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Dalpa Concerned
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michael707767
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~~~^~~~ said:
First of all, you have no right to be a party to our negotiations. Anymore than we have a right to be involved in your negotiations. Get used to it.
Second of all, you just stated an outright lie. Delta scope was at 70 seats prior to C2k, and did not emerge post C2k at 50 seats.
~~~^~~~
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Oh, so your not negotiating limitations on my equipment and advancing proposals that involve pilot slots on the same equipment?michael707767 said:
Lets see there were 105 seat BAE 146's on the property when I hired in. Now permitted aircraft types are defined at 50 seats, with an allowance for 57 CRJ 700's that were grandfathered in under our prior aircraft orders. Duane Woerth also told Regional Aviation News that you had re-set the line at 50 seats, and at some carriers 70 seat jets would be allowed, but in limited numbers.michael707767 said:
Also, your MEC objected to our MEC talking with Delta, although Delta said that under law they had to negotiate with whoever ALPA sent to the table.
So while you state that we should not interfere with each other's bargaining, you have locked my MEC out of negotiations involving the airplanes I fly.
Darn glad we filed a lawsuit instead of just trusting the Bilateral Scope Impact Committee.... Want to non rev to NY with me and hear what the Judge has to say about your contract, after you take the wage cuts?
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General Lee
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General Lee
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"Come on now. Look my frined, we are the ones who have suffered greatly over the last three years---while you and DCI have enjoyed record growth and upgrades. You have. We have had terrible furloughs"
Its more than a bit disingenuous of you to say you have suffered. You are still making bank with great benefits. The 1020 individuals beneath you have suffered but the umpteen thousands above them have not. Your time to make that statement is coming, but for now its still in the future. On of my CP's made the observation that D is about two years behind UA. Looks like he may be right. You ask for DCI to share the pain, perhaps when every D pilot has paid his or her share you might be able to come hat in hand looking for something from the profitable yet under paid (and under appreciated). Hopefully the profitable part of the company will say no though.
Its more than a bit disingenuous of you to say you have suffered. You are still making bank with great benefits. The 1020 individuals beneath you have suffered but the umpteen thousands above them have not. Your time to make that statement is coming, but for now its still in the future. On of my CP's made the observation that D is about two years behind UA. Looks like he may be right. You ask for DCI to share the pain, perhaps when every D pilot has paid his or her share you might be able to come hat in hand looking for something from the profitable yet under paid (and under appreciated). Hopefully the profitable part of the company will say no though.
Bill Mostellar
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General Lee
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Russ,
Did your CP remind you that United was on the Titanic watch before 9-11? Your CP must be really tight with Jerry (your Jerry), and hopefully you guys will take some more cuts and accept 130 seaters for Brasilia rates----because you guys are where Allegany was 15 years ago..... Whatever dude. We are getting our act together in a bad period---and our union is working with management. You don't like to hear this but, we have lost a lot of Summer revenue to you and the "frequent" RJs to Montana this Summer, when we all know that Montana doesn't need hourly service--rather more seats for certain connection times. With a 757 coming in from JFK, and a 738 coming in from PHL, IAD, and BOS all at 10am---we have a CRJ ready to connect only 50 people to Kalispell. Hmmm. Who's fault is this? The bean counters in ATL--and they know it. But, atleast you guys are in SLC ready to save us...
I am glad your CP knows everything--and he believes everything our management says. Sounds like he is a great CP for you---and Jerry Atkins probably loves to talk to him everyday..... (pssst.....tell them we need future 130 seaters at Brasilia rates....thanks...) The only reason you are doing well now at Skywest is because the passengers retreated after 9-11, and your RJs were placed on old mainline routes. Those same people are back, and your RJs are over stuffed and really need to be replaced. But, hey--it is all our fault--the mainline pilots. That is what your CP thinks--he knows it all. Whatever.
Bye Bye--General Lee
Did your CP remind you that United was on the Titanic watch before 9-11? Your CP must be really tight with Jerry (your Jerry), and hopefully you guys will take some more cuts and accept 130 seaters for Brasilia rates----because you guys are where Allegany was 15 years ago..... Whatever dude. We are getting our act together in a bad period---and our union is working with management. You don't like to hear this but, we have lost a lot of Summer revenue to you and the "frequent" RJs to Montana this Summer, when we all know that Montana doesn't need hourly service--rather more seats for certain connection times. With a 757 coming in from JFK, and a 738 coming in from PHL, IAD, and BOS all at 10am---we have a CRJ ready to connect only 50 people to Kalispell. Hmmm. Who's fault is this? The bean counters in ATL--and they know it. But, atleast you guys are in SLC ready to save us...
I am glad your CP knows everything--and he believes everything our management says. Sounds like he is a great CP for you---and Jerry Atkins probably loves to talk to him everyday..... (pssst.....tell them we need future 130 seaters at Brasilia rates....thanks...) The only reason you are doing well now at Skywest is because the passengers retreated after 9-11, and your RJs were placed on old mainline routes. Those same people are back, and your RJs are over stuffed and really need to be replaced. But, hey--it is all our fault--the mainline pilots. That is what your CP thinks--he knows it all. Whatever.
Bye Bye--General Lee
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"Whatever"
A sign of frustration on your part, almost teenager like.
Sounds like I hit a nerve. You can say what you want about DCI, SkyWest, CP and the state of the Titanic all you want. At least UA is trying to right the ship, the dive planes on the Delta sub are in the emergency dive mode. I wish like heck they would reverse the trend because as goes Delta's fate goes mine, at least in the near term until we can unload the albatross should it become terminal. If what you say is true(DALPA spoon fed) then eventually I imagine mainline will take the routes back. I have no problem with that despite your vitriolic beliefs about me. Interesting how you assume all this from my statements about you not personally hurting, how you managed to turn it towards Montana flying is amazing.
When you suffer like you claim to while still making a $150,000 plus (my estimate for a wide body FO, low to mid range) plus great benefits it makes you look pretty out of touch.
If its of any consolation, the CP I speak of didn't have good things to say about UA either. He is the only CP of the lot I like and respect (LAX CP for those in the know)
"We are getting our act together in a bad period"
That would be by losing how much this quarter? Outside influences aside, D is bleeding. You can only blame fuel costs only so much. I hope you understand that I will listen to professionals about the economic state of D and not you. Just the same if I have a question about your jet I would ask you and not airline analysts.
A sign of frustration on your part, almost teenager like.
Sounds like I hit a nerve. You can say what you want about DCI, SkyWest, CP and the state of the Titanic all you want. At least UA is trying to right the ship, the dive planes on the Delta sub are in the emergency dive mode. I wish like heck they would reverse the trend because as goes Delta's fate goes mine, at least in the near term until we can unload the albatross should it become terminal. If what you say is true(DALPA spoon fed) then eventually I imagine mainline will take the routes back. I have no problem with that despite your vitriolic beliefs about me. Interesting how you assume all this from my statements about you not personally hurting, how you managed to turn it towards Montana flying is amazing.
When you suffer like you claim to while still making a $150,000 plus (my estimate for a wide body FO, low to mid range) plus great benefits it makes you look pretty out of touch.
If its of any consolation, the CP I speak of didn't have good things to say about UA either. He is the only CP of the lot I like and respect (LAX CP for those in the know)
"We are getting our act together in a bad period"
That would be by losing how much this quarter? Outside influences aside, D is bleeding. You can only blame fuel costs only so much. I hope you understand that I will listen to professionals about the economic state of D and not you. Just the same if I have a question about your jet I would ask you and not airline analysts.
General Lee
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Russ,
You and your CP obviously don't know exactly what is going on here. Had we given in 8 months ago and given whatever they wanted, the creditors would NOT have thought about giving a dime either. We would have had a "bandaid" given to the economic problem of ours. Eventually we would have had to come back for more--not addressing the TOTAL cost problem. You see, United and AA have both gotten relief from their creditors--AA in the tune of $175 million a year in relief (not bad) and UA with a lot more---their 747-400s now cost them the equivalent of 737 lease rates. Can you follow me yet?
Grinstein and our MEC chair Malone have been eating lunches or dinners together for some time now. I just read an article that stated that Malone talks to Grinstein about once a week on the telephone. Do they know what is going on? I bet they do! Do you? No! Does your CP in LA? Probably not.
Am I frustrated with you---no. I do get frustrated when I keep hearing RJ pilots tell me that I am the reason (with my pay---and it is not $150,000 a year) for Delta's downfall (not the Comair strike and $1 billion in costs, or the stock buy back pre-9-11 for $2.5 billion that evaporated, or the selling of the fuel hedges that really wasn't necessary due to Congress allowing extra time to pay off pension payments.......etc). We have been a fixed cost--a known cost---since we signed the contract. We offered to cut our wages 14% a while back (before we had to negotiate)--which could have helped. They also could have taken (not asked for--taken) pay from the non-union people who "trusted" the company enough to not have a union and not to have to pay monthly dues. (look what you got without a union---up to 99 seats for 50 seat wages--and you have record profits!) Since 9-11--we are down to 7200 pilots--from over 10,000 before 9-11. (we have lost 450 Capts since May 1st)
So, I am not frustrated with you and your banter, rather the process of hearing things without merrit. Your CP probably knows a bunch about Skywest---but he isn't in the negotiating room with any of our people, and he isn't privy to Malone talking weekly to Grinstein. I have a hunch they aren't going to let this ship sink.
Bye Bye--General Lee
You and your CP obviously don't know exactly what is going on here. Had we given in 8 months ago and given whatever they wanted, the creditors would NOT have thought about giving a dime either. We would have had a "bandaid" given to the economic problem of ours. Eventually we would have had to come back for more--not addressing the TOTAL cost problem. You see, United and AA have both gotten relief from their creditors--AA in the tune of $175 million a year in relief (not bad) and UA with a lot more---their 747-400s now cost them the equivalent of 737 lease rates. Can you follow me yet?
Grinstein and our MEC chair Malone have been eating lunches or dinners together for some time now. I just read an article that stated that Malone talks to Grinstein about once a week on the telephone. Do they know what is going on? I bet they do! Do you? No! Does your CP in LA? Probably not.
Am I frustrated with you---no. I do get frustrated when I keep hearing RJ pilots tell me that I am the reason (with my pay---and it is not $150,000 a year) for Delta's downfall (not the Comair strike and $1 billion in costs, or the stock buy back pre-9-11 for $2.5 billion that evaporated, or the selling of the fuel hedges that really wasn't necessary due to Congress allowing extra time to pay off pension payments.......etc). We have been a fixed cost--a known cost---since we signed the contract. We offered to cut our wages 14% a while back (before we had to negotiate)--which could have helped. They also could have taken (not asked for--taken) pay from the non-union people who "trusted" the company enough to not have a union and not to have to pay monthly dues. (look what you got without a union---up to 99 seats for 50 seat wages--and you have record profits!) Since 9-11--we are down to 7200 pilots--from over 10,000 before 9-11. (we have lost 450 Capts since May 1st)
So, I am not frustrated with you and your banter, rather the process of hearing things without merrit. Your CP probably knows a bunch about Skywest---but he isn't in the negotiating room with any of our people, and he isn't privy to Malone talking weekly to Grinstein. I have a hunch they aren't going to let this ship sink.
Bye Bye--General Lee
"Your CP probably knows a bunch about Skywest---but he isn't in the negotiating room with any of our people"
And neither are you. To the larger picture it doesn't matter what UA or AA have done. D is in a fight for its life. Comparing yourself as you have done means nothing.
"I just read an article that stated that Malone talks to Grinstein about once a week on the telephone"
Do you know what they speak of? They speak (so says the press) and you assume forward progress is being made?
All you have is anecdotal information to base your beliefs on. Do you have some greater prescience and providence to know what goes on in these closed door meetings/calls? For all you know they are bickering wildly and are as polar as can be. Just the same it can be as you say. I also read an article recently, in AW&ST that painted less than a glowing outlook for Delta. All this means you get your info just the same as I do. We interpert it differently however.
Neither you, nor I or my CP for that matter have any greater insight than the other two. You are obviously have a greater stake but when it comes down to it, but you know as little as I or the rest looking in.
As I've said of you in the past. I admire your eternal optimism, There's a rose under the steamer but it borders on myopia.
"look what you got without a union---up to 99 seats for 50 seat wages--and you have record profits!"
Not much to say about that. Its the truth. Your making bank from a floundering airline, I'm making less than my contemporaries while we make record profits.
Something needs to be fixed.
And neither are you. To the larger picture it doesn't matter what UA or AA have done. D is in a fight for its life. Comparing yourself as you have done means nothing.
"I just read an article that stated that Malone talks to Grinstein about once a week on the telephone"
Do you know what they speak of? They speak (so says the press) and you assume forward progress is being made?
All you have is anecdotal information to base your beliefs on. Do you have some greater prescience and providence to know what goes on in these closed door meetings/calls? For all you know they are bickering wildly and are as polar as can be. Just the same it can be as you say. I also read an article recently, in AW&ST that painted less than a glowing outlook for Delta. All this means you get your info just the same as I do. We interpert it differently however.
Neither you, nor I or my CP for that matter have any greater insight than the other two. You are obviously have a greater stake but when it comes down to it, but you know as little as I or the rest looking in.
As I've said of you in the past. I admire your eternal optimism, There's a rose under the steamer but it borders on myopia.
"look what you got without a union---up to 99 seats for 50 seat wages--and you have record profits!"
Not much to say about that. Its the truth. Your making bank from a floundering airline, I'm making less than my contemporaries while we make record profits.
Something needs to be fixed.
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PBRstreetgang
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General,General Lee said:
I cannot believe that you refuse to read the giant print on the wall. Change your hat for a moment, from pilot to ceo. Now take your contract(DALPA's), and place side by side with Mesa's, which one would you like to write the check for when it comes to pay for pilot compensation? Until you(ALPA) guys realize that ceo's want mesa pay for every pilot in the USA, it will not stop sliding down. Those at the top of the payscale will have to realize, you cannot stop the slide downward without the help of those you are sliding towards, you can lock arms with every other pilot in the industry and create a force to be reckoned with. Remember you have far more to loose at your level than we do at our level.I would like to make something like your wages, or would you like to make something like my wages? If this industry continues to tank, I will not have to try too hard to find another job that pays equal to what I am making now, can you say the same?
Being at the top means you have further to fall. Pilots are the last of the highly organized labor groups left and the crosshairs are square on the 5 ring. Wake up, it sure wont be any fun at all.
PBR
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