DAL MEC response rumor...

[DAL737FO]

(*&&^^%%%,

Or whatever your name is. Let's stick to facts here. Delta has the most liberal scope clause of any major airline in the US. DALPA has not made any jets for jobs deals. Delta pilots, if hired at ASA or now Comair, have no super seniority for pay or anything else. So what exactly are you mad about NOW. Give me a LOA number, side letter or anything factual. You my friend are just stirring a pot that really doesn't require a lot of stirring right now. We, meaning Delta Pilots, have allowed up to 49% of our flying to be done by someone other than Delta Pilots. Talk about your bait and switch. If I bought a Delta ticket and walk out to a Regional jet I would be pretty pissed off. You have now paid the full fare price for a smaller aircraft and a crew that, in the left seat, may or may not have bought their job during the pay for training period and in the right a seat a 400 hour wonder from the Delta connection academy. How is that for stereotyping?

Furloughed Delta Pilot
Don't want your seat, just want mine back

 

[Vortilon]

Looks like the gloves are off!

 

[blzr]

We, meaning Delta Pilots, have allowed up to 49% of our flying to be done by someone other than Delta Pilots.


WHY?

 

[~~~^~~~]

We, meaning Delta Pilots, have allowed up to 49% of our flying to be done by someone other than Delta Pilots.


WHY?

Because their MEC negotiated the deal - anything to preserve the pre-deregulation sized paychecks and ego in a post deregulation market. The same crowd is negotiating again. And again the putzs are lining up to support them. You would think they would learn....

 

[Oakum_Boy]

Talk about your bait and switch. If I bought a Delta ticket and walk out to a Regional jet I would be pretty pissed off. You have now paid the full fare price for a smaller aircraft and a crew that, in the left seat, may or may not have bought their job during the pay for training period and in the right a seat a 400 hour wonder from the Delta connection academy. How is that for stereotyping?

And somehow the connection pilots need to repent for this? Did we, in the wee hours, steal that flying from you? No, you gave it away. Additionally, our safety record is at least as good as yours, and you should pray that it stays so. Your future and mine depend on it...

 

[~~~^~~~]

(*&&^^%%%,

You have now paid the full fare price for a smaller aircraft and a crew that, in the left seat, may or may not have bought their job during the pay for training period and in the right a seat a 400 hour wonder from the Delta connection academy. How is that for stereotyping?

Furloughed Delta Pilot
Don't want your seat, just want mine back

Delta hired the 400 hour wonders currently going through training and paid for their training under the WMU scholarship program. ASA had nothing to do with their selection.

So again, back at you. I'm glad you like facts.

~~~^~~~

 

[Full of LUV]

Not Mainline vs Regional: High paid pilot vs Low paid pilot

Delta hired the 400 hour wonders currently going through training and paid for their training under the WMU scholarship program. ASA had nothing to do with their selection.

So again, back at you. I'm glad you like facts.

~~~^~~~

You are quite the piece of work, I have never understood someone who has so much disdain for their own company and or union.
Maybe you need a history refresher:
First of all, the RJ pilot profession has evolved from a collection of companies who flew turboprops for low wages as feeders or "regional" carriers. These jobs were considered entry level positions so it would have been insane for ALPA to insist that they become part of the mainline lest noone would be able to start at a major without interning at a "regional".
Eventually, customers complaints and increased comfort coupled with low budget RJ's made the airlines switch over to the RJ. Most did with the existing company/seniority lists that were already present during the transition.
Evolution of the RJ quickly enabled it to REPLACE mainline flying, ie DC-9's, 737's etc as RJ's moved from podunk towns into mainline domiciles.
ALPA and APA tried to get a limits installed to stem the tide, but the cat was out of the bag and at the time, most mainline outfits were growing as fast or faster than their regional units, so mainline pilots weren't feeling the squeeze and still felt that RJ feed was overall a good thing.
If you remember, a significant portion of APA's scope was to prohibit hub to hub flying and etc.
One would have thought that once the RJ units were on with ALPA, their could be some consensus on how to address the fact that the industry has devided itself between highly paid pilots and low paid pilots.
I have no doubt that the low paid pilots could fly the same planes that the high paid pilots flew and unless the industry is fixed, that is exactly where this is going.
Maybe the discussion needs to go to what is an airline pilot really worth. Hopefully that number would be somewhere above mesa ( I have no idea what they are actually paid) and DAL.
When all you read is articles and comments from the low paid pilots critical of the high paid pilots, it really makes you wonder if airline pilots don't have a PR problem with the public when such a large segment of the industry feels making 100K flying an airplane is "greedy".
Since Regional pilots could easily be mainline and vice versa, let's just change our lexicons from regional/ mainline pilot to low paid vs high paid pilot.
Ciao!

 

[DaveGriffin]

Dave,

In all seriousness, what would you have done if the roles were reversed. The Delta contract has been modified over 40 times giving relief to the company in this time of need. Have the Delta pilots gotten any credit for this? NO. Last I heard we have an amendment to our contract that cuts pay 23% and has other work rules modifications and the company turned it's back to us. We have the most liberal scope clause in the industry and we are villified as choking the company to death. In the companies latest proposal they wanted to amend the jumpseat and some disciplinary procedures. What the heck does this have to do with saving the company money?

Furloughed DAL pilot

FDP;

Let’s talk about what’s about to happen. That's the topic of this thread.

The delay tactics have worked better than the seniors ever thought possible. They are ecstatic over the DL’s new strategy for transforming to a long haul carrier. It’s the “perfect reorg” if you are one of the senior third who can’t yet retire. I wonder if one of the reasons management came up with this plan was because they knew they could sell it to the MEC?

The top third are now assured of at least a few more years of relatively good times, at least until the LCCs go transoceanic.

The middle third (the top third wannabes) will support the new plan because that is what the dreamers do, eagerly waiting for their time in the sun.

The bottom third (the SOLs) will be changing jobs, changing seniority lists or flying DCI RJs on a MEC approved J4J program.

In about 2-3 years the realization will hit that the model enjoyed for the past 20 years has changed.

 

[~~~^~~~]

You are quite the piece of work, I have never understood someone who has so much disdain for their own company and or union.
Maybe you need a history refresher:
First of all, the RJ pilot profession has evolved from a collection of companies who flew turboprops for low wages as feeders or "regional" carriers.

So did Delta. Delta also grew by buying turboprop operators like Northeast. They were on your seniority list.

Eventually, customers complaints and increased comfort coupled with low budget RJ's made the airlines switch over to the RJ.

Do you mean our BAE146's? They were configured for as many as 105 seats and quite a bit larger than the airplanes we are now restricted to operating.

One would have thought that once the RJ units were on with ALPA, their could be some consensus on how to address the fact that the industry has devided itself between highly paid pilots and low paid pilots.

Agreed - ALPA had an obligation to follow their Constitution and Bylaws and merge the acquired airlines. Instead your MEC subverted the legal process and management was pleased to go along. Your MEC is directly responsible for the alter ego DCI carriers. Like I said before, anything to preserve their pre-deregulation sized compensation.

But now, your MEC is dealing to undercut the "low paid pilots" to put lower paid pilots in the cockpit - just as Dave Griffin explains. A dollar is a dollar to management, so they may just go along with ALPA's plan.

So to recap:

1. A pilot hires in with a rapidly growing profitable airline operating aircraft up to 105 seats and limited to 120 seats.
2. That airline is bought by Delta.
3. Delta pilots decide not to merge the seniority lists and threaten to leave the union if ALPA follows its own rules for acquired airlines.
4. The acquired airlines try to approach Delta with ideas for their contracts and scope. ALPA ( not Delta ) stops the acquired airlines from negotiating with their employer. The subsidiaries may only negotiate with their Delta subordinates who walk into the room and say, "oh scope... that is a Delta issue, we can not negotiate with you."
4. Delta pilots then decide to reduce the size of the aircraft their subsidiaries operate, to 50 seats, with some 70 seat jets grandfathered in. There are a host of other limitations, but no real scope protections. DCI grows to a "portfolio" of alter ego air carriers.
5. Warnings of coming scope end runs and alter ego whipsaw are laughed at by mainline pilots and ALPA.
6. The industry has a downturn and the pilots who laughed hardest at the "low paid pilots" are now furloughed. The separate alter ego carriers continue hiring.
7. Seeing that the alter ego carriers are thriving, the mainline guys decide to go and just take the jobs away from the "low paid pilots." The only way to negotiate is to undercut the low paid pilots and offer the furloughees as "lower paid pilots." The attitude of the Delta pilots is "what is there to stop us?"
8. The low paid pilots, having a pretty good crystal ball provided by people who worked for 20 years as MEC Chairmen and promoting ALPA's "One Level of Safety," file a lawsuit in time to protect the changes is ALPA's conduct from 1996 to 2000. They believe a Judge will stop a union from unilaterally taking airplanes from 120 to 50 seats at an acquired airline, then replacing those pilots with "preferred pilots" at lower wages - after all the original "low paid pilots" were ALPA members too and had the same rights of representation to their employer.

The "industry" did not split the pilots, ALPA did at the direction of the Delta MEC. That decision led directly to the furlough of junior Delta pilots.

Dave Griffin is correct that some of the junior Delta guys will wake up and realize this is for real two, or three, years from now. Just remember the RJDC and I were writing about this scenario four years ago - it is all simple situational awareness.

~~~^~~~

 

[P38JLightning]

perspective

>>>You have now paid the full fare price for a smaller aircraft and a crew that, in the left seat, may or may not have bought their job during the pay for training period and in the right a seat a 400 hour wonder from the Delta connection academy. How is that for stereotyping?

Furloughed Delta Pilot
Don't want your seat, just want mine back


Not bad, although as someone mentioned before, these are Delta interns, whom Delta promised a MAINLINE job to someday (as soon as they meet bare minimum times and Delta hires again) Now I'm not sure if its Delta or Comair/ASA who "pays" for their 100 hours of IOE or all expenses paid trip back to Sanford to beef up their flight time if even that doesn't cut it before they are invited back to try again, but does it really matter?

And how about the quals of those Delta pilots doing the bulk of "Delta's" pacific route structure? You know, the REAL Delta pilots, d.b.a. Korean Air. Interesting they are picking up about the same about of 777's Delta has cancelled, and using them on Delta codeshare routes. But don't worry, I'm sure GG will throw you a bone eventually and give you a second out and back that direction.

Dave G,

Good points. There is no doubt the Delta "military model" retirement scheme just doesn't work in the real post deregulation world. Their asinine "touch it for 3 years and bail" ponzi scheme has left the bulk of the pilot group and company as a whole holding a bag of flaming dog doo as they exit stage rich.

But don't forget Connection carriers have their thirds too. Like the top 1/3 that won't feel the effects of hiring or furloughing, short of Ch 7 that is. But a staple+ merger, now that's worth licking one's chops over.

My point is ALPA mainline is just as guilty as ALPA connection, which is no better than the non union backstabbers at SkyWest or the non ALPA union Chautauqua pilots. We all squabble while Rome burns, neither willing to lift a finger to fix the situation, God forbid anyone spend any "negotiatiog capital" and meanwhile the mainline and connection side of things are on a downhill slide. We shall see.