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TDTURBO
Who says you have to fly Ag to fly under powerlines routinely?
I used to fly under them all the time in Gobles, Mi. This guy I knew there had his own private grass strip and it was a bit short, like 1300 ft. To land you had to go over the supermarket and under the powerlines, high-tension, or you would certainly run out of ground roll. There was really only one safe way out of the field and that was the opposite direction of the powerlines. If the wind shifted 180 while you were visiting you had to wait for another change. I guess thats as close to bush flying I ever got and there was never an accident in the 50 years it was in use. Now if your talking about the 15 footers.........forget it.
I used to fly under them all the time in Gobles, Mi. This guy I knew there had his own private grass strip and it was a bit short, like 1300 ft. To land you had to go over the supermarket and under the powerlines, high-tension, or you would certainly run out of ground roll. There was really only one safe way out of the field and that was the opposite direction of the powerlines. If the wind shifted 180 while you were visiting you had to wait for another change. I guess thats as close to bush flying I ever got and there was never an accident in the 50 years it was in use. Now if your talking about the 15 footers.........forget it.
Flying under powerlines isn't rocket science. However, the problem with going under them is that very often, a fence underlies the lines...power lines and phone lines generally follow property lines rather than cutting through them, and most of the time, an obstacle is beneath the powerline.
The problem itself is that the fence often isn't seen, or gives the deceiving appearance of having enough room...but there isn't, really.
Powerlines with longer runs between poles also tend to sag, with far less clearance in the center. High tension and small lines alike can have additional smaller wires, guy wires, supports, and other cables or lines running beneath them or around them, and these may be invisible until it's too late.
Lines with long runs between poles tend to snag, and then provide some give. This prevents their breakage, and often these are the most dangerous. They'll wrap in your prop instead of being cut, and even for ag airplanes that carry line cutters on the canopy and gear (big metal blades intended to cut power lines)...they're ineffective due to the extra give provided by the line. I've seen the tailsection sliced away by a line before, and was once behind my boss when he cut through four lines at once.
Flying over lines is much safer where possible; I'll do everything I can to avoid flying under powerlines. There are just too many hidden dangers, and the more experience you have around them, the more afraid of them you tend to be. Personally, I have a lot of respect and more than a modicum of fear for them.
Hyper, my first commercial flying job was ag flying. I began doing that as soon as I got out of high school. No, I haven't done everything, but ag is something I do know about.
The problem itself is that the fence often isn't seen, or gives the deceiving appearance of having enough room...but there isn't, really.
Powerlines with longer runs between poles also tend to sag, with far less clearance in the center. High tension and small lines alike can have additional smaller wires, guy wires, supports, and other cables or lines running beneath them or around them, and these may be invisible until it's too late.
Lines with long runs between poles tend to snag, and then provide some give. This prevents their breakage, and often these are the most dangerous. They'll wrap in your prop instead of being cut, and even for ag airplanes that carry line cutters on the canopy and gear (big metal blades intended to cut power lines)...they're ineffective due to the extra give provided by the line. I've seen the tailsection sliced away by a line before, and was once behind my boss when he cut through four lines at once.
Flying over lines is much safer where possible; I'll do everything I can to avoid flying under powerlines. There are just too many hidden dangers, and the more experience you have around them, the more afraid of them you tend to be. Personally, I have a lot of respect and more than a modicum of fear for them.
Hyper, my first commercial flying job was ag flying. I began doing that as soon as I got out of high school. No, I haven't done everything, but ag is something I do know about.
flywithastick
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- Sep 16, 2002
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- 684
Avbug -
What would be the best way to get into Ag flying these days. All I hear is that the margins have dried up, acrage (?) utilizing aerial spray is decreasing and insurance is out of sight.
I don't know if I'd like to do it for the next 20-30 years, but it is interesting to consider for a 2-3 year job, maybe more.
What would be the best way to get into Ag flying these days. All I hear is that the margins have dried up, acrage (?) utilizing aerial spray is decreasing and insurance is out of sight.
I don't know if I'd like to do it for the next 20-30 years, but it is interesting to consider for a 2-3 year job, maybe more.
JetPilot500
Well-known member
- Joined
- Dec 5, 2001
- Posts
- 335
Flywithastick,
I might be able to answer some of your ag-pilot questions. First of all, you're right about some of the ag flying drying up, increases in premiums coupled with more competition from ground spraying rigs have taken some of their business. I'm in the south plains of the Texas panhandle where our economy is highly driven by agriculture, so there are many aerial ag operations around. I know several operators quite well so I can tell you what they have told me. If you want to get into ag flying, you need around 500 TT with significant tailwheel time. Don't expect to get right into a turbine 'till you have about 1000 hrs. ag time. A good way for pilots to get into ag flying is to find a contractor who is flying for the Boll Weevil Eradication Program. The season is winding down here in TX, But I know a few other states have a similar program. There are several operators for the BWEP using Pawnees and other piston Radial aircraft. It might also help to go to an ag flight school, but this is not always necessary. I hope this helps. I'm a little hesitant to give too much more info on ag flying in a public manner given the hightened alert status associated with that type of flying. PM me if you need some more info. (websites, etc..)
I might be able to answer some of your ag-pilot questions. First of all, you're right about some of the ag flying drying up, increases in premiums coupled with more competition from ground spraying rigs have taken some of their business. I'm in the south plains of the Texas panhandle where our economy is highly driven by agriculture, so there are many aerial ag operations around. I know several operators quite well so I can tell you what they have told me. If you want to get into ag flying, you need around 500 TT with significant tailwheel time. Don't expect to get right into a turbine 'till you have about 1000 hrs. ag time. A good way for pilots to get into ag flying is to find a contractor who is flying for the Boll Weevil Eradication Program. The season is winding down here in TX, But I know a few other states have a similar program. There are several operators for the BWEP using Pawnees and other piston Radial aircraft. It might also help to go to an ag flight school, but this is not always necessary. I hope this helps. I'm a little hesitant to give too much more info on ag flying in a public manner given the hightened alert status associated with that type of flying. PM me if you need some more info. (websites, etc..)
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Why did we go under in formation? Because we were in formation at the end of the field when posed with the choice. We did a lot of our spraying in formation. This allowed precise spacing when working a field with several airplanes, eliminated skips between passes, and cut down on the number of flags needed for any given pass. This reduced cost and produced a better finished product (a field with few or no skips).
We also did the formation initially because they figured it was the safest place to stick a new snot nosed kid like me; sandwitched between two experierienced pilots where I couldn't hurt anything.
As far as getting into ag, the process hasn't changed, much. Generally one needs to find an operator who is willing to take you on. Go to work loading chemical and doing other chores for the operator, and over the next few seasons, you'll get a chance to start working into a seat by getting an hour or two here and there putting out rinse water at higher altitudes.
Generally folks will attend an ag school to get a rough introduction to what it's all about, though not always. Some good hands-on experience doing conventional gear and contact flying is a real plus.
The operators to look for are ones who have a lot of acerage to handle, and carry an extra light ag airplane such as a pawnee or brave. Generally you'll get to spray out 50 gallons of rinse here and there, and you'll eventually be worked into a position where the operator can use you to do pesticide work, and eventually, herbicide work. If you can get into a position doing seeding or fertilizer work, so much the better; you'll fly more, and fly higher, and you don't need so much experience. The loads are a lot lighter, and you won't be turning so much or loading the airplane nearly as much as flying chemical.
Regardless of your turbine background, plan on flying piston for quite a while. It's largely an insurance thing, plus the fact that there are a lot more piston airplanes than turbine. Most turbine seats are taken by more experienced ag pilots who tend to keep those positions from year to year.
You're right that the number of positions are drying up, as is much of the work. This year was probably one of the worst that ag operators in general have ever seen. The business doesn't make you rich anyway; since the late 40's the business has increased from around a buck an acre to four bucks an acre (plus gallonage and chemical). You won't see that small an increase in hardly anything else...expenses have increased a lot more, but operators are restricted in what they can charge by what the farmer is willing, or able to pay.
The advent of larger capacity turbine ag aircraft has meant fewer jobs, and higher requirements for the jobs. That means less starting positions, and that existing positions have much higher competitive demands with respect to pilot background. Widespread droughts have hurt a lot. The whole political scene, with flight restrictions and the public panics over ag airplanes and white dust, hurt a lot of operators and put a number right out of business.
Conversely, once you do have the experience, it's a smaller field to search in. That is, qualified and experienced ag pilots aren't as plentiful as pilots in most other types of flying. Accordingly, sometimes it may be easier to find work than if one's area is corporate, or airline, etc. Or a lot harder, because the number of opportunities are a lot less.
The real crunch is the seasonality of the work; it's hard to hold down a regular job in other areas of flying, or doing much else at all, because your year will be so cut-up. Some guys will find year-round rice seats and hold them, others will jump from job to job, doing forestry work in the southeast, wheat in Kansas, sugar beets up north, and then catching boll wevil or other work as it pops up. For someone starting out, it's a matter of finding what's left. If you're interested, you can get a taste of what it's about by looking into an ag school (though it isn't absolutely necessary; operators are still out there who will train you over time...but be prepared to be very patient, do a lot of dog work, and get paid very little).
Good luck!
We also did the formation initially because they figured it was the safest place to stick a new snot nosed kid like me; sandwitched between two experierienced pilots where I couldn't hurt anything.
As far as getting into ag, the process hasn't changed, much. Generally one needs to find an operator who is willing to take you on. Go to work loading chemical and doing other chores for the operator, and over the next few seasons, you'll get a chance to start working into a seat by getting an hour or two here and there putting out rinse water at higher altitudes.
Generally folks will attend an ag school to get a rough introduction to what it's all about, though not always. Some good hands-on experience doing conventional gear and contact flying is a real plus.
The operators to look for are ones who have a lot of acerage to handle, and carry an extra light ag airplane such as a pawnee or brave. Generally you'll get to spray out 50 gallons of rinse here and there, and you'll eventually be worked into a position where the operator can use you to do pesticide work, and eventually, herbicide work. If you can get into a position doing seeding or fertilizer work, so much the better; you'll fly more, and fly higher, and you don't need so much experience. The loads are a lot lighter, and you won't be turning so much or loading the airplane nearly as much as flying chemical.
Regardless of your turbine background, plan on flying piston for quite a while. It's largely an insurance thing, plus the fact that there are a lot more piston airplanes than turbine. Most turbine seats are taken by more experienced ag pilots who tend to keep those positions from year to year.
You're right that the number of positions are drying up, as is much of the work. This year was probably one of the worst that ag operators in general have ever seen. The business doesn't make you rich anyway; since the late 40's the business has increased from around a buck an acre to four bucks an acre (plus gallonage and chemical). You won't see that small an increase in hardly anything else...expenses have increased a lot more, but operators are restricted in what they can charge by what the farmer is willing, or able to pay.
The advent of larger capacity turbine ag aircraft has meant fewer jobs, and higher requirements for the jobs. That means less starting positions, and that existing positions have much higher competitive demands with respect to pilot background. Widespread droughts have hurt a lot. The whole political scene, with flight restrictions and the public panics over ag airplanes and white dust, hurt a lot of operators and put a number right out of business.
Conversely, once you do have the experience, it's a smaller field to search in. That is, qualified and experienced ag pilots aren't as plentiful as pilots in most other types of flying. Accordingly, sometimes it may be easier to find work than if one's area is corporate, or airline, etc. Or a lot harder, because the number of opportunities are a lot less.
The real crunch is the seasonality of the work; it's hard to hold down a regular job in other areas of flying, or doing much else at all, because your year will be so cut-up. Some guys will find year-round rice seats and hold them, others will jump from job to job, doing forestry work in the southeast, wheat in Kansas, sugar beets up north, and then catching boll wevil or other work as it pops up. For someone starting out, it's a matter of finding what's left. If you're interested, you can get a taste of what it's about by looking into an ag school (though it isn't absolutely necessary; operators are still out there who will train you over time...but be prepared to be very patient, do a lot of dog work, and get paid very little).
Good luck!
H2OK9
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jan 10, 2002
- Posts
- 74
Avbug, no disrespect but it sounds like you're telling tales out of school, the next thing you're going to tell me is there's a feller in there that'll pay you ten dollars to sing into a can! I"ve never heard of formation flying for Ag guys. Now maybe they just do things a little differently where you are than up north. but in Dakota Territorry, It's not a bad business, the pay is pretty decent (well It's a living) and there's no formation flying, hell there's not enough crop sprayers up there to make a formation. Anyway just bustin' your chops a bit. see ya
Waterdog,
I'm going to guess that you don't have any ag experience, based on your comments. What I described is what I did, and for the reasons I provided. Team flying and formation operations are not uncommon.
Many operators have one airplane and one pilot, and quite obviously, don't do it. We worked three airplanes together, because we had three airplanes and four pilots, and would rotate pilots occasionally. We'd also do single ship work, and split up for clean up work. However, at .25 a flag, we could cut down on a lot of flags by doing it in formation and spacing off one another. Sometimes very tight, sometimes very loose; the circumstances dictated how we flew.
Today much of this is negated by using SATLOC and other GPS guidance systems, that guide you on a pass using a display much like a localizer, but outside the cockpit. Larger airplanes have replaced several small airplanes.
Nothing has been embellished or altered; that's the way we flew. If you really think ag is good business today, even in the Dakotas, stop in and have a chat with some operators. You may feel differently. I don't know anybody who made a good living this year. Most operators got one fifth of their normal flying. Insurance has gone up considerably. THe work just isn't there. Many of the more economical poisons and herbicides have been taken off the market, or are seeing such reduced useage that they're no longer economically viable. Costs are skyrocketing.
It used to be a good business that could earn a livable wage...but in very few cases is that true, today. Most ag operators have something else going on the side to keep them afloat. Many operators have turned to firefighting as their main source of income, because the ag work just isn't cutting it. Few make their sole income any more from ag. Perhaps you live in an area where this is different, but I doubt it.
I'm going to guess that you don't have any ag experience, based on your comments. What I described is what I did, and for the reasons I provided. Team flying and formation operations are not uncommon.
Many operators have one airplane and one pilot, and quite obviously, don't do it. We worked three airplanes together, because we had three airplanes and four pilots, and would rotate pilots occasionally. We'd also do single ship work, and split up for clean up work. However, at .25 a flag, we could cut down on a lot of flags by doing it in formation and spacing off one another. Sometimes very tight, sometimes very loose; the circumstances dictated how we flew.
Today much of this is negated by using SATLOC and other GPS guidance systems, that guide you on a pass using a display much like a localizer, but outside the cockpit. Larger airplanes have replaced several small airplanes.
Nothing has been embellished or altered; that's the way we flew. If you really think ag is good business today, even in the Dakotas, stop in and have a chat with some operators. You may feel differently. I don't know anybody who made a good living this year. Most operators got one fifth of their normal flying. Insurance has gone up considerably. THe work just isn't there. Many of the more economical poisons and herbicides have been taken off the market, or are seeing such reduced useage that they're no longer economically viable. Costs are skyrocketing.
It used to be a good business that could earn a livable wage...but in very few cases is that true, today. Most ag operators have something else going on the side to keep them afloat. Many operators have turned to firefighting as their main source of income, because the ag work just isn't cutting it. Few make their sole income any more from ag. Perhaps you live in an area where this is different, but I doubt it.
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