DAL system:something to ponder (staple)

[CatYaaak]

DD,
Why do the Delta guys (or anybody else) look out for their military buddies? There is a line in Shakespeare's Henry V (Act IV, Scene III), "We few, we happy few, we band of brothers, for he to-day that sheds his blood with me shall be my brother." That is why the military guys look out for their brothers.

Not to get picky, but after the Battle of Agincourt it's not like King Henry went back to England and bequeathed land and title upon the peasants and men-at-arms (his brothers) who unto these words he spaketh.

And don't go quoting Henry V unless you can rightfully claim to have stacked up the French dead at least as high as he did. He rocked.

 

[~~~^~~~]

General Lee - That is not true and you know it. Have you, or your MEC, ever found one scrap of paper that illustrates how ASA & Comair wanted to be merged with DAL? The answer is no.

ALPA's merger and fragmentation policy leaves it up a process administered by the National Union to determine integration issues. ASA and Comair pilots, through their representatives, their respective MEC's, they did not put forward any type of a merger, integration, or staple, plan.

The Delta MEC takes liberties with the truth more than any other ALPA body I am familiar with. If Fred Reid backed me into a corner like he did your Communications guy, Mike Pinho (sp? on August 1st in Peachtree City) I would have been terribly embarrassed. Instead when caught lying to the pilots your MEC simply says they are reflecting the mood of the Delta pilots and whether or not it is truthful does not matter - perception matters.

What about reality?

 

[~~~^~~~]

However, with some type of "brand" scope protection that only DAL,ASA,CMR pilots would do the flying, that wouldn't necessarily be true. The other DCI carriers would no longer compete with the brand pilots. Good scope....

I want that and am willing to accept short term pain to get there. We would need seat protections though.

 

[46Driver]

CatYaack,
OK, I'm not English but I am a Marine so I will quote Chesty Puller when the millions of Chinese came screaming across the Yalu River. "We're surrounded - that simplifies the problem. Now I can shoot in every direction." And yes, Chesty did pile up hordes of bodies....

 

[MetroSheriff]

Good Ol' Chesty

CatYaack,
OK, I'm not English but I am a Marine so I will quote Chesty Puller when the millions of Chinese came screaming across the Yalu River. We're surrounded - that simplifies the problem. Now I can shoot in every direction. And yes, Chesty did pile up hordes of bodies....

Ahhh, good 'ol Chesty

Chesty Puller was a fightin' Marine
A fightin' Marine was he.
He called for his horse,
He called for his pipe,
And he called for his Privates three.

Beers, beers, beers for my Privates.
Brave men are we.

The army is fair but they can' compare
To the Marines Corps Infantry.


Chesty Puller was a fightin' Marine
AA fightin' Marine was he.
He called for his horse,
He called for his pipe,
And he called for his Corporals three.

Hup two, hup two to my Corporals
Beers, beers, beers for my Privates.
Brave men are we.

The army is fair but they can' compare
To the Marines Corps Infantry.


Chesty Puller was a fightin' Marine
AA fightin' Marine was he.
He called for his horse,
He called for his pipe,
And he called for his Corporals three.

Aye, aye sir to my Sergeants.
Hup two, hup two to my Corporals
Beers, beers, beers for my Privates.
Brave men are we.

The army is fair but they can' compare
To the Marines Corps Infantry.

OORAH!!!

 

[CatYaaak]

CatYaack,
OK, I'm not English but I am a Marine so I will quote Chesty Puller when the millions of Chinese came screaming across the Yalu River. "We're surrounded - that simplifies the problem. Now I can shoot in every direction." And yes, Chesty did pile up hordes of bodies....

Indeed Chesty did. Before my time but my father was there and remembered those Chinese hordes well. Good to see not everyone has forgotten the "Forgotten War".

But my previous post wasn't meant in any way to detract from the brothers-in-arms spirit, for it's very real and rightfully so. I was rather just thinking about how if one must be baptized by fire, doing so at the expense of the French would be particularily satisfying. Went off on a tangent, I did.

Having had to spend far too much time in France over the last year experiencing first-hand their witless protests, strikes, and insufferable pontificating, it becomes rather easy to lapse into daydreams about being part of Henry's little band.

 

[Bill Mostelar]

Agreed

DDay,

That is an excellent summation of the factors at play.

I wish us success.

WM

 

[General Lee]

Fins,

Sorry I did not respond to you sooner but I was on a 3 day. I think you were right when you said there was "nothing in writing" about merging the lists, but I sure heard a lot of people talking about it. Infact, a good friend of mine who was an ASA flight attendant at the time told me that the ASA pilots were actually JUMPING up and down, gloating big time that they were going to get date of hire Staple when they tried to pull out the ALPA merger policy. Jumping up and down. I am telling you the truth. They told her that her husband (a former ASA pilot and current Delta pilot) should have stayed, and they were making fun of her. No joke here.

As far as the Fred Reid meeting and Mike Phino saying what he said, I don't know since I chose not to attend. I believe Dalpa will try to protect our jobs and eventually will give in with some pay cuts, but with everyone included. What can I say? This is how we feel and we won't be treated the same as AA or UA pilots because we didn't go through the same situations. We want to help Delta, and I bet we will eventually--with everyone's help. I should think that you would want us to fly more mainline flights so you can increase yours too---with the contract formula in effect.(percentages) the base chief pilots are currently walking around the lounges asking what we want from management--and we tell them to talk to the nagotiators.(politely) I also tell them to throw in some new 70 seaters for our furloughs.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[~~~^~~~]

General Lee:

I've heard people talking about seeing Elvis at Duncan Doughnuts, your friend of a flight attendant who once new an ASA pilot is not a credible source. That is why I DO bother to listen to folks like Fred Reid talk in person. There are so many ways that what you heard could be misinterpreted, was it to merger Comair and ASA by DOH, then staple, or staple and have benefits accrue by DOH? Who knows and who cares? ALPA's merger policy does not leave it up to crew room gossip.

As far as the 70 seater "growth airplane" goes, you might consider changing domiciles to take the pay cut and fly my airplane. As you have probably read in this thread, ASA has many fewer Captain slots than we had last year and I expect to receive word that I get to return to training to lose my 4th stripe thanks to the displacements.

Things are not as rosy over here as you might believe....

~~~^~~~

P.S. Thanks for working to negotiate a pay cut for employees not even represented by your MEC. As a Captain at ASA I make about 1/3 of what a DAL MD88 First Officer earns. That will be cut to 1/5th as much in the right seat. Then you and DALPA can work to have that cut by another 25% while the DALPA members earn 60% more than the most highly compensated pilot group anywhere on the Planet Earth. But hey, you are trying to take our senior airplane, at least if I were furloughed I would be motivated to get another job, so I've got that going for me - thanks DALPA!

 

[rjcap]

but I sure heard a lot of people talking about it. Infact, a good friend of mine who was an ASA flight attendant at the time told me that the ASA pilots were actually JUMPING up and down, gloating big time that they were going to get date of hire Staple when they tried to pull out the ALPA merger policy. Jumping up and down. I am telling you the truth. They told her that her husband (a former ASA pilot and current Delta pilot) should have stayed, and they were making fun of her.

Nothing like a flight attendant for credible accurate information.

Gen Lee you have reached a new low.

 

[General Lee]

RJCap,

My wife is a flight attendant. She was forced to go to Song (a commute too) from Delta or lose her job. I trust her.


Fins,

The friend I spoke about is my wife's best friend. I trust her--you obviously have some trust issues with your friends. As far as pay cuts---you seem to not be able to see that management wants to gut our contract. If they were really hurting, they would go after the easiest pay cuts available---the ones without contracts. It would be easy. But no, they don't want other unions on the property. And, I didn't say that everyone would have to share exactly with the same percentage cut. I don't know what Dalpa wants exactly, but we don't want to be the only ones to give. We are all in this together, and we should all pay. Yes, we are paid better than other major pilots. The Comair guys are paid better than other regional pilots---so I guess they should take a huge cut too, right? (we all are from the same happy family, right?--and that would really really help Delta pay the bills--why shouldn't they contribute too?--I am being sarcastic)

Look, I don't want you to lose your left seat. I thought ASA was getting 14 more 70 seaters next year? Hopefully you won't. Moving from base to base does suck---and I know guys that have fallen from the 767 to the 737-200 to stay in a base--which resulted in a major pay cut. There are plenty of sad stories, and we have more than 1310 of them. I think Delta is going to find ways to cut all of our pay--and that's the real story. Hopefully times will get better and expansion will prevail eventually.

Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[DDpaysoff]

If we were ever to agree to a staple, it would be after all of the furloughs got back on line--so no one else would be furloughed. But, I don't see Delta management going for it, and I don't see senior Comair/ASA pilots going for it because they already believe they should be in the left seat of mainline aircraft. They might have had a chance to do it pre-9-11, but the Comair/ASA pilots wanted to be integrated instead of the staple. Not gonna happen.

Bye Bye--General Lee

If they really wanted to be integrated they should be slapped. Seat protection is reasonable until all the furloughs return which would be done quickly w/ good scope (All DAL flying done by DAL). By the time this merger took place we would have all your guys back anyway. Once they are back if there are furloughs they start at the bottom. If our MEC dismisses that they do not represent me and probably most of our pilot group. But, that wouldn't be the first time.
For the comair lifers: you can even put in some kind of clause similar to Eagle rights, where an RJ captain can never leave the rj, and can never be displaced or furloughed until furloughs reach his/her DOH. Basically, a "rights" captain is integrated DOH (in current equipment only), until he or she chooses to not become a rights captain.
Fair?? I think so.. I still don't see how anybody loses in this deal.

 

[FlyComAirJets]

Well thought out, Double D. There is the added benefit of your idea really having been tried out as a variation of an existing flow-thru ala Eagle.

Too many times ideas get shot down simply because they have never been tried before. This one has, it needs some modification, however. Just look how much the American pilots keep trying to change it!

If the term "flow thru" has too many negative connotations, just call it a "bidirectional seniority stream" or some such inoffensive terminology.

 

[DDpaysoff]

The only any kind of integration or staple takes place is if DALPA negotiates it. This certainly defies the whole rjdc's argument, but they are the only ones w/ enough negotiating power at DAL to get it done in a future contract. So naturally it would have to benefit them the most. I think it would benefit every dal pilot that has a number right now because it will give them nearly 4,000 numbers of protection and ensures that all future growth is DAL flying. I hope it is sweet enough. This would be revolutionary and would not be done easy, it would take extreme efforts by DALPA to get it done. But, I believe it is possible.

 

[DDpaysoff]

If that is not sweet enough..

AAI and LUV are not stopping. They are flat out stealing market share. Until, DAL thinks out of the box they will continue to lose this fight. Having the kind of flexibility to operate aircraft to meet demand w/out scope would maybe give DAL the kind of flexibility to not only slow down the losing, but maybe beat the competition for the first time in a long time. If DALPA wants to protect their jobs, they should protect their company as well. It sounds like they were trying to do that in the last negotiation but mgmt. was not going to listen and DALPA left the table. Just think how much resistance mgmt. will give if DALPA tried to incorportate an integration in their next contract. None of the three mgmt. teams would want an integration for three different reasons I might add, so this is NEARLY an impossible chance. But, stranger things have happened.