DAL pilots as dumb as CAL pilots?

[General Lee]

General et al,

Do you work for mgmt? You never say anything ill of your beloved DAL despite getting repeatedly screwed since your first concessionary contract. You guys screwed the pooch at a time when you had the leverage to get a your paycut returned to you. And you sit here and brag?

Comparing your contract to a CAL one is a bit like a highschool honor roll student, who just failed a course, telling a pre-schooler how much better at math he is. It still won't change the fact that he failed a course.

We all know the CAL contract sucks. And we all know CAL pilots are idiots for voting it in. Read the title of my post. But we took our hit back when you guys did in 04-05. We were offered up something better last summer ('08) but we didn't take the bait instead chosing to fight for an industry-leading agreement... which we will get.

This is about labor and union leadership falling for mgmt's excuse of "sorry guys there just isn't any more money to give". Mgmt will always find the funds for whatever venture they have, be it new airplanes, a new terminal, or a new route structure. PILOTs ought not to be the ones paying for that venture. Put another way, had you fought for a proper raise, you'd have gotten it.

Yes, General, I realize there is an small grain of potential for a JAL tie-up to lead to more flying for you guys. But be real. If the JAL pilots can do that flying for less they will. It will go to the cheapest bidder.

Back to the point of the thead. Mgmt has the money. Don't take the bait.

I guess you missed the last part of my post stating we ALL had work to do on our future contracts. I have continually said we got "robbed" in BK thanks to the judge, and we need to make up a lot of what we lost. My problem right now with this JAL venture is we know NOTHING about what is happening, except that Dalpa has approved it. We don't have very good communication, and that makes a lot of us mad. Also, we should get something out of the deal, not just "it will make us a stronger airline", since usually that means management will get bonuses, and we won't. Trust me, I am not management, but I do think we are doing well as an airline overall, and I hope we as a union get back a lot of what we lost in BK. The timing also has to be right, since our Joint Contract with NWA was negotiated during $140 a barrel oil. Fingers crossed!


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

How many billion does DAL have to lose before you guys finally recognize that you are not at the top of the heap?

Q: who is stupider, the guy who works for a company that has not been through BK and trashed all its benefits-all while losing tens of billions, or the other guy-who may not have the best contract ever, but works for a company which has consistently turned a profit?

-I know, SWA sucks because they wear funny clothes, American sucks because they HAVE NOT been through BK (at least according to Gen Lee.) And CAL sucks because they make money, but have a crappy contract-and so on and so forth, and blah, and blah, and blah.....

-That sub commander getup must just suck all critical thinking ability right out of one's head...

-Whatever-believe whatever you need to in order to make your little view of the world work, but let's not criticize people who have chosen to make a sound enough choice to go and work for a company which has made an actual profit in the last decade or so.

Go back to McRonalds, the bathroom needs cleaning you clown. All of your ranting does no good from the cheap seats. I never said those other airlines "suck", but there are differences that are noteworthy. Some like those differences, but they are not for everyone. You, on the other hand, are likely stuck at a deadend RJ job, that is slowly getting smaller due to managements' waking up to the realization that RJs don't work against 717s. The new FAA rest rules will make your part of the industry even more unprofitable, and you will feel it. Now junior, go tend to something that you might actually be good at---the fry machine.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[RedDogC130]

Q: who is stupider.

the guy who goes to fly for a regional who's company's sole existence is to steal flights away from the mainline who then has to take pay cuts and furloughs to stay in business....but the same guy who is flying for the regional would take a job with the mainline....who is stupider..I think you

 

[whymeworry?]

Fair enough, General. Let's all remember not to take the bait next time (like we did at CAL). Regardless of where oil is price, lack of cash/ equity, new aircraft acq costs. The price of a pilot is just that. Time for US airline mgmts to pay up.

 

[General Lee]

Fair enough, General. Let's all remember not to take the bait next time (like we did at CAL). Regardless of where oil is price, lack of cash/ equity, new aircraft acq costs. The price of a pilot is just that. Time for US airline mgmts to pay up.

I agree. We all need to recoup next time. And, we are really watching our MEC this time, and a lot of the "yes men" are on the way out....along with our secret weapon---the NWA Cobras--- Finally, some backbone!


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[EL10]

IMHO if DAL/Skyteam gets JAL to join, you can bank on DAL significantly down sizing the Asia flying and letting JAL do it. So be careful of what you ask for.

 

[General Lee]

IMHO if DAL/Skyteam gets JAL to join, you can bank on DAL significantly down sizing the Asia flying and letting JAL do it. So be careful of what you ask for.

But wait, our MEC leader said we approve it......what could go wrong???...TIC.

FWIW, the AF Joint Venture has some growth potential, but there are some downsides. We don't even fly from JFK to CDG nonstop anymore (only AF), but they did give us PHL and PIT to CDG (on 757s), and we almost flew RDU to CDG before the recession hit.

There had better be some guarantees, and LM better explain himself and the benefits.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[ACL65PILOT]

But wait, our MEC leader said we approve it......what could go wrong???...TIC.

FWIW, the AF Joint Venture has some growth potential, but there are some downsides. We don't even fly from JFK to CDG nonstop anymore (only AF), but they did give us PHL and PIT to CDG (on 757s), and we almost flew RDU to CDG before the recession hit.

There had better be some guarantees, and LM better explain himself and the benefits.


Bye Bye--General Lee

Lee from the constant back and forth I am doing with our union guys, the consensus that I am getting is that we better get it to keep what we have. I have been pushing for a quid pro quo, but after the many discussions I have had, I am not holding my breath.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Hence, I rest my point. You guys took the bait so did we. The threat of an ugly merger unless you sign on this "deal" now. Just as we CAL pilots took the bait in 04-05... the threat of the company filing CH11 unless we sign this deal now (this was told to us by our union officials, who all now work in mgmt btw, not by the company). Right after we signed, mgmt suddenly had the money to fund 111 new aircraft orders, winglets for 737-300s, 500s, NGs, 757-200s, money for upgrading terminals, etc. Oh, and they even paid themselves $50 million in bonus' immediately after we signed. And those bonuses continue to climb every year, despite our losing money.

The point is, the price of a pilot is the price of a pilot. They'll have to pay whatever we tell them to becuase we tell them to. The money is there. It always is. But if we cower in fear and intimidation we can all continue this death spiral to the bottom.

Even Alaska airlines recently inducted a poor contract (not a slight against any pilot there, but y'all should've asked for more). Every pilot group these days seems too scared to stand up for their profession, yet is all too eager to stand up for their airline (The General is really good at this. DAL can do no wrong in his eyes)... which has all the money for everything but an increase in pilot compensation.

Ironaically, the airline we all love to hate (for their incrediblely successful fuel hedges), SWA was the only pilot group of late to stand up to mgmt and call them at their game. They voted down a sub-standard TA and didn't cower with fear.

Remember, this is not about whose airline is better or whose contract is better. This is about being pressured into accepting less than your worth because of some impending threat by mgmt and the union.

I do not slam CAL pilots. You guys made certain choices to keep certain things. Some would call it throwing the junior guys under the bus some would not. In the end it does not matter as it is done. Same with us. we blinked at the threat of CH 11, and then once in the company had the 1113C guy firmly planted on our temple. Not much we could do there.
AMR took cuts to avoid 11, UAUA took cuts to avoid 11. In the end we all did what we had to do. In the end we are all compensated around the same amount.
That is why we want you and AMR to do well. It will make it so much easier for us in 2012.

Now out of 1113C we all want restoration, scope reversal etc. We are trying to mid term improvements, but we need the opportunities to do that.

 

[contrail67]

Go back to fluffing your horse....

I think you meant "stroking your pony".

 

[crj567]

the guy who goes to fly for a regional who's company's sole existence is to steal flights away from the mainline who then has to take pay cuts and furloughs to stay in business....but the same guy who is flying for the regional would take a job with the mainline....who is stupider..I think you

Where did that great "scope" come from?

I think you

-Plus-Just fly 737s to CSG and MOB and VLD all day and see how much money you lose.....

 

[Speedtape]

It's a pity--Professionals in the same Profession as well as the same Union, but at different companies, attacking each other for something none of you had control over! It's akin to a gang mentality as opposed to playing on the same team and pulling on the same end of the rope. Where's your sign?--or Gang Sign? You are giving Joe Merchant bullets for his gun!

No contract is safe when there are wide gaps and major disparity. Would it not be smart to support each other and use the "pull through or up method" to get everyone at the same level? No airline has the same history and that is why there are differences in Pilot Working Agreements.

Instead, let's do something management can't do but benefits, let's attack each other for the sins of our fathers, and promote disunity! When you throw cats in a barrel, who wins? If I am at Airline C, I should rejoice if Airline D improves their contract beyond the bounds of my contract. Then, if I am at airline D, I should hope that through my Union's leadership, that the tools and influence are used to help Airline C achieve similar or better gains, otherwise, mine will never be safe--never!

Having pride in your Airline is great--we all want to be on a winning team! However, until each of us understands the benefits of promoting and supporting our Profession and it's pilots, at whatever airline, as goal number One, our Profession will never advance, and no one's contractual gains will be safe, or long-lived! That's the winning team I want to be on!

Now let's get back to the same old games and internet sport of tearing each other down! Although it does not promote unity, it makes some feel better about themselves--a sick form of self-actualization!

 

[RSRVWINDSURFR]

CAL's scope is about the only good thing they have going for them. CAL's pay is not the highest, their management is hostile towards their group right now, they had a crazy bid that moved pilots out of EWR, even though the flights through there haven't changed.....they have furloughs, if they had newhires right now they wouldn't have insurance for their first 6 months, and to top it off they are thinking about merging with United. Their scope does not allow anything over 50 seats, but they have parked a lot of their smaller 737s (735s) that used to fly all around the NE, and are now replacing them with Dash-8-400s---which have no limits. Yes, they don't have anything larger than 50 seats for jets, but that also means their feed operation is destined to fail---since we all know 50 seaters are on the way out. I would hope that the CAL pilots never allow more than 50 seats, and would fly anything larger for themselves---which would be a step we never took, and one in the right direction. But they also have a lot of other things to fix, just like the rest of us.


Bye Bye---General Lee

I don't know why Whymeworry? got upset by this post. GL pretty much nailed it... Oh, and there are no pilots stupider than the majority of the top third of the CAL senority list.

 

[EMBpilot]

Dear DAL pilots,

Thanks for being as dumb as the 58% of CAL pilots who voted in C'02. Your ignorance in voting in another 4-yr sub-standard CBA allowed us to use that extra $1 billion laying around to court JAL.

Sincerely,

DAL Exective Mgmt.
http://atlanta.bizjournals.com/atlanta/stories/2009/11/16/daily94.html?ana=yfcpc

It's OK, it's credit anyway.
DAL guys are no comparison to CAL's. Just remember Delta took a 50% cut and CAL - 8%. Makes you wonder were both were before, ah?

 

[BUDDHA145]

There is absolutely no way DAL pilots are as dumb as CAL pilots.

Yes there is!!!!! The poster....

 

[Ben Franklin]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ROn_9302UHg

Sincerely,

B. Franklin

 

[SFR]

There is absolutely no way DAL pilots are as dumb as CAL pilots.

I don't know. I spoke with one of my DAL 757 friends today and he said that he has not flown since August. Now I on teh other hand, a CAL 756 FO has not flown since Oct 13th.

He said that he likes working for DAL, how dumb is that!! I like CAL, I know that I am dumb too!!!

We are just two idiots, sitting at home and getting paid for it.. Gosh, I love being a moron.