DALPA and the 11 Sep FM appeal

[DaveGriffin]

Here's an old post from 06/21/01 I found on the defunct PlaneBusiness archives. It’s pretty good. Looks like the poster was right on target. Not much has changed in the last 15 months, except that WN isn’t held in quite as low esteem as it was before.

The question being replied to is "What were the "NO" voters looking for in the Delta TA that they voted against?”

I think the 30% NO voters (if it was actually that high) were looking for:
· United PLUS 1.5%,
· Every jet over 50 seats taken away from Comair and ASA and given to DL
· Banish all RJDC supporters to the Scab list
· Give all the Express guys free "Southwest Sux" t-shirts, lapel pins and ball caps
· Leo forced to sit all day in the baseball pitch dunk tank seat at the DALPA Annual Summer Beer Bust, Chili Cook off and Willie Nelson Air-Aid concert held over 4th of July at Lake Spivey.

Since we are approaching the anniversary of 11 Sept, the question, to which I will now offer my interpretation of possible DALPA responses, is:
“Why do the mainline Delta pilots belief that the 11 Sept attacks FM ruling will be overturned in the pending appeal?”

· Our jobs are more important than anything, and we mean anything.
· We had a contract dammit.
· Maybe we should first ask ourselves why the attackers hate the US so much.
· Come on, it was just 3,000 US citizens. More third world residents than that die every month due to US imperialism and market exploitation.
· If we get furloughed, the turbo prop guys, that we own, sure as h*ll should furloughed too!
· And how come those low-wage, profession-prostituting, nearly-scab *ssholes at Southwest, JetBlue, and AirTran get to keep their jobs?
· If the UN was running the show over here, I bet that they would agree that 11 Sept wasn’t anything to get all worked up over.
· Let’s get on with our lives and let the healing begin.
· We’re still pissed-off that network TV made such a big deal about the policemen, the firemen and the “let’s roll” guy and didn’t say anything about the pilots.

 

[DaveGriffin]

additions

After reflecting on the anniversary of 9/11 today and after numerous toasts this evening to the memories of the murdered innocent and fallen comrades, here are a few other interpretive responses to the question “Why do the mainline Delta pilots belief that the 11 Sept attacks FM ruling will be overturned in the pending appeal?”

· We can’t let the cowardice of passengers who have decided to reduce their flying after the attacks of 9/11 be the controlling factor of our income and financial futures.
· We can deny the existence of the passengers’ fear of flying but we still must demand that we be armed and authorized to initiate small-arms fire during flight ops to protect ourselves from possible future attacks. (Duane Woerth d*mned near broke his arm slapping himself on the back after the “Guns in the Cockpit” bill was passed by the Senate last week.)
· The ALPA attorneys who crafted the FM clause in our PWA never imagined anything like the attacks of 9/11 which could trigger the company’s right to furlough. It’s just not fair.

 

[DaveGriffin]

Here we are. Less than 2 weeks away from another System Board with Mr. Bloch. Prior to that momentous event I offer a few final interpretative answers to the burning question:

“Why do Delta pilots belief that the 11 Sept attacks FM ruling will be overturned in the pending appeal?”

------ Because I am tired of listening to that monotone, dead-fish sounding Larry Diest drone on about furloughed pilot benefits every week.

------ I sure learned my lesson about volunteering. I guess my conscience temporarily overruled my good sense when I offered to sponsor one of the junior furloughed pilots. If we don’t win this FM thing quick I don’t know how I will be able to get rid of young Mr. “I-support-the-union-and-am-proud-to-be-furloughed”. The poor nitwit thinks he is in one of those old movies where the struggling union worker bravely stands up to the evil coal mining company. (Is that the one that stars John Ford?) Between his bratty kids, boring wife and his non-stop union firebrand radicalism, I don’t think I can stand one more Sunday with him and his family in our backyard for a cookout. I hate burgers, hotdogs and lite beer. I’m an empty nester for Christ sake. I got rid of my 2 sets of kids years ago and I sure don’t want to spend my free time with his first set. All I want on Sunday afternoon is some peace and quiet with my new wife, a 3 inch thick filet mignon cooked over my $3,500 deluxe gas grill and a pitcher of ice cold, Grey Goose vodka martinis.

 

[B737G]

Hey DaveGriffin, would you like some cheese with that whine? Why are you so concerned over what the DAL pilot group is doing in regard to force manure? Get a life! The arbitrator said that FM will end at some point in time. Do you not agree? Whether FM ends in one month or ten years, the 3,000 plus that died on 9-11 are not coming back. One of my best friends from college was killed on 9-11 while working in the Pentagon. That in no way changes my view on FM and when it will/should end. You sound like a true have not who makes himself feel better by lashing out at those who have made something of themselves. Maybe some professional counseling would do you some good.

 

[DaveGriffin]

The arbitrator said that FM will end at some point in time. Do you not agree?

I do indeed agree it will end B737G.

It is you and DALPA who do not believe FM should have happened in the first place.

Your entire first appeal disputed that the attacks of 11 Sept legally triggered the FM clause in the PWA.

The 10,000 members of the union and its lawyers (plus some of your AFL-CIO brethren) are the only American citizens who agree with that ridiculous and insulting idea.

I am sure that most of the French would agree with you.

 

[B737G]

Based on the fact that most Americans are no longer fearful of flying, I would say many people agree with ALPA that FM no longer applies. Again, why do you care. How does this in any way affect you? Let me take a stab at my own question. DaveGriffin is a high school graduate who wanted nothing more than to fly airplanes. Realizing he was not qualified, he decided to jump out of airplanes instead and has had a hard on about pilots ever since. Dave, I challenge you to find a post where I ever stated FM never existed. It did and is over as far as I and DALPA are concerned. Bloch will probably disagree and we will be back visiting with him in the near future. Get over it man, this in no way concerns you so focus on your life and things you can do to make it better!

 

[DaveGriffin]

Dave, I challenge you to find a post where I ever stated FM never existed. It did and is over as far as I and DALPA are concerned.

B737G;

Read the first FM appeal that DALPA filed earlier in the year. In it your union said that FM did not exist. They claimed the reduction in flying was nothing more than an economic event.

I am sure your deceased "best' friend in the Pentagon would appreciate the fact that you and your union say that the attack of 11 Sept, the cause of his death, is not significant in reducing the number of commercial passengers.

You AF guys are all the same.

 

[trainerjet]

B737G,

A word of friendly advice. Why waste your time even responding to anything "DaveGriffin" has to say? Everyone else on this board just ignores his posts. If you need a little proof, just do some checking and watch his posts being ignored......except by himself. Let him continue to answer his own messages, since he is the only person on here that gives a **** what he has to say about DAL or ALPA or the AF or whatever else he chooses to complain about.

 

[DaveGriffin]

Dear Dave;

Actually, as a 767 Capt, I am not in any hurry for FM to end. In my opinion the multi-year furlough of our junior pilots provides the necessary toughening and hardening that I believe is absolutely essential to the creation of a dedicated union pilot and activist.

Plus, during my sponsored furloughed family’s time of need, it allows me to get those things done around my house that would normally cost me much more and at the same time provides Bill, the furloughed 737 FO that I sponsor and his family, with a modest all-cash income needed for such critical necessities as mortgage, food and electricity.

For example; I normally pay Jose and his crew $125 a week to mow and keep up my 3.65 acre yard. I know the little, illegal b*stard is taking me to the cleaners on this one, but the US born yard crew that does Tom’s (777 Capt) yard next door charges him $175. What other choice do I have?

The good news is that Bill has a 10-year-old son that will do my whole yard every week for $45. Sure he has to spend 2 full 8-hour days on the same job that Jose and his 4-man crew finished in 3 hours, but it’s a great deal for Bill Jr. and for me…the classic win-win.

Then there is Karen, Bill’s wife. She is more than willing to help Acacia (my new bride) with chores around the house. Since Acacia, only 29 years old, is relatively inexperienced in running a household this arrangement is a godsend. Because of Karen we have been able to let Jose’s sister go, who was charging us an arm and leg for simple stuff such as house cleaning and dinner preparation. What Karen lacks in cooking experience she makes up for in attitude and a can-do spirit. We save another $100 a week, and Karen and Bill are thrilled with the additional tax-free income.

I could go on with more examples such as Sarah (Bill and Karen’s 12 year-old daughter) who is happy a clam with any babysitting jobs (at only $2/hour) that we can give her for the twins. I think you get the picture.

I believe that FM should run its course in 18 to 24 months. After that I will accept whatever happens and bid Bill, Karen, Bill Jr. and Sarah a fond farewell. Bill will get on with his career and we will be forced to replace our household staff.

 

[General Lee]

Dave Griffen,


You are a joke. You were turned down by Delta, right? Yeah, I thought so. Anyways, FM is a "temporary" means of help during
certain times stipulated by the contract. The section "circumstances for which we have no control" states that regardless of the economy (Hello, our economy is a big reason PAX aren't flying as much), the financial state of the company (Hello??), the relative profitability or UNPROFITABILITY , or the price of fuel----NO FURLOUGHS. Did Leo sign that? YES. Are people scared to fly like they were after 9-11----not really. They are afraid to pay for expensive tickets----see Airtran, Southwest,
Jet Blue and Alaska making some profits. This is not the pilots' fault, it is Marketing's problem. We have a contract---signed.
That is the way it goes. Will the arbitrator see this? Probably not.
But, it isn't our fault. We are a fixed cost. The other employees are not because they do not have contracts. Delta knows exactly how much it will cost them for pilots---hence fixed costs. They can
change the other employees' costs. Do I want them to do that?
Not really. I think most of the pilots would do something to help,
but we don't have to.

The arbitrator also stated that FM will end, and that his sole reason he was allowing the furloughs was because people were scared to fly. He also said there will eventually be a "timely" callback. Live and learn Davey. This will all be over someday.
You Davey, on the other hand, can work for Delta---as a lav dumper.


Bye bye-------General Lee

 

[General Lee]

Wait a second, Dave, you work for Delta? What are you saying?
The junior guys should take a hit for you? Take one for the team, right? You are really out of line. Next contract I think the junior guys should think about helping you and your retirement---nah, you don't need that.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

Guys,

Trainer hit the nail right on the head. Ol' Dave is either bitter, jealous, lonely, or all of the above.

I learned a while ago to ignore him. His opinion means nothing to me. It appears that most on this board agree as evidenced by the lack of response to the vast majority of his posts.

It's a little bit sad, really, to watch someone get so worked up over something that has nothing to do with him (and never will).

I've decided to view him the way Derek Jeter would view a fantasy baseball nerd teasing him about not making the world series this year!

Have fun Dave.

 

[DaveGriffin]

Dave Griffen,
….. Airtran, Southwest,
Jet Blue and Alaska making some profits. This is not the pilots' fault, it is Marketing's problem.
Bye bye-------General Lee

General Lee;

You forget one thing, AirTran, Southwest; JetBlue and Alaska all fly little planes. They don’t fly transoceanic flights. Al Qaeda targeted 757’s and 767’s on transcontinental with full fuel loads. The AA 63 shoe bomber was trying to crash a transatlantic 767 flight. All these big company airplanes carry a lot of passengers and big fuel loads.

OBL wanted to boast he crashed AA and UAL. All the Muslim fascist d*cks in the world would cheer at that. If they saw on CNN that OBL crashed a JetBlue or an Airtran what kind of respect would he get?

Passengers know this very well and to reduce their risk they elect to fly the second tier airlines that employ medium and short-range aircraft. That is why big company loads are way down and the small airlines are doing great.

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

The humorous thing is that it sounds like he really believes such drivel.

It must be refreshing to have such a staggering lack of knowledge of airline finances.

 

[DaveGriffin]

The humorous thing is that it sounds like he really believes such drivel.

It must be refreshing to have such a staggering lack of knowledge of airline finances.

No "finances" at all in that analysis FDJ. Nothing but a very accurate and common sense representation of the facts. That is always something you and your truth-twisting DALPA sisters have a hard time dealing with: the facts.

Why is it that you are such an expert on what the flying public is thinking and doing?

 

[trainerjet]

FDJ,

Good one with the Derek Jeter analogy

BTW, Dave is still making that same "passengers are afraid to fly big airplanes" argument as the reason the low-fare carriers are doing well compared to the largest global airlines. Seems like he's been spouting that BS since he first signed on here. No one was listening then, either.

That one argument alone is proof that he doesn't have the slightest clue.

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

He's kind of amusing though, isn't he?

 

[Cliff]

Dave...

Place the 9MM into your mouth and pull the trigger.. You are giving every Veteran on this site a bad rap...

You are in over your head... You can stop the stupid psych warfare games you are playing..

 

[DaveGriffin]

FDJ,

Dave is still making that same "passengers are afraid to fly big airplanes" argument as the reason the low-fare carriers are doing well compared to the largest global airlines.
That one argument alone is proof that he doesn't have the slightest clue.

I've been saying it exactly as long as you have been crying about FM.

Answer me one question then trainerjet.

Why is it that AirTran, JetBlue and Southwest are all experiencing higher load factors and aren't losing billions. Delta is certainly matching the fares.

I say it is because Joe Public doesn't want to take a chance ending up on a one-way flight to Three Mile Island with Capt. Mohamed Atta at the controls.

 

[AAflyer]

Dave,

Considering two of those three airlines are rather small, one of them having only 30+ planes (and not currently making lease payments on the airplanes) I would find it hard to believe if they WERE losing billions, how can you compare the two.

As for SWA, they just slipped in with a marginal profit, and even anaylists are wondering how they will perform in the 4th.

Where do you get your STATs for passenger enplanements? Please give us source so we may compare the numbers.


AAflyer