DALPA DFW LEC comments on ASA/CMR

[drag]

Funny how LCC's provide better service/comfortability than DAL. Buy a ticket on DAL and chances are you'll end up on some cramped RJ. Especially when connecting through DFW. SLC and CVG aren't much better. Flying on SWA is an upgrade from DAL RJ's. Jetblue or Airtran is like flying w/ the rich. LCC Airtran can't justify RJ's and they're spanking DAL in ATL. Now the Canadian gov't will subsidize Bombardier/CMR to add more of these parasites. My have things changed. I'm sorry, but I think DAL will be forced out of DFW while they embark on a massive transformation. Funny how the airlines w/ the most RJ's lose the biggest coin. Those w/ the least are borderline breakeven or profitable. On behalf on NWA, we can only hope they keep the 70 seater away from the contractors. Perhaps one day we look back at this nightmare and laugh......but I doubt it.

 

[wrigley23]

Funny how LCC's provide better service/comfortability than DAL. Buy a ticket on DAL and chances are you'll end up on some cramped RJ. Especially when connecting through DFW. SLC and CVG aren't much better. Flying on SWA is an upgrade from DAL RJ's. Jetblue or Airtran is like flying w/ the rich. LCC Airtran can't justify RJ's and they're spanking DAL in ATL. Now the Canadian gov't will subsidize Bombardier/CMR to add more of these parasites. My have things changed. I'm sorry, but I think DAL will be forced out of DFW while they embark on a massive transformation. Funny how the airlines w/ the most RJ's lose the biggest coin. Those w/ the least are borderline breakeven or profitable. On behalf on NWA, we can only hope they keep the 70 seater away from the contractors. Perhaps one day we look back at this nightmare and laugh......but I doubt it.

I've flown a lot in the past 3 years as a passenger all over the country and I'll take an RJ seat over a coach seat anyday especially on the legacy carriers. First of all, no chance of a middle seat, which I dread, and second, RJs are usually much faster to deplane if you have a close connection (try making a 30 minute connection when you're in row 43 on a 767). Southwest is a nightmare with the open seating, I really don't want to get to the airport 4 hours ahead of time to get the first boarding zone). I haven't flown on Jet Blue yet, so I can't judge, but I have tried ATA and a 73 or a 75 is the same no matter where you go. Airtran; I was unimpressed with the old 9s, but it could be different with the 717s.

The absolute worst is being on a 777 or 747 in the middle section and sitting in the middle seat of five. ugh.

However, if you're flying standby and get bumped up to the front, you'll hear no complaining from me.

Cheers

 

[InclusiveScope]

Funny how the airlines w/ the most RJ's lose the biggest coin. Those w/ the least are borderline breakeven or profitable.

Let's see drag, of the legacy carriers, DAL and CAL had the most RJs. United and USAirways had the least. I wouldn't consider United and USAirways as "borderline breakeven or profitable".

 

[michael707767]

Let's see drag, of the legacy carriers, DAL and CAL had the most RJs. United and USAirways had the least. I wouldn't consider United and USAirways as "borderline breakeven or profitable".

Hmm, didn't USAirways turn a profit last quarter? Even with one time items, I would say that makes them borderline breakeven/profitable.

Drag has a valid point though. If the RJ is so great from a business point of view, Delta should be doing the best followed by CAL, but thats not the case is it?

 

[MedFlyer]

Hmm, didn't USAirways turn a profit last quarter? Even with one time items, I would say that makes them borderline breakeven/profitable.

And how many RJ's did USAirways take delivery of last quarter? Quite a few. Using your logic, I could say the RJ's are why U is becoming profitable.

Drag has a valid point though. If the RJ is so great from a business point of view, Delta should be doing the best followed by CAL, but thats not the case is it?

DAL actually was doing the best for quite a while after 9/11. Problem is all those other carriers have lowered their mainline costs and DAL has not. If DAL had its costs in-line, it would be doing better than AMR, UAL or U.

 

[michael707767]

And how many RJ's did USAirways take delivery of last quarter? Quite a few. Using your logic, I could say the RJ's are why U is becoming profitable.



DAL actually was doing the best for quite a while after 9/11. Problem is all those other carriers have lowered their mainline costs and DAL has not. If DAL had its costs in-line, it would be doing better than AMR, UAL or U.

U is doing better because they got their costs down. I think the RJs will actually work against them. They will not be able to compete with SW and JB with RJs. I think RJs can and do work pretty well for Delta, but IMHO, they will not help U.

 

[drag]

Perhaps I'm wrong about the RJ issue. I'm sure FLYI will prove the viability of the RJ. Given their low employee costs, I bet they'll turn some huge profits. How many of you have bought some stock? It's real cheap so now's your chance. Granted, Midway failed but that's because their costs were too high.

 

[drag]

Let's see drag, of the legacy carriers, DAL and CAL had the most RJs. United and USAirways had the least. I wouldn't consider United and USAirways as "borderline breakeven or profitable".

I wouldn't consider DAL and CAL very healthy. Given the fact that CAL has one of the lowest contracts due to its labor unions being busted many years ago, one might think they should be very profitable. Lots of RJs, low labor contracts and still red. DAL had a real impressive 2nd quarter. Like I said, airlines w/ large RJ contracts lose money. Lots of it.

 

[skiddriver]

DDpaysoff,

... There are 105 seats on a 737-200...

Bye Bye--General Lee

First off, there are 100 seats on a 200 as Delta flies them (8 up front and 92 in the back) as I well know since I've commuted on them from MSY-CVG and back for two years. You could also do a check on travelnet and look for the number of total seats if you don't feel like taking my word for it.

The idea that somehow the 732 is making Delta money while the RJ are losing it is laughable. A 50 seat RJ burns a little over 3000# an hour and takes 2 pilots and 1 F/A at regional rates. The burn rate on a 70 is the same (yes, it's the same as a 50) and the only additional cost is one more regional F/A, and a slightly higher pay rate for the pilots (11% for Comair).

For those 30 extra seats in the 732 (8 admittedly are first class and would sell for a premium if they weren't filled with FF upgrades and non-revs - which they usually are), you pay for double the fuel (6000+ #/hr - I've checked it every time I jumpseated back and forth), two pilots and three F/As at mainline rates. Your costs are more than doubled for an additional 30 seats over the 70 seater. You do the math.

The in-house competitor to the RJ is the 732, not the 757/767/MD88. The RJ beats it in every category except relative comfort. The RJ seats have the same pitch and width as the 732, but insufficient padding in my estimation. Coach in a 732 is no picnic however. I flew my last commute home yesterday in seat 10F (bulkhead) and despite the extra leg room and it was crowded and uncomfortable.

And yes I said last commute. I've taken an aviation management job at a major oil company in New Orleans and have stepped off the treadmill. The fact that I'll be starting at more than the General gets paid is nice, but being 10 minutes from home and having evenings and holidays off is better. I'll stick my head in occasionally to see if you guys ever make up.

General, I appreciate your arguments, but you'd have more credibility if you wouldn't try to twist the facts to bolster your arguments. The CASM argument is a good example. The replacement aircraft for an RJ at Delta is a 732. Try comparing the RJ CASM against the 732 CASM. The result won't be pretty (for you anyway).

I'll see if I can't do something about those Jet-A prices. Everybody buy an SUV!

Adios!

 

[XRMEFLYER]

First off, there are 100 seats on a 200 as Delta flies them (8 up front and 92 in the back) as I well know since I've commuted on them from MSY-CVG and back for two years. You could also do a check on travelnet and look for the number of total seats if you don't feel like taking my word for it.

The idea that somehow the 732 is making Delta money while the RJ are losing it is laughable. A 50 seat RJ burns a little over 3000# an hour and takes 2 pilots and 1 F/A at regional rates. The burn rate on a 70 is the same (yes, it's the same as a 50) and the only additional cost is one more regional F/A, and a slightly higher pay rate for the pilots (11% for Comair).

For those 30 extra seats in the 732 (8 admittedly are first class and would sell for a premium if they weren't filled with FF upgrades and non-revs - which they usually are), you pay for double the fuel (6000+ #/hr - I've checked it every time I jumpseated back and forth), two pilots and three F/As at mainline rates. Your costs are more than doubled for an additional 30 seats over the 70 seater. You do the math.

The in-house competitor to the RJ is the 732, not the 757/767/MD88. The RJ beats it in every category except relative comfort. The RJ seats have the same pitch and width as the 732, but insufficient padding in my estimation. Coach in a 732 is no picnic however. I flew my last commute home yesterday in seat 10F (bulkhead) and despite the extra leg room and it was crowded and uncomfortable.

And yes I said last commute. I've taken an aviation management job at a major oil company in New Orleans and have stepped off the treadmill. The fact that I'll be starting at more than the General gets paid is nice, but being 10 minutes from home and having evenings and holidays off is better. I'll stick my head in occasionally to see if you guys ever make up.

General, I appreciate your arguments, but you'd have more credibility if you wouldn't try to twist the facts to bolster your arguments. The CASM argument is a good example. The replacement aircraft for an RJ at Delta is a 732. Try comparing the RJ CASM against the 732 CASM. The result won't be pretty (for you anyway).

I'll see if I can't do something about those Jet-A prices. Everybody buy an SUV!

Adios!

Buena Suerte Amigo!

 

[JetPilot_Mike]

First off, there are 100 seats on a 200 as Delta flies them (8 up front and 92 in the back)

That is correct. General may have been thinking of when the 732 had 109 seats in the one-class Delta Express config.

 

[FurloughedAgain]

Michael said,

U is doing better because they got their costs down. I think the RJs will actually work against them.

Although U is adding a considerable number of CRJ50s/70s to their fleet (via PSA) a good number of the "RJs" they are adding are the Embraer 170s.

Just because we call something an "RJ" doesn't necessarily make it an uncomfortable, substandard, piece of junk.

The E170 is receiving quite a few accolades from the frequent flier groups. It is significantly more comfortable than the CRJ70 (6 inches taller and wider due to the double-bubble fuselage), larger overheads which accomodate rollaboards reducing the need for gate-checked luggage, jetway compatible (without adapters), underbelly cargo with traditional servicing on the opposite side as boarding (prevents customers from hanging around the door looking for their bags), no middle seats, full-sized lavatories -- the only thing these things are missing is IFE and food service (and I suspect Jetblue will remedy that when they take delivery of theirs.) There is nothing "regional" about the E170 except for the payscales -- and it is THERE that management has won the war and provided their customers with an exceptional product at a rediculously low cost.

If RJs are contributing to the recovery of US Airways -- and I believe that they are -- then, without a doubt, providing a "mainline" product at an "regional" cost-structure as they have done with the E170 may help make the difference between an airline that is simply surviving and one that has become the first legacy carrier to complete the transformation that will ultimately be required of ALL major airlines, allowing them to effectively compete with the LCCs.

Lousy for our careers? Arguably. Visionary for airline management? Absolutely.

 

[ALCOHOLIC]

That just goes to show how much the author (and those who buy into it) know about airline and RJ economics.

Comair runs at 11 CASM, ASA near 12 (not 16-19 as the author states), and the RJ's are cheaper to operate than a 737 and even an MD-88 (14.1 and 12.6 CASM respectively).


are you serious. show me the data on that. most figures i see is around 22 casm for the RJ.

 

[79%N1]

22 cents!!! Your facts are seriously flawed! Thay are not even close to that, as was posted....Comair is at around 11, ASA around 12! Fact! Do your homework and look it up!

 

[bvt1151]

are you serious. show me the data on that. most figures i see is around 22 casm for the RJ.

Plenty of sources for that:

Aviation Daily
BTS
Air Transport World
Regional Airline News
Eclat Consulting

To be specific, Aircraft Operating CASM for Comair on the CRJ-200 is 10.1 cents.
ASA operates them at 10.3 cents (the other fractions of a penny that make up total casm's come from non-operating costs).

Operating CASM on Delta's 737-200 - 14.1 cents.
Southwest - 6.1 cents.


Bear in mind these numbers are highly susceptible to aircraft utilization and stage lengths. RJ's have shorter stage lengths, yet are still cheaper.

 

[jetflyer]

"BLAME THE RJ" B.S. needs to stop

The Delta Pilot's "BLAME THE RJ" B.S. is not helping save Delta. COSTS are too high compared to the LCCs. That's why Delta is in the shape it's in now!!! A lot of Delta pilots need to wake up and wake up fast. It's not the RJ but the LCC and the WALMARTIZATION of the AIRLINE INDUSTRY.

Chapter 11 is inevitable even AFTER STEEP PAY CUTS.
WITHIN THE NEXT 10 YEARS: IS CHAPTER 7?
I'm beginning to wonder. Delta has a serious uphill battle for its survival and it has just begun. After slashing everyone's pay, from PILOTS at MAINLINE to FAs at ASA, Delta would still be in trouble competitively with the LCCs.

THE LCCs ARE DANGEROUS.

The LCCs have no PENSIONS and not even close to the same DEBT LOAD.
THEY'RE BECOMING MORE AND MORE POPULAR with TOURISTS AND BUSINESS FLYERS!!
PEOPLE like that LOW TICKET PRICE and that's the way it's going to be from now on.
They are way more efficient than the LEGACY CARRIERS. For the most part the LCCs also have a lot better labor relations and better company morale which is passed on to the all important passenger.

The LCCs are dangerous. Now Indy Air is out there and the new Virgin will be here soon. They are a force to be reckoned with, and the LCCs, NOT RJs and REGIONAL AIRLINES, are what are DRAGGING DOWN PILOT PAY.

The LCC is what is hurting the Delta bottom line BY DRIVING DOWN THE AIRLINE FARES PER SEAT.

DELTA AND ALL OF ITS EMPLOYEES, yes including ASA and Comair, are probably going to have to take pay cuts to survive this challenge ahead of them. The challenge ahead is just too difficult to overcome without some pain.

10 years from now IF DELTA IS STILL AROUND, their costs are going to have to be in line with Southwest's, AirTran's and JetBlue's. Delta will be nothing more than another low cost carrier.

CHANGE IS NEEDED.

Let's just hope Delta survives the metamorphasis to just another LCC that is coming. Let's all STOP THE IN-FIGHTING, WORK TOGETHER FOR ONCE, AND PRAY because a lot of people's livelihoods are depending on Delta's survival including mine.

Jet

 

[Vortilon]

Jet,

Man turn down the volume of your posts....I think that one was up to 11!

 

[General Lee]

Jet,

Delta will still have an INTL presence (probably a larger one due to the domestic LCC competition) ---so the domestic operation may be low cost--but not the INTL. And, even if we do go into a Chap 11 senario, the analysts have said that since we only have one union and costs would be slashed immediately---our chances of a successful emergence is a lot higher than USAir and Uniteds. I still think a lot of these warnings are to bring the creditors and vendors in line with what is needed, but we shall see.


Jetpilot Mike,

I flew those Express 737s--they had 119 seats. I haven't flown them in years--so they may actually have 100 seats now. The last thing I have heard on possible new 100 seaters was from a meeting last week in our ATL lounge--something about possible Emb-190s to replace the aging 737-200s. That was from Kolshack supposedly.


A couple rumors:

This one heard in the ATL crew lounge: Moving the NYC Shuttle 737-300s to SLC to fly again to Montana (replacing them with DFW MD-90s after DFW is pared down again---due to the fact that they can put them all in NYC (with spare parts) and those planes have an aft stairwell---for easy exits).

And, I heard this in recurrent last month---since we have the MD-11s on long term leases (that could be broken in a Chap 11)--we would bring them back in a cargo version and fly them. Why? Well, two other Skyteam players (Korean and Northwest --soon to be) have their own cargo ops and have been doing well with them.


We shall see!


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

Also with that MD-11 rumor--Air France also has their own stand alone 747 Cargo business--with 744s and 747-200Fs. (also KLM --now a part of Air France, and Martin Air Holland--owned by KLM)



Maybe it could happen--after deep concessions. We will learn something at the end of this month....


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[Tim47SIP]

To the Gen and others at Delta

Maybe it could happen--after deep concessions. We will learn something at the end of this month....

Well, whatever happens, I hope you guys fair well. I know we have are differences with DALPA and the WO's, but I do want to see you guys come out of this as well as possible. Good luck to you guys.