DAL & NWA JPWA Vote

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DAL & NWA JPWA Pro/Con

After thoughtful consideration ...

Sticking points:
* No progress on scope, despite an excellent opportunity to make progress while everyone was at the table and management needed scope relief (which they got).

• - The DC9's will be replaced by E175's and RJ's during the period of this agreement, these pilots will displace Delta pilots
• - Compass could have been easily stapled, giving them longevity now, bringing the Embraer jets to the Delta property and increasing the number and security of Delta pilots' jobs.
• - Alaska Airlines will feed the Seattle operation with their airplanes, not Delta jets, not Delta crews

* No meaningful furlough protection for those hired after 2001.
* No effective commuter policy. With the addition of our Northwest brothers, the majority of Delta pilots will be commuters. There are no seats in back and not enough seats up front. When the airplanes begin getting shifted around the system, we will need positive space for communting. The Company also has the need for us to get to work.

There is even more I like, although only three are listed, they are important items:

* Pay Parity to get our NWA brothers on board
* SLI framework agreement including the no-prejudice agreement.
* Equity

I have no confidence that if the JPWA is voted down that scope issues will be addressed.

Anyone have additional perspectives? I'm earnestly curious what Delta and Northwest pilots think.

 

[NuGuy]

After hours of reading and thoughtful consideration ...

Sticking points:
* No progress on scope, despite an excellent opportunity to make progress while everyone was at the table and management needed scope relief (which they got).

• - The DC9's will be replaced by E175's and RJ's during the period of this agreement, these pilots will displace Delta pilots
• - Compass could have been easily stapled, giving them longevity now, bringing the Embraer jets to the Delta property and increasing the number and security of Delta pilots' jobs.
• - Alaska Airlines will feed the Seattle operation with their airplanes, not Delta jets, not Delta crews

* No meaningful furlough protection for those hired after 2001.
* No effective commuter policy. With the addition of our Northwest brothers, the majority of Delta pilots will be commuters. There are no seats in back and not enough seats up front. When the airplanes begin getting shifted around the system, we will need positive space for communting. The Company also has the need for us to get to work.

There is even more I like, although only three are listed, they are important items:

* Pay Parity to get our NWA brothers on board
* SLI framework agreement including the no-prejudice agreement.
* Equity

I have no confidence that if the JPWA is voted down that scope issues will be addressed.

Anyone have additional perspectives? I'm earnestly curious what Delta and Northwest pilots think.

Heyas Fins,

Reasonable concerns.

Many NWA guys, myself included, are stung a bit by the scope issue, as well as loss of some VERY hard fought QoL items.

But in the end, the pros beat the cons.

We taking any odds here?

Nu

 

[filejw]

Pros beat the cons is good way to put it so I couldn't vote no based on my two issues. The company will want something down the road and we will negotiate. Thats the way its always worked don't see any reason it will change.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

I agree that the Pros of getting on one team far outweigh the cons of a four year deal and many of the other things.
Scope is something that we need to spend a ton of negotiating capital on.

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

I agree that the Pros of getting on one team far outweigh the cons of a four year deal and many of the other things.
Scope is something that we need to spend a ton of negotiating capital on.

Absolutely... unfortunately most of the mil guys don't seem to understand the how tremendously important it is. It pains me seeing the jumbo RJ's running around all the airports that both DAL and NWA have given up in recent years. 50 was where it should have ended....

I voted yes for the same reasons, also though scope is giving me a tick.

 

[Superpilot92]

Absolutely... unfortunately most of the mil guys don't seem to understand the how tremendously important it is. It pains me seeing the jumbo RJ's running around all the airports that both DAL and NWA have given up in recent years. 50 was where it should have ended.....

I see that also, why is that? Completely short-sighted IMHO. SCOPE is extremely important and needs to be captured asap.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

It is giving me more than a tick, and I have been basically told that Scope language does very little for the Delta pilot--this from people in our union.
As I say if you want to complain you must be part of the solution. So I guess I will need to get more involved.

 

[Superpilot92]

It is giving me more than a tick, and I have been basically told that Scope language does very little for the Delta pilot--this from people in our union.
As I say if you want to complain you must be part of the solution. So I guess I will need to get more involved.

They are VERY wrong.

 

[Jetsetter]

I am voting NO. I will never vote yes on any contract until or unless they fix our sh##ty scope. BTW I am fairly safe from getting furloughed.

 

[Occam's Razor]

Sticking points:
* No progress on scope, despite an excellent opportunity to make progress while everyone was at the table and management needed scope relief (which they got).

I think the elements that were retained form the core of the Scope that both ALPA teams felt were essential. I won't go into details, but the predictable "pressure points" in the future will give us another bite at this apple. I think we were unwilling to spend negotiating capital on items that the future DAL management will engage us about later.

[*]- The DC9's will be replaced by E175's and RJ's during the period of this agreement, these pilots will displace Delta pilots

Huh?

We KNOW there will be "DC-9" replacement aircraft selected soon. We also know it will be flown by mainline pilots. We know this because the joint contract requires it.

If the a/c chosen is one that is being operated by one of the Airlinks (rhymes with "bumpus"), under a common type...and mainline pilots MUST fly the larger variant...[insert sound of a fin slapping a forehead here]...

Compass could have been easily stapled, giving them longevity now, bringing the Embraer jets to the Delta property and increasing the number and security of Delta pilots' jobs.

Compass can still be easily stapled. (In a manner of speaking...they already are!) Maybe it'd be a good idea to take another chomp at that apple after we've digested the chunk we're chewing right now?

Alaska Airlines will feed the Seattle operation with their airplanes, not Delta jets, not Delta crews.

1. Status quo? Where's the fire?
2. "For now"

No meaningful furlough protection for those hired after 2001.

Define "meaningful".

The reason this is happening is for growth and stability. There was no meaningful furlough protection FOR ANYBODY if both carriers went forward as stand-alones.

It appears a few stand-alone Legacy airlines might be furloughing soon. It appears the newly-merged DAL will not.

No effective commuter policy. With the addition of our Northwest brothers, the majority of Delta pilots will be commuters. There are no seats in back and not enough seats up front. When the airplanes begin getting shifted around the system, we will need positive space for communting. The Company also has the need for us to get to work.

You think "hats" is a touchy subject? Let's talk about "commuter rights"...and steps that should be taken to ensure a better quality of life for those who choose to live away from their base.

We have a very successful "Call in Honest" program at NWA. That, combined with the ability of commuters to book jumpseats before non-commuting pilots, ought to work until this lash-up reaches something close to "stability" (base-wise).

O.R.
Yes Voter.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

I agree we need to get positive space commute from anywhere in the US. It should not be a conflict with duty time and we can write it in the JPWA to pacify management. It would cost very little as long as we could do it no sooner than five to seven days out and there had to be availability on the aircraft. It really is simple enough. That or put more mini bases around.

 

[NuGuy]

If the a/c chosen is one that is being operated by one of the Airlinks (rhymes with "bumpus")

For some reason, I just thought of "A Christmas Story"....weird.....

Nu

 

[Occam's Razor]

I agree we need to get positive space commute from anywhere in the US. It should not be a conflict with duty time and we can write it in the JPWA to pacify management. It would cost very little as long as we could do it no sooner than five to seven days out and there had to be availability on the aircraft. It really is simple enough. That or put more mini bases around.

Yeah...that'll solve any revenue problems!

Bump paying pax so you can live in East MommyTown.

*chortle*

 

[ACL65PILOT]

It would not be bumping revenue.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

It would be bumping families that are non-revving so that working folks have first dibbs.

 

[Occam's Razor]

See? There's something else I need to learn about Delta. At Delta, "Positive Space" means you go ahead of other non-revs.

At Northwest, it means...um...positive space.

 

[jonjuan]

Yeah...that'll solve any revenue problems!

Bump paying pax so you can live in East MommyTown.

*chortle*

Why not? The fractionals do it and it appears to be one of the better parts of their contracts.

 

[Noserider76]

Anyone have additional perspectives? I'm earnestly curious what Delta and Northwest pilots think.

We gave up the chance to open Section 6 next year with LOA 19. The JPWA gives us a 4 year+ deal with payraises that barely keep up with inflation must less recapturing anything lost in the blood bath leading up to BK. As you mentioned there is no real fix on scope and the chances of a DL west coast domestic operation look slim to none with the Alaska codeshare. Many look at this as our last chance to have any leverage with management. The combined company may be too big to have any credible strike threat. If we vote it down because it didn't meet our expectations for the next contract though, we're the A holes. No need for that though because NWA will almost certainly get their own LOA 19 while both sides work on a new JPWA.

I've heard people say we're lucky to be getting anything from the merger. I think that misses the point that if this passes we've basically signed our next contract here a little over a year early at one of the worst times for the aviation industry.

 

[Occam's Razor]

Why not? The fractionals do it and it appears to be one of the better parts of their contracts.

The fractionals bump paying pax from their own aircraft to accommodate commuting pilots?

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

Positive space at DL means positive space just like it does at NW. I don't know what the other guy was talking about.

He was probably talking about an S1 or so (like an F1 at NWA).

Another DL nicety about nonrevving.. there is no F or Y nonrev priority. On any level of pass, if there are first class seats open and youre the next NRSA on the list, then you get a first class seat.

 

[KCPilot]

SLI before JPWA!

 

[NuGuy]

SLI before JPWA!

Ummm, I think these guys tried it that way:

http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?t=115406

Sounds like a good plan for success to me!

Nu

 

[NuGuy]

The fractionals bump paying pax from their own aircraft to accommodate commuting pilots?

Heyas Occam,

I think ACL is just talking about something similar to our own Call In Honest.

Have 2 flights. If you aren't going to make the 2nd, call, and you get a positive space to work (if they need you).

Nu

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

Heyas Occam,

I think ACL is just talking about something similar to our own Call In Honest.

Have 2 flights. If you aren't going to make the 2nd, call, and you get a positive space to work (if they need you).

Nu

DL's CIH is exactly that.

 

[Voice Of Reason]

Heyas Occam,

I think ACL is just talking about something similar to our own Call In Honest.

Have 2 flights. If you aren't going to make the 2nd, call, and you get a positive space to work (if they need you).

Nu

He was replying to JonJuan who was trying to equate fracs tickets on airlines to airline guys bumping pax on their own airline (read: argument did not follow)

As far as the positive space thing....it is so convoluted from one airline to the next (at some it means the employee on company business is MUST RIDE (bumps pax), on others positive space on means you positively get a seat ONLY if one is available (after all paying pax), and if so, you'd go ahead of non revs. This is especially screwed up when the flight cancels, and then there are NO seats avail for say 3 days. These deviations from airline to airline are also applied at the whim of gate agents who don't even understand their own airline's policy, so will tell people the least desirable definition du jour of "positive space."

As far as the voting thing...Is there some reason I can't see that would prevent both groups from voting yes to immediately get the ball rolling and make some improvements, then go after a side letter or something for other issues? Seems like it makes sense in this environment to grab what you can, and you whatever leverages come from the success of the "new deal" to negotiate more. Why all or nothing if you can make what seems like good improvements now? Not getting it....

 

[filejw]

Yeah...that'll solve any revenue problems!

Bump paying pax so you can live in East MommyTown.

*chortle*

Most DAL type don't commute so its not a priority for them. I've commuted for 29 yrs and i still remember some place on the employment application it said are you willing to relocate ? I never wanted somebody else to pay for my decision not to live in a base. It was/is our choice to commute.

 

[cessnapilot]

Most DAL type don't commute so its not a priority for them. I've commuted for 29 yrs and i still remember some place on the employment application it said are you willing to relocate ? I never wanted somebody else to pay for my decision not to live in a base. It was/is our choice to commute.

that might have worked 30 years ago, but now people come from their 5th airline and somewhere along the way they put in roots. Once kids are in school and roots are in, its harder to move... not to mention the fact that airlines open and close bases with little financial impact (on the pilot side) since pilots can commute to the new base. Nobody is paying for your decision not to live in base... give me a break... this is the industry today.

 

[ugasucks]

Vote No!

 

[ACL65PILOT]

I would like to see commuting folks get the ability to talk open seats a few days out for their commute to work. IE it aint sold so the commuters can turn them in to positive space seats for their trip TO work. (We are going to have a lot of people moving around in the next few years). Not bumping revenue. Just putting you a head of my family trying to go on vacation. Personally I buy tickets with our 20% discount. It is a lot easier on the Mrs. to know that she is getting a seat on a flight next to the kiddo anyway.
We do have a call in honest program, just like yours. We also have had a few base closures that have been very difficult for people. DFW left a lot of people out there with families that could not move. One of the gate agents told me that there will still 4K commuters out of there. When the stuff hits the fan many people do not make it to work. Not so good.

 

[rtmcfi]

Most DAL type don't commute so its not a priority for them. I've commuted for 29 yrs and i still remember some place on the employment application it said are you willing to relocate ? I never wanted somebody else to pay for my decision not to live in a base. It was/is our choice to commute.

All commuters stop going to work tomorrow. See what happens to the airline. Make living in domecile a requirement with todays wages/qol. See what happens. Here is a clue..... chaos. Airlines depend on commuters to exist. As such, a positive space ticket to work is not an unreasonable request.