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DAL Pilots to Picket in MSP and DTW
- Thread starter NuGuy
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If it's called for I'm glad we are organized and ready to act in a variety of ways.
Still no telling exactly how this will play out, but it's good to be prepared to respond.
Pilot Talks Could Boost
Delta, Northwest Deal
By SUSAN CAREY and PAULO PRADA
April 8, 2008 7:56 p.m.
Delta Air Lines Inc. and Northwest Airlines Corp. could be in a position to proceed with their long-delayed merger announcement as early as next week if Delta management succeeds in current talks with its own carrier's pilots, said people familiar with the situation.
With fuel prices at historically high levels and the economy weakening, Delta and Northwest are under increasing financial pressure that has made a merger look even more compelling. A combination of the nation's No. 3 and 5 airlines by traffic would create the world's biggest airline, with a larger network that could boost revenue and reduce some costs.
They also are running out of time to get a transaction vetted by the current Bush Administration Justice Department, a strategy they prefer to waiting for a new team to arrive in Washington in January.
The complicating factor all along has been their pilots, who have been at loggerheads over how to integrate their separate seniority lists in a merged airline. Now it seems that Delta at least is leaning toward treating the pilot groups differently -- at least initially -- if the combination goes ahead, these people said.
Delta and its 6,000 pilots, represented by the Air Line Pilots Association union, have in recent days been in talks about a new contract that would go into effect if the merger is consummated, but only for Delta aviators, said knowledgeable individuals. A spokesman for the Delta pilots group declined to comment. A spokeswoman for the airline declined to comment on any discussions with its pilots or other airlines.
The Delta pilots are being asked to agree to drop certain restrictions in their current labor agreement in order to give the combined airline more flexibility during the first phase of the merger. In return for dropping language that would limit the merged carrier's flexibility,the Delta pilots would receive pay raises, equity and a board seat, sweeteners perhaps not as generous as those contemplated a few months ago but similar, said one person.
Northwest's 5,000 aviators, represented by another branch of the same union, would keep their current contract, which pays them less generously than the Delta pilots even today.That inequity would give the Northwest group an incentive to find accord with the Delta group on seniority, either through negotiation or arbitration, because they then would be able to negotiate improved, Delta-level pay either when the deal closes or afterward, these people indicated.
A spokesman for the Northwest union group declined to comment.
The current Northwest pilot contract doesn't have as much language that would restrict Delta and Northwest in a combination, people familiar with the matter said. But the quicker the Northwest and Delta pilots have the same contract and are on a single seniority list, the faster the combined company could begin integrating its fleet, scheduling and other operations, reaping immediate savings.
People close to the situation said Delta and its pilots are negotiating, and Delta hopes to reach a decision about how and when to proceed by the end of this week. But issues still could arise to delay or kill the deal. It's also not certain the Delta pilot leadership will agree to final terms of a new, post-merger contract in time for a deal to be announced next week, they said. The new contract terms also would need to be ratified by the Delta pilot membership in the coming months.
But the gist of the transaction would contain many of the same features as the one the two carriers were close to announcing in late February, before the pilot seniority dispute derailed that plan. Terms include a share swap a near market rates, with a slight premium for Northwest holders; an investment by European marketing partner Air France-KLM SA; and retention of the Delta name, headquarters and chief executive officer, Richard Anderson.
Seniority is important to pilots because it dictates which types of planes they fly and whether they are captains or first officers, two determinants of pay, along with when they can take time off and whether they would be laid off in a downsizing. Delta pilots claimed Northwest pilots' proposals would jeopardize their members' seniority and hurt their career prospects. Northwest's pilots offered to put the issue to a neutral arbitrator, a plan the Delta pilots rejected.
After a lull last month, Northwest revived the merger idea, making a proposal to Delta that the two go ahead -- but without a common pilot labor contract and seniority agreement covering all 11,000 aviators upfront. That is the way most airline mergers work, leaving it to the pilots after consummation to wrangle over seniority, ultimately put the matter to arbitration, and then bargain with management on a new contract. The process can take years.
By reaching agreement with Delta pilots sooner, the merged airline could shorten that process. Such a step also could win the Delta pilots' support and set the tone of Delta labor relations right from the date of the merger, said one person familiar with the matter. Mr. Anderson, Delta's CEO, has said he doesn't want to do a deal unless his workers' seniority is protected. He was a proponent of trying to work everything out with both pilot groups before the merger, an idea that now is losing currency.
Still no telling exactly how this will play out, but it's good to be prepared to respond.
Pilot Talks Could Boost
Delta, Northwest Deal
By SUSAN CAREY and PAULO PRADA
April 8, 2008 7:56 p.m.
Delta Air Lines Inc. and Northwest Airlines Corp. could be in a position to proceed with their long-delayed merger announcement as early as next week if Delta management succeeds in current talks with its own carrier's pilots, said people familiar with the situation.
With fuel prices at historically high levels and the economy weakening, Delta and Northwest are under increasing financial pressure that has made a merger look even more compelling. A combination of the nation's No. 3 and 5 airlines by traffic would create the world's biggest airline, with a larger network that could boost revenue and reduce some costs.
They also are running out of time to get a transaction vetted by the current Bush Administration Justice Department, a strategy they prefer to waiting for a new team to arrive in Washington in January.
The complicating factor all along has been their pilots, who have been at loggerheads over how to integrate their separate seniority lists in a merged airline. Now it seems that Delta at least is leaning toward treating the pilot groups differently -- at least initially -- if the combination goes ahead, these people said.
Delta and its 6,000 pilots, represented by the Air Line Pilots Association union, have in recent days been in talks about a new contract that would go into effect if the merger is consummated, but only for Delta aviators, said knowledgeable individuals. A spokesman for the Delta pilots group declined to comment. A spokeswoman for the airline declined to comment on any discussions with its pilots or other airlines.
The Delta pilots are being asked to agree to drop certain restrictions in their current labor agreement in order to give the combined airline more flexibility during the first phase of the merger. In return for dropping language that would limit the merged carrier's flexibility,the Delta pilots would receive pay raises, equity and a board seat, sweeteners perhaps not as generous as those contemplated a few months ago but similar, said one person.
Northwest's 5,000 aviators, represented by another branch of the same union, would keep their current contract, which pays them less generously than the Delta pilots even today.That inequity would give the Northwest group an incentive to find accord with the Delta group on seniority, either through negotiation or arbitration, because they then would be able to negotiate improved, Delta-level pay either when the deal closes or afterward, these people indicated.
A spokesman for the Northwest union group declined to comment.
The current Northwest pilot contract doesn't have as much language that would restrict Delta and Northwest in a combination, people familiar with the matter said. But the quicker the Northwest and Delta pilots have the same contract and are on a single seniority list, the faster the combined company could begin integrating its fleet, scheduling and other operations, reaping immediate savings.
People close to the situation said Delta and its pilots are negotiating, and Delta hopes to reach a decision about how and when to proceed by the end of this week. But issues still could arise to delay or kill the deal. It's also not certain the Delta pilot leadership will agree to final terms of a new, post-merger contract in time for a deal to be announced next week, they said. The new contract terms also would need to be ratified by the Delta pilot membership in the coming months.
But the gist of the transaction would contain many of the same features as the one the two carriers were close to announcing in late February, before the pilot seniority dispute derailed that plan. Terms include a share swap a near market rates, with a slight premium for Northwest holders; an investment by European marketing partner Air France-KLM SA; and retention of the Delta name, headquarters and chief executive officer, Richard Anderson.
Seniority is important to pilots because it dictates which types of planes they fly and whether they are captains or first officers, two determinants of pay, along with when they can take time off and whether they would be laid off in a downsizing. Delta pilots claimed Northwest pilots' proposals would jeopardize their members' seniority and hurt their career prospects. Northwest's pilots offered to put the issue to a neutral arbitrator, a plan the Delta pilots rejected.
After a lull last month, Northwest revived the merger idea, making a proposal to Delta that the two go ahead -- but without a common pilot labor contract and seniority agreement covering all 11,000 aviators upfront. That is the way most airline mergers work, leaving it to the pilots after consummation to wrangle over seniority, ultimately put the matter to arbitration, and then bargain with management on a new contract. The process can take years.
By reaching agreement with Delta pilots sooner, the merged airline could shorten that process. Such a step also could win the Delta pilots' support and set the tone of Delta labor relations right from the date of the merger, said one person familiar with the matter. Mr. Anderson, Delta's CEO, has said he doesn't want to do a deal unless his workers' seniority is protected. He was a proponent of trying to work everything out with both pilot groups before the merger, an idea that now is losing currency.
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ACL65PILOT
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Heyas,
Since rumors are a hot topic here...the latest one around NWA is that the Delta BOD gave RA marching orders to do the deal with or without the pilots.
An WSJ article has mentioned that the BoD itself could be subject to replacement by the equity holders if this doesn't happen.
More scuttlebutt is that the DAL guys/gals are only going to protest NWA management, not DAL, for pushing the merger.
But enough rumors...I assume you guys are going to picket in ATL, JFK and SLC, too, right?
Nu
Clacker
Merkwürdigeliebe.
- Joined
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"...In return for dropping language that would limit the merged carrier's flexibility,the Delta pilots would receive pay raises, equity and a board seat, sweeteners perhaps not as generous as those contemplated a few months ago but similar, said one person.
Northwest's 5,000 aviators, represented by another branch of the same union, would keep their current contract, which pays them less generously than the Delta pilots even today.That inequity would give the Northwest group an incentive to find accord with the Delta group on seniority, either through negotiation or arbitration, because they then would be able to negotiate improved, Delta-level pay either when the deal closes or afterward, these people indicated..."
Ah yes, the ol' "carrot and stick" approach.
This should go a long ways towards achieving labor harmony...
Northwest's 5,000 aviators, represented by another branch of the same union, would keep their current contract, which pays them less generously than the Delta pilots even today.That inequity would give the Northwest group an incentive to find accord with the Delta group on seniority, either through negotiation or arbitration, because they then would be able to negotiate improved, Delta-level pay either when the deal closes or afterward, these people indicated..."
Ah yes, the ol' "carrot and stick" approach.
This should go a long ways towards achieving labor harmony...
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Occam's Razor
Risible...ALWAYS risible
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tomgoodman
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Don't do it
I certainly hope not. It sounds like "stick 'em with a B-scale until they cave." That would lay an egg of disunity which would hatch during the next contract negotiation, to the delight of management. :bomb:
I certainly hope not. It sounds like "stick 'em with a B-scale until they cave." That would lay an egg of disunity which would hatch during the next contract negotiation, to the delight of management. :bomb:
Fly4hire
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http://www.clickondetroit.com/news/15828596/detail.html
Do you still think RA is your buddy, or that all of this is not another scene in the ballet of a carefully orchestrated plan for a long ago predetermined outcome?
Do you really think that it's the evil Doug Steenland who is pushing this merger, after uncle Richard said he'd wouldn't do the merger without the cooperation of the two pilot groups?
Sure, go picket in MSP, that'll show em'. RA is your friend - he even told you so.
Be careful you don't slip on the ice and hurt yourselves.....
Do you still think RA is your buddy, or that all of this is not another scene in the ballet of a carefully orchestrated plan for a long ago predetermined outcome?
Do you really think that it's the evil Doug Steenland who is pushing this merger, after uncle Richard said he'd wouldn't do the merger without the cooperation of the two pilot groups?
Sure, go picket in MSP, that'll show em'. RA is your friend - he even told you so.
Be careful you don't slip on the ice and hurt yourselves.....
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~~~^~~~
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Who knows what this means!?! This sounds like another scope sale to me.
Again, who knows what this means? We do know that NWA's fragmentation language was thought to be an issue.
Using Occam's Razor to determine the most likely truth, it sounds like a scope sale with NorthWest's DC-9 pilots put on the front lines.
Crud, I hope we do not outsource more flying. ...
In other oddly timed news I recieved a draft of a shot across the bow to Prater from the RJDC leadership on scope negotiations in this deal.
Again, who knows what this means? We do know that NWA's fragmentation language was thought to be an issue.
Using Occam's Razor to determine the most likely truth, it sounds like a scope sale with NorthWest's DC-9 pilots put on the front lines.
Crud, I hope we do not outsource more flying. ...
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~~~^~~~
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The NWA pilots left 2 Billion and relative seniority on the table. The NWA pilots expected a screw job. It appears expectations are being met.
NWA pilots causing a problem? NWA management's solution... do the deal without the pilots.
I do not like it either. This kind of brinkmanship is exactly what leads to disasterous mergers.
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ACL65PILOT
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Even though some of the DAL pilots may see short term gains here, long term I see a very divided pilot group. We CANNOT sell out NWAALPA for this deal. If we do that we will never be able to fight a unified flight.
Anything that does this may benefit me personally, but I would never vote for it. Simply because some things are bigger than me.
I like FDJ's comments on who needs the whack with the shovel. That is open to a lot of interpretation. I would venture to guess that this deal will be done very quickly or it will end up like USAir. I doubt that there will be much middle ground.
Anything that does this may benefit me personally, but I would never vote for it. Simply because some things are bigger than me.
I like FDJ's comments on who needs the whack with the shovel. That is open to a lot of interpretation. I would venture to guess that this deal will be done very quickly or it will end up like USAir. I doubt that there will be much middle ground.
michael707767
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I agree. I can see it now.
"The Delta pilots agree to a 2% pay raise in 2012 and 100 million in equity in the new company (distribution to be determined at a later date) in return for eliminating their merger and fragmentation protections and allowing an additional 100 76 seat RJs. In related news, Lee Moak is announced as the next VP of flight ops at Delta."
AA717driver
A simpler time...
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The voice of reason and experience. Thank you, Tom. TC
P.S.--This is an effort to strong-arm the NWA pilots into accepting DALPA's deal. Anyone who is afraid of arbitration has something to hide...
ACL65PILOT
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I don't think RA or DALPA is stupid enough to sell the NWA pilots out. I think there is a little leakage here and there in the media to put pressure on both sides to work something out. This may be the last chance to "agree" on something that will be far less painful than the alternative which will soon follow and rear its ugly head(s).
ACL65PILOT
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ACL65PILOT
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Yes, and that is what has me worried.
I agree with what we have talked about FIN. National has to rear its children it, if not all is lost. We are two of the big four. Not good for long term viability of this union.
I am guessing that all will work out in the end. Problem is that NWA is probably listening to our old ALPA president and they may be making some bad assumptions.
I agree with what we have talked about FIN. National has to rear its children it, if not all is lost. We are two of the big four. Not good for long term viability of this union.
I am guessing that all will work out in the end. Problem is that NWA is probably listening to our old ALPA president and they may be making some bad assumptions.
~~~^~~~
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Had not considered Woerth.
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Anyone who embraces arbitration over leadership and negotiation is a fool.
DALPA doesn't negotiate for NWAALPA and is therefore in no position to "sell the NWA pilots out."
The NWA pilots are big boys and girls with their own MEC and their own strategy and priorities.
UAL pilots recently had a picket line in ATL, the DAL pilots opened up space in our MEC offices to help them out. I don't think anyone thought it was disrespectful.
GogglesPisano
Pawn, in game of life
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Superpilot92
LONGCALL KING
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DALALPA should absolutely ashamed of themselves. They are sucking on mgmt tieet and know it. They are doing nothing but fostering another round of Lorenzo tactics and contributing to mgmt union busting attempts. Are you not ALPA? WTF!! You guys screwed the pooch the first time on scope and now it appears you are going to try and do it again. YOU ARE GIVING AWAY YOUR/OUR JOBS WHEN YOU DO THIS!! I am in disgust
uke:
You know that persona and ego you guys like to carry, well nothing will destroy the Delta Pride like trying to pull this off.
Unless we start working together as a single pilot group we will never win against mgmt.
uke: You know that persona and ego you guys like to carry, well nothing will destroy the Delta Pride like trying to pull this off.
Unless we start working together as a single pilot group we will never win against mgmt.
generaltso
Marcy Projects
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Nothing like a guy who has been at a major for a month to break it down for everyone.
Noserider76
Teahupoo
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The permit was taken out as a reaction to the NWA management suggestion to go around the pilots to do the deal. NWA board/management would be the target. You think they would picket the NWA pilot group? DALPA has been more than on top of this thing from the beginning. They are no plans to picket to my knowledge but they are prepared for any eventuality.
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