DE Rides

ShawnC

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I was thinking about an upcoming DE ride that I have ahead. I have been hearing stories about some of my friends DEs that they have lived though.

One in particular comes to mind where the DE(Jaybird might know who I am talking about) will actaully take over while you are doing the run up and say that you are ready to the tower. And speeds the flight up rapidily He responds that "He likes to do things fast." I consider this dangerous.

If I have him for my DE I was wondering who is PIC during the DE ride, the DE or me. I was wondering this would I be allowed to take over from him and tell him to stop under FAR 91.13?
 

bobbysamd

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PIC on checkrides

The examinee is always PIC on a checkride. You're in charge. Just be very diplomatic and try to work with the guy.

Good CRM experience, by the way.
 

mwaugh

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61.47 (b) says the DE is not PIC.

Some DEs like to speed up the checkride as a way of adding pressure. I've generally taken the "go along and get along" approach. However - if it's getting too quick for you, then slow it down. You are the PIC, it's your checkride, make it work for you.

Mat
 

jaybird

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Jmac, i think he was quoting 91.13 for Careless or reckless operation, read the subpart! Shawn, remember the Sheriff's Dept. helocopter crash a few months back. It was during an FAA checkride, and I think the FAA examiner was responsable.
 

flydog

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The DE is the PIC in most cases and has the final authority as to the safety of the flight. There have been several accidents during checkrides where the DE was held responsible. The reason for this is when two pilots are at the controls and both are qualified for the type of operation and aircraft the most senior is usually considered the PIC when two crewmembers arent required regardless of who is in the left seat. Depending on the type of checkride in most instances the examinee cannot act as PIC anyway as with a multi ride, private, type rating, etc.
 

avbug

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Part of the practical test for any certificate or rating is a requirement for the examiner to investigate the judgement of the applicant. An examiner may ask you to hurry, skip a checklist, fly up a canyon, land on a road, fly with a squawk, take the test during a period of thunderstorm activity, or other potential pitfalls to see how you react. Your ability to set standards of safety, to not compromise the regulations under which you fly, and to show good judgement is being watched closely. Don't let anybody push you or rush you.

Mwaugh correctly identified 14 CFR 61.47(b) as the appropriate reference governing who will be designated pilot-in-command for the duration of the practical test, and it is printed in excerpt, as follows:

§ 61.47 Status of an examiner who is authorized by the Administrator to conduct practical tests.

(b) The examiner is not the pilot in command of the aircraft during the practical test unless the examiner agrees to act in that capacity for the flight or for a portion of the flight by prior arrangement with:

(1) The applicant; or

(2) A person who would otherwise act as pilot in command of the flight or for a portion of the flight.

You are expected, as pilot-in-command, to demonstrate your authority and command of the aircraft. The examiner is not in charge; you are. Do not allow yourself to be rushed. Do not go along and get along. That's not your function. You are in command, your judgement is in question and your certification is at stake. Demonstrate confidence in your actions by stating exactly what you will and will not do. If you are told to rush, state that you will not, and state how you will do it.

Purposefully use the checklist. Speed kills. Take the time you need, and plan ahead. Get clearing turns done, and clear each turn, not just the one at the beginning of the flight. Take charge, and demonstrate that you are the master of the airplane, and the flight. Show confidence such that the outcome of the flight and any maneuver is never in doubt. Know your limitations, and do not hesitate to refuse something, or to do it in a more proper way.

Remember that the exminer can ask anything of you which is covered directly or by implication in the practical test standards. That which is not covered by the PTS may not be used to measure your ability, or required of you. Good luck!!
 

A1FlyBoy

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It is your check ride, you are PIC.

On your ground briefing OR in the airplane before you taxi, YOU must establish what the roles between you and the other pilot will be and who will do what/when.

Be clear, concise, and leave no room for anyone to assume.
 

avbug

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Flydog,

"The DE is the PIC in most cases and has the final authority as to the safety of the flight. There have been several accidents during checkrides where the DE was held responsible. The reason for this is when two pilots are at the controls and both are qualified for the type of operation and aircraft the most senior is usually considered the PIC when two crewmembers arent required regardless of who is in the left seat. Depending on the type of checkride in most instances the examinee cannot act as PIC anyway as with a multi ride, private, type rating, etc."

This is absolutely incorrect. It's a very common misconception, but it's absolutely incorrect. Many instructors, likewise, feel that they are the pilot in command when flying with a student who is qualified to act as PIC; again, this is incorrect. (I once pushed an instructor out of the cockpit who took that attitude; he had the gall to tell me that as an instructor, he was the legal pilot-in-command of the airplane for the duration of the flight. His ignorance of the regulation alone, cost him the flight).

The examiner is NOT the PIC except by prior arrangement. This is the intent of the FAA; it is purposeful. The applicant is most certainly expected to act as pilot in command, and holds the authority of that position.

The pilot with the most experience or the higher certification is NOT automatically the pilot-in-command. He or she may hold a share of liability in actions taken during the flight, but unless designated as PIC and acting as PIC, he or she is NOT the PIC.

You stated that "Depending on the type of checkride in most instances the examinee cannot act as PIC anyway as with a multi ride, private, type rating, etc." Again, this is entirely incorrect. Look closely at 14 CFR 61.31(k)(2)(i):

(k) Exceptions.

(2) The rating limitations of this section do not apply to -

(i) An applicant when taking a practical test given by an examiner;
 

AZaviator

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ShawnC

I had the exact thing happen on my CFII ride. The second I finished my run up, the examiner took the controls and taxied the aircraft up to the "hold short" line and called the tower for takeoff. As soon as I saw what he was doing, I told him I wasn't ready to go, and still had to do my takeoff briefing, set up the navs, etc. He laughed and gave me back the aircraft and told me he just wanted to see what I'd do when a student tried rushing me.

If this happens on your checkride, just politely tell the examiner you aren't ready. If they have a problem with it, I would definetly think twice about doing the checkride. But chances are they just want to see how you react when being rushed. If its a checkride for any CFI rating, I"m about 99% sure they are seeing how you'd react to a student rushing you.

Good luck!
 

ShawnC

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Yeah Luckett is the one that I have been told about. Yeah I heard about the Sherriffs wreck (I lived in Tampa then).

Thanks I will be be able to confidently assert my right as PIC, thanks for all the help.
 

A Squared

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I guess that the appropriate regulations have been pointed out to Flydog, so I won't repeat them. I will say that on my Private Pilot checkride, the DE said to me "you are the PIC on this flight, I'm taking my pilot certificate out of my wallet and leaving it on my desk......"
 

bigD

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I'm curious - what does one do to become a DE?
 

chperplt

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ShawnC

Are you at Riddle in DAB? I flew with a DE there with that name a few years ago.
 

bobbysamd

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DE quals

The FAA will appoint an extremely experienced pilot as a DE. Usually, appointment is based on need for a DE in that locale. You don't have to be a Wright Brother with fifty zillion hours to be appointed as a Designated Examiner or have a lot of diverse flying experience, but most who are appointed have that kind of background. I believe that you have to have a CFI and you must hold all ratings for the practicals that you will administer. You don't necessarily have to hold an ATP to be appointed as a DE.

The approval process might take a couple of years and the potential DE must pay for most of the costs. DE's receive training from the Flight Standards Branch at the Monroney Center in Okie City. I am familiar with the training. It's very good training. I received an abbreviated version when I was in CAP. The ASI who trained DE's was a CAP member and set up the course for CAP check pilots.

An important rule about DE's is by reg their primary source of income cannot be flight test fees. In addition, they cannot give more than two practicals per day. Quite a number of DE's flaunt that rule, though.

Hope that helps.
 
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chperplt

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Ever since Riddle DAB lost its self examining authority, a few DEs have become resident examiners and do upwards or 3 or 4 a day. If the DE mentioned above is the same examiner I think he is, he quit is job as a captain for Eagle to do checkrides full time. At $250 a pop, that's quite a good chunk of change he's pulling in.
 

jaybird

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chper, you are correct, he did have a job at eagle and he said he left because he didn't like it. Riddle didn't lose self-examing authority though. The FAA required it only for the commercial rating.
I know KL does check rides 7 days a week weather permitting. I also hear the process to become a DE is very political.
 

chperplt

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I meant for the commercial course... I instructed there in 2000/2001...

Unless things have changed, he wasn't the biggest abuser though.. BR was much worse.
 

jaybird

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Yeah, BR was bad. Luckily, well I guess it depends on how you look at it, he got called to active duty. The new ball buster is NE.
 

chperplt

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RB got called up.. how funny. Between UAL, flying in the guard, and all the other crap he did, it always surprised me how he could get all those checkrides done... until I flew with him that is.

Here I am going for my instrument rating. He shows up about an hour late, hops in the airplane and before I could say hello, he says start this thing up and lets go. On the taxi out the oral began and didn't end until we were back on the ground. He tells me to hold over OMN, and not even established in the hold he has me do a couple steep turns. Back inbound now and it's unusual attitude time.. Did the entire checkride with oral in less time than it takes most people to get dressed in the morning.
 
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