Decertify Union - Can ALPA Help?

[SCE to AUX]

Does ALPA have a contact person who can help with decertification procedures for pilot groups who wish to oust current union and join ALPA?

Contact info please.

Thanks in advance for your help.

 

[CFIT]

Does ALPA have a contact person who can help with decertification procedures for pilot groups who wish to oust current union and join ALPA?

Contact info please.

Thanks in advance for your help.

Are you kidding?

Rez? Where art thou?

 

[Options_SLAVE]

You said that was already happening back in April of 2006. Gonna try again, huh?

 

[FlyingDawg]

You said that was already happening back in April of 2006. Gonna try again, huh?

I think what happened back then was several members tried to slate a set of officers in an attempt to takeover the local in the election process. When some of the Local leaders felt threatened they fought back by threatening to convict these members under the bylaws for speaking out against the union, something forbidden by local and international bylaws. The group attempting the takeover backed down and the current officers pretty much ran unopposed.


The RAH pilot group still feel they don't get their moneys worth in representation. Some recent developments have again brought this to the forefront.

Although a few different members are speaking out to again vote out the Teamsters, I personally don't believe it will ever happen. Too many line-pilots don't think ALPA is the way to go because they feel ALPA doesn't do a good job with regionals. Others support a in-house union, while others don't believe a in-house would have the internal mechanics and support of such items as strike funds etc...

Their are still some who support the Teamsters but the majority just don't give a poop. Remember the reality of the airline industry is just now hitting home at RAH. The first furloughs hit the street in Sept, and many still believe they are just at a stepping stone to the majors.

There are many, like myself, who do not believe a change would change our lives that much. Why bother?

Just consider RAH as a "house divided" and nothing will happen because of it. Teamsters, good or bad, are there to stay.

 

[Goose Egg]

Can ALPA help?

The answer, whether by deliberate means or merely unintentional ineptitude, is no.

-Goose

 

[J and E's Daddy]

A petition must be sent out and signed. If there are enough signautes, it goes to the national mediation board. Then a vote goes out for representation i.e ALPA vs. Teamsters. After ballots are casted, the winner becomes the new bargaining representative.

 

[PCL_128]

ALPA will not help you decertify a union, because ALPA's policy is to not raid other unions. I disagree with the policy, but it is what it is. In any case, if you need any help, send me a PM. I used to do lots of organizing work for ALPA, so I'm quite familiar with the procedures for decertification and certifying a new bargaining representative. Just don't expect ALPA to provide any assistance while you're still represented by the IBT.

 

[DoinTime]

ALPA will not help you decertify a union, because ALPA's policy is to not raid other unions. I disagree with the policy, but it is what it is. In any case, if you need any help, send me a PM. I used to do lots of organizing work for ALPA, so I'm quite familiar with the procedures for decertification and certifying a new bargaining representative. Just don't expect ALPA to provide any assistance while you're still represented by the IBT.

Although with all of the raiding that the IBT has been doing on ALPA properties I'm sure many would relish the opportunity to twist the knife in the back of the teamsters.

 

[PCL_128]

Although with all of the raiding that the IBT has been doing on ALPA properties I'm sure many would relish the opportunity to twist the knife in the back of the teamsters.

Agreed. Dave Bourne is on a scorched earth campaign with all of the raiding he's doing for the IBT. ALPA needs to re-think their policy. Their membership numbers are shrinking while other unions raid ALPA shops, but ALPA is still stuck in their old-school "no raids" thinking. I can understand not raiding AFL-CIO properties, because that's actually an AFL policy, but the IBT is not affiliated with the AFL any longer. In fact, they owe millions in back dues to the AFL.

 

[Goose Egg]

Their membership numbers are shrinking while other unions raid ALPA shops, but ALPA is still stuck in their old-school "no raids" thinking.

Did you just say "ALPA shops?" I don't know about you, but I haven't machined anything lately.

-Goose

 

[Options_SLAVE]

A petition must be sent out and signed. If there are enough signautes, it goes to the national mediation board. Then a vote goes out for representation i.e ALPA vs. Teamsters. After ballots are casted, the winner becomes the new bargaining representative.

To clarify, 30% of the Union members would have to sign and send in a card for such election, the NMB will then set a date for the vote. And during the vote, you can put in ANY union, not just ALPA or the Teamsters, not that there is anyone else really for pilots, but still would be possible, if there was another organization that would be interested, you could write them into the ballot as well, and the Union with the most votes becomes the new organization (if changed).

 

[PCL_128]

Did you just say "ALPA shops?" I don't know about you, but I haven't machined anything lately.

-Goose

"Shop" is simply a labor term and a legal term. All ALPA airlines are "agency shops" in legal terms, for instance. It has nothing to do with whether you've machined anything lately.

And Slave, the the required number of cards is 35%.

 

[DoinTime]

not that there is anyone else really for pilots

There is only one national pilot's union.

 

[Options_SLAVE]

Get off your knees, dude. It's embarrasing.


That national union you imagine is based in Utopia. It would screw you in a heart beat if it would save a mainline job. It's bad enough airlines are disappearing due to the economy, but on top of that your "national union" is losing huge chunks of pilots who are removing themselves from "utopia".

There will never be a true "national" union, as there is such a massive conflict of interest between the interests of mainline vs. the regionals. I don't see that EVER changing. The latest vote on the 401(k) issue should prove that to you. If mainline pilots would make the sacrifices necessary to put the RJ flying on their property then we could truly have a national union. Until then, it's "united we get your dues, but divided we stand at the table".

We need a RALPA. IT could be a national union, and would not face the conflict of interests at the bargaining tables that exist now every time a major goes to the table to discuss the regional flying, when currently many times it is ALPA representing both entities.

I'd vote for a RALPA.


And PCL_128, it's 35% of pilots to have submitted cards to the NMB to have a vote to vote in a Union, but it's only 30% required to call a vote to decertify a union.

 

[PCL_128]

The latest vote on the 401(k) issue should prove that to you.

The latest vote on the 401k issue proves you wrong, actually. The UAL status reps voted against the change and supported the "little guys." In fact, lots of reps that wouldn't have been affected by this dues increase still voted against it. The system worked, and you were proven wrong.

I'd vote for a RALPA.

That's because you don't understand the problems inherent in such a union. All of the regionals within ALPA don't even bring enough revenue to cover their own expenses. They are subsidized by the dues revenue of those mainline pilot groups that you hate so much. Put a ton of regional pilot groups together in "RALPA" and what do you get? A giant sucking sound of dues money going down the drain into a bottomless pit of debt, eventually leading to bankruptcy of your beloved "RALPA." Unless you want them all to pay 5% of their salary in dues, the regionals can't support their own union.

And PCL_128, it's 35% of pilots to have submitted cards to the NMB to have a vote to vote in a Union, but it's only 30% required to call a vote to decertify a union.

Actually, you're wrong there too. It requires 50%+ to hold a vote if you're already represented by a collective bargain agent. The number 30% isn't used for any proceeding under NMB rules that I'm aware of.

 

[Options_SLAVE]

I don't have the time right now to research it, but I'm pretty sure my #'s are right as this was an issue when we were organizing Options, and in fact there is actually an extremely unpopular, no-way-in-hell decertification effort being half-hazardly attempted right now at Options by a couple kool-aid drinking management-sucking pilots.


I didn't say they could afford it, I said they need it (RALPA). I agree, it would be very hard to fund it. In fact, this is why I quite frankly just can't understand why the pilots at Net Jets broke away from the Teamsters to do it on their own. They will have the same exact problems trying to run their pilot group of 4,000 pilots with their funds, which I believe are now 1.5% of their GROSS (not BASE) pay, which was a little increase in revenue, but only amounts to around 1.5 to an increasing 2.5M per year (in monies that would have gone to National) by 2013. There are a lot more regional pilots than there are Net Jet pilots, so I do not see it as an impossible feat, but agree it would be hard to get it going and would be underfunded, although maybe they could opt to not buy so many sandwiches or send people to hawaii for meetings.

Doin'Time was having his utopian moment, I was just having mine. ;-)

 

[DoinTime]

It's bad enough airlines are disappearing due to the economy, but on top of that your "national union" is losing huge chunks of pilots who are removing themselves from "utopia".

Ok.....Airways left because their crybaby pilots think they can preserve their status quo by defecting (not a representational or membership value issue). Meanwhile this little USAPA experiment is turning into one of the most spectacular failures of any organized pilot group in the history of aviation. Airways will be ALPA again (provided that Airways is able to survive the next couple years). The east pilots are old and they will retire soon enough. When they leave they will take their hostility and bitterness with them.

Who else of your "huge chunks of pilots" are removing themselves from ALPA?

 

[PCL_128]

I don't have the time right now to research it, but I'm pretty sure my #'s are right as this was an issue when we were organizing Options

You can find the information right here:http://www.nmb.gov/representation/faqs-ola.html

 

[DoinTime]

I didn't say they could afford it, I said they need it (RALPA). I agree, it would be very hard to fund it.

RALPA has already existed once. It failed the first time, why do you think any different this time?

 

[CFIT]

That's because you don't understand the problems inherent in such a union. All of the regionals within ALPA don't even bring enough revenue to cover their own expenses. They are subsidized by the dues revenue of those mainline pilot groups that you hate so much. Put a ton of regional pilot groups together in "RALPA" and what do you get? A giant sucking sound of dues money going down the drain into a bottomless pit of debt, eventually leading to bankruptcy of your beloved "RALPA." Unless you want them all to pay 5% of their salary in dues, the regionals can't support their own union.

Sure if you use the ALPO foundation of economics. ALPO has a huge and useless economy of waste, with Prater alone sucking in a half a million a year in costs and your beloved Worthless getting a lifetime pension of $150,000.00 a year. The regionals would be well advised to get out of ALPO and get a seperate union to represent them.

ALPO is nothing other than a business, and if they want the regionals in their house it's for nothing other than a revenue stream.

From my calculations, SkyWest alone would add 3 million alone to ALPO coffers, how in the world can costs be that much? Answer in any way how it could costs that much to support?

There is no way that the regionals cost more to support than their dues pay, it's a business after all.

ALPO that is.........

Obviously, nobody gives a dam about the regionals.