DAL pilots as dumb as CAL pilots?

ACL65PILOT

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Read the article. DAL is not using an extra billion it has sitting around. A couple hundred million in the bank yes, but the rest is from other sources.

As for the CBA, not as good as it might have been, but it brought to very different working groups under the same PWA, it equaled out our pay, gave a road map for a successful merger, and made every other thing we normally piss and moan about with mergers moot, so as far as pay goes, we are getting raises when everyone else is stagnant.
It was not perfect, but it is far from a shot between the eyes. Put the fricken thing in context.

As for JAL, it is very important that we garner access to Haneda one way or another. It is important for DAL pilots too! I have stated we should get a decent quid pro quo for taking on the risk of a sick company in a bad economy, but in the end if DAL wins this deal our MEC better make sure it is beneficial to our pilots. I as many have given our input to our reps. All we can do is watch events unfold!
 

Patriot328

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There is absolutely no way DAL pilots are as dumb as CAL pilots.
 

Scope out RJ's

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Dear DAL pilots,

Thanks for being as dumb as the 58% of CAL pilots who voted in C'02. Your ignorance in voting in another 4-yr sub-standard CBA allowed us to use that extra $1 billion laying around to court JAL.

Sincerely,

DAL Exective Mgmt.
http://atlanta.bizjournals.com/atlanta/stories/2009/11/16/daily94.html?ana=yfcpc
Maybe you should divert your stupidity elsewhere. AMR's management is willing to pony up $1billion (or more) towards JAL, and yet they've been unwilling to negotiate any kind of payraises with any of their labor contracts of which just about all are in contract negotiations.
 

SuperFLUF

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For the record; it was 52% that voted in POS '02 (after the hard sell by CALALPA & ALPA national "tools" in the toolbox).

So that's 6% less dumb? :(
 

HalinTexas

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Of course DALPA was "genius" to scope out RJs in 1996. First year pay at CALPA is reason enough to put them on the honor roll. UALPA's ESOP+ plan. Then there's APA approved "B scale." Last, but certainly most, "concessionary contracts" under 1113(c) threats. Shall I go on you smart, glass-house-dwelling stone throwers?

Management is incompetent then corrupt. Unions lie, then take your money, and chastise you for lack of solidarity.

Lead, follow or get out of the way. I prefer answer "C."
 

General Lee

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Dear DAL pilots,

Thanks for being as dumb as the 58% of CAL pilots who voted in C'02. Your ignorance in voting in another 4-yr sub-standard CBA allowed us to use that extra $1 billion laying around to court JAL.

Sincerely,

DAL Exective Mgmt.
http://atlanta.bizjournals.com/atlanta/stories/2009/11/16/daily94.html?ana=yfcpc

Have we actually "pulled the trigger" yet? How about we are driving the price UP to see if AA has the ballz to go for it? They are weaker than we are (they never went BK---which has them UNFORTUNATELY at a disadvantge). Also, Crandal and others drove up the price of the Pan Am Europe routes during the Ron Allen days at DL, which means payback time. AA and OneWorld really don't want to lose JAL, and it will be interesting to see what happens. If we get the deal done ourselves, we will all look at Moak and Company and know where to lay blame if it doesn't work out for all of us. Thanks for caring...


Bye Bye--General Lee
 

General Lee

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Take a look at CAL scope and then look at DAL scope, and ask yourself who are the dumb pilots?
CAL's scope is about the only good thing they have going for them. CAL's pay is not the highest, their management is hostile towards their group right now, they had a crazy bid that moved pilots out of EWR, even though the flights through there haven't changed.....they have furloughs, if they had newhires right now they wouldn't have insurance for their first 6 months, and to top it off they are thinking about merging with United. Their scope does not allow anything over 50 seats, but they have parked a lot of their smaller 737s (735s) that used to fly all around the NE, and are now replacing them with Dash-8-400s---which have no limits. Yes, they don't have anything larger than 50 seats for jets, but that also means their feed operation is destined to fail---since we all know 50 seaters are on the way out. I would hope that the CAL pilots never allow more than 50 seats, and would fly anything larger for themselves---which would be a step we never took, and one in the right direction. But they also have a lot of other things to fix, just like the rest of us.


Bye Bye---General Lee
 

Patriot328

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Take a look at CAL scope and then look at DAL scope, and ask yourself who are the dumb pilots?
I would normally hand over my contract for review to prove my point, but currently some management person is wiping their ass with it....

GL covered the rest of it.
 

michael707767

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I would normally hand over my contract for review to prove my point, but currently some management person is wiping their ass with it....

GL covered the rest of it.
all good points. But you know what, everything else in a contract is negotiable. Once you give away scope, it is gone forever. Delta pilots will never take back 76 seat or less scope. Which effectively means we will never see a 100 seater at the mainline, since there is no way they will ever fly an aircraft at the mainline that is only 24 seats larger than DCI.
 

crj567

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How many billion does DAL have to lose before you guys finally recognize that you are not at the top of the heap?

Q: who is stupider, the guy who works for a company that has not been through BK and trashed all its benefits-all while losing tens of billions, or the other guy-who may not have the best contract ever, but works for a company which has consistently turned a profit?

-I know, SWA sucks because they wear funny clothes, American sucks because they HAVE NOT been through BK (at least according to Gen Lee.) And CAL sucks because they make money, but have a crappy contract-and so on and so forth, and blah, and blah, and blah.....

-That sub commander getup must just suck all critical thinking ability right out of one's head...

-Whatever-believe whatever you need to in order to make your little view of the world work, but let's not criticize people who have chosen to make a sound enough choice to go and work for a company which has made an actual profit in the last decade or so.
 
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Pocono Pilot

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CAL pilots are definitely the dumbest pilots ever.

I used to think that retards were dumb, but CAL pilots make retards look smart. LOL
 

Superpilot92

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oh sweet, another "My airline's better than your airline" thread!!

This is uber awesomeness!!
 

whymeworry?

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Read the article. DAL is not using an extra billion it has sitting around. A couple hundred million in the bank yes, but the rest is from other sources.

As for the CBA, not as good as it might have been, but it brought to very different working groups under the same PWA, it equaled out our pay, gave a road map for a successful merger, and made every other thing we normally piss and moan about with mergers moot, so as far as pay goes, we are getting raises when everyone else is stagnant.
It was not perfect, but it is far from a shot between the eyes. Put the fricken thing in context.

As for JAL, it is very important that we garner access to Haneda one way or another. It is important for DAL pilots too! I have stated we should get a decent quid pro quo for taking on the risk of a sick company in a bad economy, but in the end if DAL wins this deal our MEC better make sure it is beneficial to our pilots. I as many have given our input to our reps. All we can do is watch events unfold!
I read the article. Other sources could've meant your increased stock options as well. Why is it you guys always make excuses for your mgmt and your union's shafting? You already signed a concessionary contract. And with the threat of the merger looming y'all got scared and took the bait for a below average contract for another 4 years.
 

whymeworry?

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General et al,

Do you work for mgmt? You never say anything ill of your beloved DAL despite getting repeatedly screwed since your first concessionary contract. You guys screwed the pooch at a time when you had the leverage to get a your paycut returned to you. And you sit here and brag?

Comparing your contract to a CAL one is a bit like a highschool honor roll student, who just failed a course, telling a pre-schooler how much better at math he is. It still won't change the fact that he failed a course.

We all know the CAL contract sucks. And we all know CAL pilots are idiots for voting it in. Read the title of my post. But we took our hit back when you guys did in 04-05. We were offered up something better last summer ('08) but we didn't take the bait instead chosing to fight for an industry-leading agreement... which we will get.

This is about labor and union leadership falling for mgmt's excuse of "sorry guys there just isn't any more money to give". Mgmt will always find the funds for whatever venture they have, be it new airplanes, a new terminal, or a new route structure. PILOTs ought not to be the ones paying for that venture. Put another way, had you fought for a proper raise, you'd have gotten it.

Yes, General, I realize there is an small grain of potential for a JAL tie-up to lead to more flying for you guys. But be real. If the JAL pilots can do that flying for less they will. It will go to the cheapest bidder.

Back to the point of the thead. Mgmt has the money. Don't take the bait.
 

ACL65PILOT

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I read the article. Other sources could've meant your increased stock options as well. Why is it you guys always make excuses for your mgmt and your union's shafting? You already signed a concessionary contract. And with the threat of the merger looming y'all got scared and took the bait for a below average contract for another 4 years.

Go to the other board and see how much we are defending management. We have no deal with JAL or the Company on this, yet.

We all want restoration. I am at the top of that list. I agree that the contract we are under is concessionary. It is the 1113C contract with a little more pay. Way to long, IMHO, but as they say that is water under the bridge, and management will state a contract is a contract.
2012 is fast approaching and many are already out for blood. If LM is true to his word he is in his last term.
 

whymeworry?

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Go to the other board and see how much we are defending management. We have no deal with JAL or the Company on this, yet.

We all want restoration. I am at the top of that list. I agree that the contract we are under is concessionary. It is the 1113C contract with a little more pay. Way to long, IMHO, but as they say that is water under the bridge, and management will state a contract is a contract.
2012 is fast approaching and many are already out for blood. If LM is true to his word he is in his last term.
Hence, I rest my point. You guys took the bait so did we. The threat of an ugly merger unless you sign on this "deal" now. Just as we CAL pilots took the bait in 04-05... the threat of the company filing CH11 unless we sign this deal now (this was told to us by our union officials, who all now work in mgmt btw, not by the company). Right after we signed, mgmt suddenly had the money to fund 111 new aircraft orders, winglets for 737-300s, 500s, NGs, 757-200s, money for upgrading terminals, etc. Oh, and they even paid themselves $50 million in bonus' immediately after we signed. And those bonuses continue to climb every year, despite our losing money.

The point is, the price of a pilot is the price of a pilot. They'll have to pay whatever we tell them to becuase we tell them to. The money is there. It always is. But if we cower in fear and intimidation we can all continue this death spiral to the bottom.

Even Alaska airlines recently inducted a poor contract (not a slight against any pilot there, but y'all should've asked for more). Every pilot group these days seems too scared to stand up for their profession, yet is all too eager to stand up for their airline (The General is really good at this. DAL can do no wrong in his eyes)... which has all the money for everything but an increase in pilot compensation.

Ironaically, the airline we all love to hate (for their incrediblely successful fuel hedges), SWA was the only pilot group of late to stand up to mgmt and call them at their game. They voted down a sub-standard TA and didn't cower with fear.

Remember, this is not about whose airline is better or whose contract is better. This is about being pressured into accepting less than your worth because of some impending threat by mgmt and the union.
 
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