Decertify Union - Can ALPA Help?

[Options_SLAVE]

Ok.....Airways left because their crybaby pilots think they can preserve their status quo by defecting (not a representational or membership value issue). Meanwhile this little USAPA experiment is turning into one of the most spectacular failures of any organized pilot group in the history of aviation. Airways will be ALPA again (provided that Airways is able to survive the next couple years). The east pilots are old and they will retire soon enough. When they leave they will take their hostility and bitterness with them.

Who else of your "huge chunks of pilots" are removing themselves from ALPA?

Damn, Cap'n - how biga' chunks we need to discuss, how many more do you think ALPA can stomach losing? 5500 MAJOR airline pilots was HUGE, and they are NOT coming back anytime soon. In fact, I believe there's a 2-year minimum before another decert vote could happen when a new union comes in, right PCL-128?

Actually the whole Airways fiasco was caused by the ALPA (West) pilots' arbitration on seniority integration. The west pilots are outnumbered by the east pilots, yet the west pilots' ALPA was in charge. They forgot that all pilots have a vote, and a "percentage-based seniority integration" was "fair" only for the AW pilots. For their ALPA MEC to think that would fly proved FATAL.

I think it was a brilliant move on their pilots that formed the new union, as now THEY are in charge of contract negotiations, and as it should be, seniority has its priviledges and will now be respected.

Merging carriers is a b!tch, we all know that, and the AW/USAir merger was a worst-case scenario for ALPA, but only because for almost 100 years ALPA has simply ignored and chosen NOT come up with a standard merger policy, going instead with expensive, cumbersome, time consuming and debilitating individual arbitration and relying on the extremely vague swiss cheese called Allegeny/Mowhawk, which usually involves the buyer having its way with the group that got bought.

Well, that's life I guess, perhaps it's darwinism. To the victor goes the spoils. I can understand that. However the USAir pilots fought it, and caught ALPA with its pants down - the crap that ALPA came up with for a seniority integration was just that, crap, and was to the gratitude of the US Air pilots' 59 years of loyalty vs. America West which was how old? Personally I don't care, especially since I personally blame USAir for J4J and all that has done to our industry. But I sure tip my hat to their cunning and being able to so simply not only get control of the situation but RIP it out of ALPA's hands and thumping them on the head to boot, and now their one-list contract will be done THEIR way, not ALPA's.

USAir may be ALPA again some day, if ALPA survives the next couple years that is, as I don't see them much more viable than USAir, but I doubt I'll see a USAir pilot wearing an ALPA pin in my career. Not until enough of the "Easties" retire will that happen.

Let's hope DALPA/NWALPA learned a few lessons on how NOT to do a seniority integration from the US Airways easties & westies... and hope that ALPA learned some lessons too.

We aren't done with the mergers, and we aren't done with airlines disappearing either, more than likely unfortunately. ALPA'd better start working on this - could you imagine another loss of so many pilots, what it would do to them? ALPA's "national union" and solidarity has been going the wrong direction for quite a while now. They need to re-focus on today's industry, with today's issues, and yes, since we can't have a RALPA, they are going to hopefully be forced to view things more the regional way since the regionals are gaining membership and the majors are losing.

 

[Options_SLAVE]

Sure if you use the ALPO foundation of economics. ALPO has a huge and useless economy of waste, with Prater alone sucking in a half a million a year in costs and your beloved Worthless getting a lifetime pension of $150,000.00 a year. The regionals would be well advised to get out of ALPO and get a seperate union to represent them.

ALPO is nothing other than a business, and if they want the regionals in their house it's for nothing other than a revenue stream.

From my calculations, SkyWest alone would add 3 million alone to ALPO coffers, how in the world can costs be that much? Answer in any way how it could costs that much to support?

There is no way that the regionals cost more to support than their dues pay, it's a business after all.

ALPO that is.........

Obviously, nobody gives a dam about the regionals.

Not that I disagree with most of what you said, but having been involved with leadership, I can say that there is a lot of expenses. Negotiations are very expensive alone. A company like Skywest could probably after a short time self-sustain, but they'd have to negotiate a contract first. At options, our negotiations cost us about $30,000 per week, just in travel expenses for the pilot negotiators, flight pay loss for those pilots, legal expenses (lawyers aren't cheap), hotels, etc. We're now negotiating every week non-stop. That's a lot of money. It adds up very quickly, and does not include the normal operating costs of running the local office and salaries involved with those employees, rent, etc.; Not to mention, if you've read any of the union busting books, such as Marty Levitt's Confessions of a Union Buster, you'll know that the company knows this too, and they know from their anti-union busting lawyers they hire that the easiest way to break a union is to break its bank account. That's where a national carrier comes in, and why little ol'e Options needed the IBT, we simply couldn't do it on our own, and ALPA wasn't an option.

Skywest MAY be able to pull it off, they're pretty big for a regional. Most of the others probably could not, save ASA & ComAir, and I doubt all 3 of them could do it in the black right away. As for all the others? No way. It'd be pretty easy for management to make things financially difficult for them, not to mention that remember, you don't have to be right to take people to court, but even if you're wrong, unless you can prove charges are frivolous, you still have to go to court and fight that legal battle, which is also expensive. A company could easily tie a fledgling union up in court to try to bankrupt them.

Having said that, I still want a RALPA. I think we need it. ;-)

 

[PCL_128]

Wow, you really are clueless.

Sure if you use the ALPO foundation of economics. ALPO has a huge and useless economy of waste, with Prater alone sucking in a half a million a year in costs and your beloved Worthless getting a lifetime pension of $150,000.00 a year. The regionals would be well advised to get out of ALPO and get a seperate union to represent them.

Prater's salary and pension does not appear as a line-item on a regional MEC's budget. The excess revenue that is produced by the dues from the legacy carriers pays for Prater. When I tell you that the regionals' costs exceed their revenue, I'm only talking about their own internal costs. Costs for items at National are not included.

ALPO is nothing other than a business, and if they want the regionals in their house it's for nothing other than a revenue stream.

I don't know why this is so difficult for you to understand: the regionals represent negative cash flow for the Association. They cost far more than the revenue they produce. This is really a simple concept.

From my calculations, SkyWest alone would add 3 million alone to ALPO coffers, how in the world can costs be that much? Answer in any way how it could costs that much to support?

Normal operating expenses don't cost that much, but the negotiating and SPC expenses during contract time cost far more. ALPA spends millions upon millions of dollars ever few years on each regional for contract negotiations. Just paying for union leave for the necessary reps can cost $1 million per year or more during Section 6. There goes 1/3rd of your dues revenue just on union leave. Start throwing in hotels, meals, office rent, rental cars, etc... and it all quickly adds up to exceed revenue by quite a bit. Honestly, it's not even close for most regionals. Skywest and ASA combined could probably come somewhat close to supporting themselves without any subsidy, but they still couldn't provide positive cash flow for the Association.

There is no way that the regionals cost more to support than their dues pay, it's a business after all.

You see, that's your problem. You are operating on the false assumption that it's a business. It isn't. It's a non-profit organization with the goal of advancing the profession. ALPA is willing to accept negative cash flow from most of its member pilot groups in order to help advance the profession by unifying under a single banner. You are so wrapped up in your irrational union hatred that you can't see the truth.

Obviously, nobody gives a dam about the regionals.

One of the National officers is a regional pilot and was elected by his peers (which were a majority of mainline pilots, by the way), so that's obviously not the case. Get over your union hate and see the facts.

 

[PCL_128]

Having said that, I still want a RALPA. I think we need it. ;-)

You've just destroyed all of your credibility. You've just laid out a perfect argument for why a RALPA would never work, but then you go ahead and say "what the hell, let's do it anyway!" Completely illogical and irresponsible.

 

[DoinTime]

the crap that ALPA came up with for a seniority integration was just that, crap,

With every word you demonstrate how little you know about seniority integration within ALPA, or even outside of ALPA for that matter. ALPA did not come up with the final list....a neutral arbitrator did. The America West MEC negotiated directed with the USAir MEC and they were unable to come to a consensus (most likely because Airways would not accept anything less than DOH). The arbitrator warned the USAir pilots prior to the ruling that they would not like his decision and that they should go back to the bargaining table with AmWest. They again refused to back off their position. The USAir guys got shafted and ALPA National had nothing to do with it. They did it to themselves.

But I sure tip my hat to their cunning and being able to so simply not only get control of the situation but RIP it out of ALPA's hands and thumping them on the head to boot, and now their one-list contract will be done THEIR way, not ALPA's.

Yeah...Look at how successful the Airways pilots have been.

Instead of compromising at the bargaining table, coming up with a mutually acceptable seniority list, then being able to tap the $250 million that Airways management had put on the table for a combined agreement now they work in a battle zone at war with their coworkers for the the same bankruptcy wages they agreed to years ago. The civil war drags down the economic prosperity of the company they work for and ultimately undermines any future success of independent contract negotiations (assuming USAPA will ever be able to provide an effective bargaining unit).

I guess they are looking on the bright side though...they have their seniority. At first glance you would never take them for being optimists.

 

[Options_SLAVE]

You've just destroyed all of your credibility. You've just laid out a perfect argument for why a RALPA would never work, but then you go ahead and say "what the hell, let's do it anyway!" Completely illogical and irresponsible.

Heheh. No, I said I still think we need it. I think I quantified we can't HAVE one in my statements. Doens't mean I don't want one or that we don't need one. We do. We just can't.

 

[Options_SLAVE]

With every word you demonstrate how little you know about seniority integration within ALPA, or even outside of ALPA for that matter. ALPA did not come up with the final list....a neutral arbitrator did. The America West MEC negotiated directed with the USAir MEC and they were unable to come to a consensus (most likely because Airways would not accept anything less than DOH). The arbitrator warned the USAir pilots prior to the ruling that they would not like his decision and that they should go back to the bargaining table with AmWest. They again refused to back off their position. The USAir guys got shafted and ALPA National had nothing to do with it. They did it to themselves.




Yeah...Look at how successful the Airways pilots have been.

Instead of compromising at the bargaining table, coming up with a mutually acceptable seniority list, then being able to tap the $250 million that Airways management had put on the table for a combined agreement now they work in a battle zone at war with their coworkers for the the same bankruptcy wages they agreed to years ago. The civil war drags down the economic prosperity of the company they work for and ultimately undermines any future success of independent contract negotiations (assuming USAPA will ever be able to provide an effective bargaining unit).

I guess they are looking on the bright side though...they have their seniority. At first glance you would never take them for being optimists.

To the victor goes the spoils. ALPA got beat, they lost. They were out-played by the US Air pilots, like it or not. I also don't think I was wrong at all regarding the USAir pilots' integration. I know it was an arbitrated decision and so did they. They voted ALPA off the island.

I do agree it's going to be a bitter battle now and probably will be worse for the company and all its employees. The AW MEC should have thought of that. Game over, for them.

Hind sight's 20/20, and ALPA has a terrible track record of merging seniority lists. They should seriously reconsider using the vagueness of ALLEGENY/MOWHAWK and developing a better policy - otherwise, the AW/USAir won't be the last of these fiasco's. Pilots will always fight for seniority, you know that - just watch what happens with Colgan. You think you guys won't fight for your seniority if it came to that?

Airline pilots have one philosophy in life - "it's all about me, and if you're junior to me, I don't care about it or you." MEC's excluded, we hope.

This is the real world, Doin' Time. The current situation from USAir was easily predicted.

 

[PCL_128]

You still don't even understand ALPA merger policy. The process is similar to ALG-Mohawk, but the guidelines are completely different. You keep talking about ALPA using the LPPs, but that's simply not the case. The LPPs aren't involved between ALPA/ALPA mergers. They had nothing to do with this merger. Have you even read the Nic award?

 

[DoinTime]

ind sight's 20/20, and ALPA has a terrible track record of merging seniority lists.

I'd like you to tell me who does have a good track record of merging pilot lists. Historically speaking ALPA mergers are the most attractive. A "policy" will never insure a smooth merger when the egos of pilots are involved for the same reasons you highlight in your post.

The only thing that makes any merger acceptable is when everyone accepts the end result for better or for worse (its much like getting married). In the Airways case the Airways pilots reneged on the binding decision from the arbitrator. There is no honor in such a callouss action and history will not forget those dishonorable men and women that executed that cowardly plan.

 

[Options_SLAVE]

ALPA merger policy is based very much on that, yes. I think it's criminal that their merger policy would allow such negativity for only one side in a merger.

No, I have not read the Nic award. Nor am I defending one side or the other, really. But I do know that putting a 2-year AW pilot over a 17-year USAir pilot on a seniority list is just plain wrong, and that's what they wanted to do. They certainly could have found a more fair way. Now, ALPA's been tossed and they will negotiate a different way. We can't change that. Hopefully, we can avoid it from occuring again in the future.

 

[PCL_128]

1. You shouldn't criticize an award and claim it's "wrong" if you haven't even read the damned thing. That's absolutely asinine.

2. The most experienced integration arbitrator in the country and two pilot neutrals agreed on this award. I think they're slightly more credible on the issue than a guy that got fired from Options and now works at GoJet.

3. There will be no renegotiated seniority integration at USAirways. The arbitration was final and binding. Period. uSAPa has no way around that. Get used to it.

 

[Options_SLAVE]

I'd like you to tell me who does have a good track record of merging pilot lists. Historically speaking ALPA mergers are the most attractive. A "policy" will never insure a smooth merger when the egos of pilots are involved for the same reasons you highlight in your post.

The only thing that makes any merger acceptable is when everyone accepts the end result for better or for worse (its much like getting married). In the Airways case the Airways pilots reneged on the binding decision from the arbitrator. There is no honor in such a callouss action and history will not forget those dishonorable men and women that executed that cowardly plan.

Barf.


The only thing HISTORY will show is that the 59-year ALPA senior Easties refused to accept the hand that ALPA dealt them and they dropped them like a sack of rocks. Right or wrong, that's what history will show. They weren't the first carrier to dump ALPA, they probably won't be the last.

Where was ALPA's honor and HEROIC plan regarding TWA and what ALPA allowed to happen, there? ALPA sacrificed TWA in hopes of winning all of AA. And now they'll pay in court. Where is the HONOR in being a 17-year dues paying member at ALPA, only to now be junior to 2-year pilots? You think you're invulnerable to that? Does that leave a good taste in your mouth about ALPA?

Really, you're pathetic. You're an abused wife who has a black eye and blood running down her face and you won't press charges against your abusive husband who can do no wrong because "he loves you, and you love him". You're a regional pilot and are certainly more expendable than a TWA mainline pilot. You can't even see the forrest through the trees you are so engrossed in ALPA, your savior.

It really is comical that you can find NO FAULT, EVER, in ALPA. LoL

 

[Options_SLAVE]

1. You shouldn't criticize an award and claim it's "wrong" if you haven't even read the damned thing. That's absolutely asinine.

2. The most experienced integration arbitrator in the country and two pilot neutrals agreed on this award. I think they're slightly more credible on the issue than a guy that got fired from Options and now works at GoJet.

3. There will be no renegotiated seniority integration at USAirways. The arbitration was final and binding. Period. uSAPa has no way around that. Get used to it.

Wow. nice. I think #3 is a wait and see, they are planning on fighting that in court, are they not?

Look, I'm not disputing anything. You guys seem to discount or are just plain denying that the majority of USAir pilots thought ALPA sucked and kicked them out. I am not defending the USAir pilots, I merely am impressed that they did what they did - regardless of why you think that was the wrong thing to do, they voted that to happen. I think that alone proves there is much ALPA must improve on.



P.S. - Options offered all those "fired" (union supporter) pilots their jobs back, you didn't hear that news?

 

[DoinTime]

I think they're slightly more credible on the issue than a guy that got fired from Options and now works at GoJet.

Now that is funny!

A man's personal history speaks louder than their voice!

 

[PCL_128]

Wow. nice. I think #3 is a wait and see, they are planning on fighting that in court, are they not?

No, they aren't. They're planning on trying to get Doogie Parker to go along with new seniority negotiations, even though he's already made it clear that that isn't an option. Not to mention that it would result in the biggest DFR lawsuit in pilot union history. The Nic is binding and final. Deal with it.

Look, I'm not disputing anything. You guys seem to discount or are just plain denying that the majority of USAir pilots thought ALPA sucked and kicked them out.

The East pilots simply outnumbered the West. This was no great democratic statement, this was mob rule. The East raped the West. It's as simple as that. Don't glorify something that is despicable.

 

[Options_SLAVE]

Hmmm. don't put words in my mouth, then. I didn't glorify anything. It's you who does nothing but glorify ALPA who can do no wrong, regardless of how many people they screw every year, especially regional pilots, not counting TWA and the US Air "rape" of a seniority list merger which favored only the west.

 

[Options_SLAVE]

Now that is funny!

A man's personal history speaks louder than their voice!

I'm pretty proud of my personal history. Considering I was fired for supporting my Union, I hold my head up high regarding that. Just like a guy like you (1800 posts of attacking people behind a ficticious name) to try to kick a guy while he's down, though. Go ahead. You're a pinnacle pilot. I know what you're swimmin' in, it ain't that great to be comparin' histories.

 

[PCL_128]

ALPA does plenty wrong. It just isn't any of the things that you claim.

 

[FlyingDawg]

ALPA merger policy is based very much on that, yes. I think it's criminal that their merger policy would allow such negativity for only one side in a merger.

No, I have not read the Nic award. Nor am I defending one side or the other, really. But I do know that putting a 2-year AW pilot over a 17-year USAir pilot on a seniority list is just plain wrong, and that's what they wanted to do. They certainly could have found a more fair way. Now, ALPA's been tossed and they will negotiate a different way. We can't change that. Hopefully, we can avoid it from occuring again in the future.

If it was your decision what do you believe would be fair?

Relative position seems to me to be fair as everyone would be at the same percentile post merge as they were pre-merge.

 

[SaturnPilot]

ALPA is an easy entity to place blame upon when pilots are upset and without the facts.

ALPA merger policy is based very much on that, yes. I think it's criminal that their merger policy would allow such negativity for only one side in a merger.

Both sides were well aware of ALPA merger policy before this merger took place and had the opportunity to change it if they didn't like it. The negativity that came out on one side of this merger cannot reasonably be blamed on ALPA, in my opinion.

No, I have not read the Nic award. Nor am I defending one side or the other, really. But I do know that putting a 2-year AW pilot over a 17-year USAir pilot on a seniority list is just plain wrong, and that's what they wanted to do. They certainly could have found a more fair way.

Again, misplaced blame. Placing a 2 year AW pilot over a 17 year US pilot is in no way "what ALPA wanted to do". This is the decision that came from an independent arbitrator. ALPA stayed clear of this merger from the beginning because that is their policy, which they have to prevent favoring one side over another. If both parties were non-ALPA in this merger, they most likely would have acted the exact same way with the arbitrator, resulting in the exact same decision.

Let's be clear about the history here...US and AW began a merger in which ALPA's ONLY involvement was a policy written by representatives years before. US and AW then tried to reach an acceptable seniority agreement on their own, without ALPA involvement. When they were unable, they each decided to send the issue to arbitration, without ALPA involvement. When each side submitted their position to the arbitrator (non-ALPA), the East submitted a DOH position as the only acceptable outcome, without ALPA involvement. When the arbitrator told the East to bring him something other than DOH because they weren't going to get it with him, the East brought him back DOH, without ALPA involvement. The arbitrator then issued his list, without ALPA involvement.

The USAPA drive was a hail mary attempt to get away from the nic award.