DALPA DFW LEC comments on ASA/CMR

[InclusiveScope]

ATR-drivr,
You are right---we don't assign the planes to the specific routes--primarily because Fred Greed and Leo parked too many of our planes and ordered too many RJs---thinking that businessmen would rather have "frequency" rather than comfort on 3 hour flights.
Bye Bye--General Lee

General,
I guess you haven't heard the term "time is money". The only advantages the legacy carriers have anymore is the number of destinations and the frequencies. Take away those two advantages and you might as well stick a fork in them. The RJs are an important part of these two remaining advantages.

 

[General Lee]

Inclusivescope,


I agree--time is money, and the big money is with the businessmen who book a day or so in advance and pay more. Guess what? They don't like RJs---especially on longer flights. If you pi$$ enough of them off--they will cause you to lower your fares to just fill seats---and we are left with what we have today: Full airplanes with not enough businessmen on them. If you don't think that a regular business traveller who likes to work while flying doesn't enjoy the RJ experience--then you haven't talked to many. I have. I also read a large Wall St. Journal Weekend article about the hatred of RJs by businessmen. Even Grinstein has realized this---saying it is unfair to our customers to trap them in an RJ for more than 2 hours. Now in my view--I don't mind flying on RJs--I have jumped up front a few times and I was very impressed. The technology on the CRJ and ERJ is great----better than many mainline planes. But, the passengers we HAVE TO IMPRESS are the guys that pay full fare at the last minute---and there are plenty like that out there. But, when they have to choose a 717 or a CRJ---a lot go for the 717 so they can work and retrieve items from the overhead bins..... Look at DFW---we have lost a lot of mainline flights--and now we may downsize some more----but wait--it is full of RJs (CR7s) and we will still downsize? Sounds like AA is doing a lot better. Even Airtran is moving in there... I guess the Dallas Ft Worth Metroplex doesn't have enough rich people or business people, right? ( I thought the DFW area had 20,000 millionaires?) If a businessman had to choose whether or not to fly a CR7(or CRJ) or an MD80 to OAK, ONT, SNA, DCA, JFK, PBI, FLL, DEN, PHX, TUS, ELP, RDU, MSY, etc---which would he choose? A possible first class upgrade or no bin space whatsoever? Which would you choose?

It is hard to fight me on this one Inclusive---Grinstein agrees with me.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[sweptback]

Hey General, the passenger that pays last minute full fare is disappearing. The last minute full fare as well is slowly coming down, for better or worse.

As for the "why would somebody pick a CR7 over a M80 debate" -- well, anybody in the DFW area that flies Delta does it for one of two reasons... either they have gobs of SkyMiles and flying on an RJ for 3 hours is worth it to them so one day they can go to Dublin, or because they got a good deal on the ticket and have no real airline allegiance. In either case, the airplane type doesn't even come into play.

The only complaint I hear routinely about the RJs is that the passenger has to walk outside and climb up the steps (especially in the hot DFW summers). We don't have the ramp space to have a contact gate for every RJ but that sure would be nice.

 

[surplus1]

General,

When are you going to move away from yesterday's thinking and enter the real world that we live in today?

The millionaires that you mention don't ride on RJs and don't ride on 757's either. Those folks ride on the corporate jet, the fractional jet or a charter.

For the rest of the folks, I'll grant you that the "walk-ups" might like more bin space, but it is not the #1 priority. What they really like best is an airplane that's going where they want to go, when they want to go; i.e., frquency. The fact is they get a lot more of that with an RJ than they do in a cattle car.

Now, IF they buy a first class ticket or IF they are able to "upgrade" to 1st for free, then they will get a bigger seat and more comfort. However, if they're stuck in the back in some middle seat (likely for walk ups) the difference in "comfort level" exists nowhere except in your mind. The seat pitch is the same and there is no more "work room". As for the bin space, that's mostly an illusion too, since most of the bins are jammed with WalMart packages or mementos of Mickey Mouse. Additionaly, sitting anywhere within 3 rows of Mama and four rug rats that aren't house broken is much like an adventure on Survivor.

If they can get past that "big airplane" nemesis, they next have to deal with a surley cabin crew that would require plastic surgery if it ever smiled at them (as opposed to a smart looking always happy hot thing on an RJ), and having to joust with 100+ lame brains all fighting to pee in the stand-up restroom at the same time. That's the "reality show" in the back end of a "big airplane".

When they eventually get to where they're going in some time frame other than the one they actually preferred, it will take another 30 minutes just to get off the thing, plus another 30 + to find the bag they carefully checked in the hope you could actually deliver it, only to discover when it is unpacked that some considerate handler "borrowed" all the important contents. It's a lot easier to just walk down a few steps of the RJ, grab your bag and leave the fighting to the masses.

The RJ's do have their disadvantages, but so do the mainliners. Perhaps they will be a little unhappy with the perception of being trapped in a small fuselage for 3 hours, but the truth is most flights are far less than that. Even when they are not, the 3-hour RJ segment begins and ends in no more that a total of 4 hours, including boarding and deplaneing and recovering your stuff. The same 3-hour segment takes at least 5 hours in the "big bird". The supposed "comfort level" just doesn't make up for it.

Like you said, time is money. Welcome to the 21st century but you won't make it with a 20th century product no matter how "big" it looks. When you offer service that the customer wants, at the time that he/she wants it, you'll win every time. Right now you're not doing much of either and the size of your airplane can't make up for it. Song is a good idea; the rest of you are singing off key.

PS. I have a question for ya. How many times do you thing GG has ever gone anywhere on an RJ?

Inclusivescope,

I agree--time is money, and the big money is with the businessmen who book a day or so in advance and pay more. Guess what? They don't like RJs---especially on longer flights. If you pi$$ enough of them off--they will cause you to lower your fares to just fill seats---and we are left with what we have today: Full airplanes with not enough businessmen on them. If you don't think that a regular business traveller who likes to work while flying doesn't enjoy the RJ experience--then you haven't talked to many. I have. I also read a large Wall St. Journal Weekend article about the hatred of RJs by businessmen. Even Grinstein has realized this---saying it is unfair to our customers to trap them in an RJ for more than 2 hours. Now in my view--I don't mind flying on RJs--I have jumped up front a few times and I was very impressed. The technology on the CRJ and ERJ is great----better than many mainline planes. But, the passengers we HAVE TO IMPRESS are the guys that pay full fare at the last minute---and there are plenty like that out there. But, when they have to choose a 717 or a CRJ---a lot go for the 717 so they can work and retrieve items from the overhead bins..... Look at DFW---we have lost a lot of mainline flights--and now we may downsize some more----but wait--it is full of RJs (CR7s) and we will still downsize? Sounds like AA is doing a lot better. Even Airtran is moving in there... I guess the Dallas Ft Worth Metroplex doesn't have enough rich people or business people, right? ( I thought the DFW area had 20,000 millionaires?) If a businessman had to choose whether or not to fly a CR7(or CRJ) or an MD80 to OAK, ONT, SNA, DCA, JFK, PBI, FLL, DEN, PHX, TUS, ELP, RDU, MSY, etc---which would he choose? A possible first class upgrade or no bin space whatsoever? Which would you choose?

It is hard to fight me on this one Inclusive---Grinstein agrees with me.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Tim47SIP]

General

I agree--time is money, and the big money is with the businessmen who book a day or so in advance and pay more. Guess what? They don't like RJs---especially on longer flights. If you pi$$ enough of them off--they will cause you to lower your fares to just fill seats---and we are left with what we have today: Full airplanes with not enough businessmen on them.

Gen, I hear what you are saying, but the truth is that there arent as many as there used to be. In addition, many business travelers are travelling only because the prices are right. The far and few between high roller's will schedule first class. I do agree we are pissing off the travelers that like to upgrade to first, but as you say, they can vote with there feet. I only see loads increasing, not decreasing, so I think most of these pax know what they are getting into. I do agree however, that we should try to provide the same or better equipement in markets that we have direct competion in. Like with Airtran, we should compete with mainline aircraft to provide those first class seats when FEASIBLE. Good luck with the negotiations.

 

[drag]

Funny how LCC's provide better service/comfortability than DAL. Buy a ticket on DAL and chances are you'll end up on some cramped RJ. Especially when connecting through DFW. SLC and CVG aren't much better. Flying on SWA is an upgrade from DAL RJ's. Jetblue or Airtran is like flying w/ the rich. LCC Airtran can't justify RJ's and they're spanking DAL in ATL. Now the Canadian gov't will subsidize Bombardier/CMR to add more of these parasites. My have things changed. I'm sorry, but I think DAL will be forced out of DFW while they embark on a massive transformation. Funny how the airlines w/ the most RJ's lose the biggest coin. Those w/ the least are borderline breakeven or profitable. On behalf on NWA, we can only hope they keep the 70 seater away from the contractors. Perhaps one day we look back at this nightmare and laugh......but I doubt it.

 

[wrigley23]

Funny how LCC's provide better service/comfortability than DAL. Buy a ticket on DAL and chances are you'll end up on some cramped RJ. Especially when connecting through DFW. SLC and CVG aren't much better. Flying on SWA is an upgrade from DAL RJ's. Jetblue or Airtran is like flying w/ the rich. LCC Airtran can't justify RJ's and they're spanking DAL in ATL. Now the Canadian gov't will subsidize Bombardier/CMR to add more of these parasites. My have things changed. I'm sorry, but I think DAL will be forced out of DFW while they embark on a massive transformation. Funny how the airlines w/ the most RJ's lose the biggest coin. Those w/ the least are borderline breakeven or profitable. On behalf on NWA, we can only hope they keep the 70 seater away from the contractors. Perhaps one day we look back at this nightmare and laugh......but I doubt it.

I've flown a lot in the past 3 years as a passenger all over the country and I'll take an RJ seat over a coach seat anyday especially on the legacy carriers. First of all, no chance of a middle seat, which I dread, and second, RJs are usually much faster to deplane if you have a close connection (try making a 30 minute connection when you're in row 43 on a 767). Southwest is a nightmare with the open seating, I really don't want to get to the airport 4 hours ahead of time to get the first boarding zone). I haven't flown on Jet Blue yet, so I can't judge, but I have tried ATA and a 73 or a 75 is the same no matter where you go. Airtran; I was unimpressed with the old 9s, but it could be different with the 717s.

The absolute worst is being on a 777 or 747 in the middle section and sitting in the middle seat of five. ugh.

However, if you're flying standby and get bumped up to the front, you'll hear no complaining from me.

Cheers

 

[InclusiveScope]

Funny how the airlines w/ the most RJ's lose the biggest coin. Those w/ the least are borderline breakeven or profitable.

Let's see drag, of the legacy carriers, DAL and CAL had the most RJs. United and USAirways had the least. I wouldn't consider United and USAirways as "borderline breakeven or profitable".

 

[michael707767]

Let's see drag, of the legacy carriers, DAL and CAL had the most RJs. United and USAirways had the least. I wouldn't consider United and USAirways as "borderline breakeven or profitable".

Hmm, didn't USAirways turn a profit last quarter? Even with one time items, I would say that makes them borderline breakeven/profitable.

Drag has a valid point though. If the RJ is so great from a business point of view, Delta should be doing the best followed by CAL, but thats not the case is it?

 

[MedFlyer]

Hmm, didn't USAirways turn a profit last quarter? Even with one time items, I would say that makes them borderline breakeven/profitable.

And how many RJ's did USAirways take delivery of last quarter? Quite a few. Using your logic, I could say the RJ's are why U is becoming profitable.

Drag has a valid point though. If the RJ is so great from a business point of view, Delta should be doing the best followed by CAL, but thats not the case is it?

DAL actually was doing the best for quite a while after 9/11. Problem is all those other carriers have lowered their mainline costs and DAL has not. If DAL had its costs in-line, it would be doing better than AMR, UAL or U.

 

[michael707767]

And how many RJ's did USAirways take delivery of last quarter? Quite a few. Using your logic, I could say the RJ's are why U is becoming profitable.



DAL actually was doing the best for quite a while after 9/11. Problem is all those other carriers have lowered their mainline costs and DAL has not. If DAL had its costs in-line, it would be doing better than AMR, UAL or U.

U is doing better because they got their costs down. I think the RJs will actually work against them. They will not be able to compete with SW and JB with RJs. I think RJs can and do work pretty well for Delta, but IMHO, they will not help U.

 

[drag]

Perhaps I'm wrong about the RJ issue. I'm sure FLYI will prove the viability of the RJ. Given their low employee costs, I bet they'll turn some huge profits. How many of you have bought some stock? It's real cheap so now's your chance. Granted, Midway failed but that's because their costs were too high.

 

[drag]

Let's see drag, of the legacy carriers, DAL and CAL had the most RJs. United and USAirways had the least. I wouldn't consider United and USAirways as "borderline breakeven or profitable".

I wouldn't consider DAL and CAL very healthy. Given the fact that CAL has one of the lowest contracts due to its labor unions being busted many years ago, one might think they should be very profitable. Lots of RJs, low labor contracts and still red. DAL had a real impressive 2nd quarter. Like I said, airlines w/ large RJ contracts lose money. Lots of it.

 

[skiddriver]

DDpaysoff,

... There are 105 seats on a 737-200...

Bye Bye--General Lee

First off, there are 100 seats on a 200 as Delta flies them (8 up front and 92 in the back) as I well know since I've commuted on them from MSY-CVG and back for two years. You could also do a check on travelnet and look for the number of total seats if you don't feel like taking my word for it.

The idea that somehow the 732 is making Delta money while the RJ are losing it is laughable. A 50 seat RJ burns a little over 3000# an hour and takes 2 pilots and 1 F/A at regional rates. The burn rate on a 70 is the same (yes, it's the same as a 50) and the only additional cost is one more regional F/A, and a slightly higher pay rate for the pilots (11% for Comair).

For those 30 extra seats in the 732 (8 admittedly are first class and would sell for a premium if they weren't filled with FF upgrades and non-revs - which they usually are), you pay for double the fuel (6000+ #/hr - I've checked it every time I jumpseated back and forth), two pilots and three F/As at mainline rates. Your costs are more than doubled for an additional 30 seats over the 70 seater. You do the math.

The in-house competitor to the RJ is the 732, not the 757/767/MD88. The RJ beats it in every category except relative comfort. The RJ seats have the same pitch and width as the 732, but insufficient padding in my estimation. Coach in a 732 is no picnic however. I flew my last commute home yesterday in seat 10F (bulkhead) and despite the extra leg room and it was crowded and uncomfortable.

And yes I said last commute. I've taken an aviation management job at a major oil company in New Orleans and have stepped off the treadmill. The fact that I'll be starting at more than the General gets paid is nice, but being 10 minutes from home and having evenings and holidays off is better. I'll stick my head in occasionally to see if you guys ever make up.

General, I appreciate your arguments, but you'd have more credibility if you wouldn't try to twist the facts to bolster your arguments. The CASM argument is a good example. The replacement aircraft for an RJ at Delta is a 732. Try comparing the RJ CASM against the 732 CASM. The result won't be pretty (for you anyway).

I'll see if I can't do something about those Jet-A prices. Everybody buy an SUV!

Adios!

 

[XRMEFLYER]

First off, there are 100 seats on a 200 as Delta flies them (8 up front and 92 in the back) as I well know since I've commuted on them from MSY-CVG and back for two years. You could also do a check on travelnet and look for the number of total seats if you don't feel like taking my word for it.

The idea that somehow the 732 is making Delta money while the RJ are losing it is laughable. A 50 seat RJ burns a little over 3000# an hour and takes 2 pilots and 1 F/A at regional rates. The burn rate on a 70 is the same (yes, it's the same as a 50) and the only additional cost is one more regional F/A, and a slightly higher pay rate for the pilots (11% for Comair).

For those 30 extra seats in the 732 (8 admittedly are first class and would sell for a premium if they weren't filled with FF upgrades and non-revs - which they usually are), you pay for double the fuel (6000+ #/hr - I've checked it every time I jumpseated back and forth), two pilots and three F/As at mainline rates. Your costs are more than doubled for an additional 30 seats over the 70 seater. You do the math.

The in-house competitor to the RJ is the 732, not the 757/767/MD88. The RJ beats it in every category except relative comfort. The RJ seats have the same pitch and width as the 732, but insufficient padding in my estimation. Coach in a 732 is no picnic however. I flew my last commute home yesterday in seat 10F (bulkhead) and despite the extra leg room and it was crowded and uncomfortable.

And yes I said last commute. I've taken an aviation management job at a major oil company in New Orleans and have stepped off the treadmill. The fact that I'll be starting at more than the General gets paid is nice, but being 10 minutes from home and having evenings and holidays off is better. I'll stick my head in occasionally to see if you guys ever make up.

General, I appreciate your arguments, but you'd have more credibility if you wouldn't try to twist the facts to bolster your arguments. The CASM argument is a good example. The replacement aircraft for an RJ at Delta is a 732. Try comparing the RJ CASM against the 732 CASM. The result won't be pretty (for you anyway).

I'll see if I can't do something about those Jet-A prices. Everybody buy an SUV!

Adios!

Buena Suerte Amigo!