

 

[Axel]

What a sea of noise.

 

[Filkster]

There is so much wrong information in the above post that I don't even know where to begin. Basically, every word is wrong. Just ignore it.

What is wrong? That anyone working for ALPA is paid from the dues of ALPA members?

That ALPA employs people to recruit ALPA members and help pilot groups become ALPA dues paying members?

That U pilots were paying ALPA about $11 million per year?

So what is wrong with it?

RF

 

[PCL_128]

What is wrong? That anyone working for ALPA is paid from the dues of ALPA members?

Regional pilot groups provide less dues revenue than their own annual expenses. That means that no regional pilot group is actually paying a dime for the National Officers, the staff, lobbying, etc... It all comes from the excess revenue produced by the legacy carriers.

That ALPA employs people to recruit ALPA members and help pilot groups become ALPA dues paying members?

ALPA does have staffers that do organizing work, but it's only a small part of what they do. There are no dedicated "recruiters" employed by ALPA. In addition, your absurd figure of $250k for these staffers is way off the mark. Organizing activities are handled by pilot volunteers and staffers from the Communications Department. No one in the Comm Dept makes anywhere close to that salary, even the managers. Try under $100k. Well under $100k.

That U pilots were paying ALPA about $11 million per year?

You said that ALPA is $11 million short. You fail to take into account that the $11 million in dues revenue from AAA/AWA partly went towards their own expenses. When taking into account all of their SPC activities and contract negotiations costs, they both probably cost the Association somewhere in the neighborhood of $7 million per year combined. After they left, those expenses disappeared, meaning that the shortfall is only about $4 million, far short of the $11 million that you claimed. In addition, ALPA has furloughed 50+ staffers since they lost the AAA/AWA groups and reduced MEC budgets to contain costs, bringing the shortfall even lower. We're probably looking at somewhere in the few hundred thousand dollar range.

So what is wrong with it?

Like I said, just about everything. But thanks for playing.

 

[Filkster]

Regional pilot groups provide less dues revenue than their own annual expenses. That means that no regional pilot group is actually paying a dime for the National Officers, the staff, lobbying, etc... It all comes from the excess revenue produced by the legacy carriers.

I guess you have point, but with ALPA now representing more regional pilots than legacy pilots than ALPA is upside down financially. So organizing a commuter airline would be a financial drain on ALPA. Hmmm I see. So losing the dues from U must have precipitated some changes at national anyway.

I won't go into the rest since you seem to give info, right and wrong in one direction.

How very dismissive. I am done, if you still insist that ALPA national grows money on trees than go ahead. I am going to find something more interesting to do than read your posts. Which would be to do just about anything.

Thanks for the reply.
RF