DAL MEC response rumor...

[Heavy Set]

Where is it? It's Saturday.... Nice source!

Hey InclusiveScope,

You sounded pretty confident about the DALPA Saturday statement... Where is it? Has it been posted? Who's your source - are you "Deep Throat?" Another unfounded rumor...

 

[737 Pylt]

Let me guess, you believe everything your status reps. tell you because they are looking out for your best interests. You will learn...

Let me guess you believe everything the rjdc tells you because they are looking out for your best interest??
Make sure and mail them more checks! Dan Ford and his lawyer are laughing all the way to the bank!
BTW, it's now Monday morning, and your "so called" rumor hasn't come about!
737

 

[DaveGriffin]

And sometimes people are just plain p!ssed off that we still have a good contract and are well represented by our union.

DL_Infidel

Don’t you mean, “HAD a great contract”? What is so great about deciding between $1B giveback or Chap 11. Right now it looks like a sh*tty contract.

I'm sure if you were in the top 1/3 of the list you would be giving half of your pay check each month to the furlough fund. If not, what sacrifice would you make Dave to help the lower 1/3? Most of the furloughees at DL feel the "seniors" have not sold them out but if fact assisted them in their time of need...being furloughed myself for 7 months, I appreciate everything they did. Most are not "greedy b*stards".

As far as the rest of your post, it's tough to respond to fortune telling. I am curious, though, as to where your hatred of senior DL pilots stems from.



DL_Infidel

DL_I;

I expect them to do act aggressively immediately after the attacks of 9/11 to help drive a solution that would seek to get us out of the situation we find ourselves in today. That’s leadership.

But what did the MEC leadership do? They filed FM I grievance which said the attack of 9/11 was not the cause of the furloughs and focused everyone’s energy denying that al Qaeda had anything to do with the furloughs. Michael Moore must be the strategist for the MEC.

The best the greedy b*stards could come up with was a head-in-the-sand-let’s-wait-and-see-what-happens-and-maybe-it will-get-better strategy. What did the seniors have to loose? Nothing!! They had the best three years of their soon-to-be-retired careers. And guess what? It got much worse.

The only thing worse than being greedy is being stupid. Unfortunately they are both.

 

[DL_Infidel]

Don’t you mean, “HAD a great contract”? What is so great about deciding between $1B giveback or Chap 11. Right now it looks like a sh*tty contract.

No, still have C2K in place...unless last night our MEC signed a new TA, without membership ratification...or GG went to the judge. At this point, for me, giving back $1 billion or Ch11, I'll choose the latter. Any agreement that doesn't tighten scope, gets rid of the no furlough clause, or stops the recall is a NO vote for many of us.

DL_I;

I expect them to do act aggressively immediately after the attacks of 9/11 to help drive a solution that would seek to get us out of the situation we find ourselves in today. That’s leadership.

But what did the MEC leadership do? They filed FM I grievance which said the attack of 9/11 was not the cause of the furloughs and focused everyone’s energy denying that al Qaeda had anything to do with the furloughs. Michael Moore must be the strategist for the MEC.

The best the greedy b*stards could come up with was a head-in-the-sand-let’s-wait-and-see-what-happens-and-maybe-it will-get-better strategy. What did the seniors have to loose? Nothing!! They had the best three years of their soon-to-be-retired careers. And guess what? It got much worse. The only thing worse than being greedy is being stupid. Unfortunately they are both.

DALPA did offer sevaral forms of relief which the company accepted. It seems that to appease you, DALPA should have given $1 billion of our contract on 9/12, and really screwed the seniors out of retirement. To blame the woes of DL on the seniors and our contract is short sighted. Management has always had control of this vessle, and capitulating on our contract would not make a difference whether or not DL restructures through the courts.


DL_Infidel
True leadership isn't bending over at the first sign of trouble.

 

[DaveGriffin]

No, still have C2K in place...unless last night our MEC signed a new TA, without membership ratification...or GG went to the judge. At this point, for me, giving back $1 billion or Ch11, I'll choose the latter. Any agreement that doesn't tighten scope, gets rid of the no furlough clause, or stops the recall is a NO vote for many of us.

Your comment is so typical of the “max pay to the last day” mentality. C2K has been a “dead man walking” since 9/12, but the MEC leadership, controlled by the top third of the list (and the top third wannabes) has focused on keeping the spigot open as long as they can, regardless of the ultimate outcome.

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DALPA did offer sevaral forms of relief which the company accepted. It seems that to appease you, DALPA should have given $1 billion of our contract on 9/12, and really screwed the seniors out of retirement. To blame the woes of DL on the seniors and our contract is short sighted. Management has always had control of this vessle, and capitulating on our contract would not make a difference whether or not DL restructures through the courts.



DL_Infidel

True leadership isn't bending over at the first sign of trouble.

If the MEC had recognized the real problem, and chosen to focus on a looking for a real solution, rather than spending money on lawyers to claim that al Qaeda had nothing to do with the furloughs, they may have gotten lucky and made some real progress at finding a solution, and I’m not talking about a $1B giveback on 12 Sep. But instead they spent money on lawyers and focused the emotional energy of the MEC on the wrong issues. I’m d*mn glad that FM I was a loser. If Block had agreed with the MEC and put the furloughees back on the payroll in Nov 2001, Delta would have filed Chap 11 a year ago.

 

[DAL737FO]

Dave,

In all seriousness, what would you have done if the roles were reversed. The Delta contract has been modified over 40 times giving relief to the company in this time of need. Have the Delta pilots gotten any credit for this? NO. Last I heard we have an amendment to our contract that cuts pay 23% and has other work rules modifications and the company turned it's back to us. We have the most liberal scope clause in the industry and we are villified as choking the company to death. In the companies latest proposal they wanted to amend the jumpseat and some disciplinary procedures. What the heck does this have to do with saving the company money?

Furloughed DAL pilot

 

[DL_Infidel]

Your comment is so typical of the “max pay to the last day” mentality. C2K has been a “dead man walking” since 9/12, but the MEC leadership, controlled by the top third of the list (and the top third wannabes) has focused on keeping the spigot open as long as they can, regardless of the ultimate outcome.






If the MEC had recognized the real problem, and chosen to focus on a looking for a real solution, rather than spending money on lawyers to claim that al Qaeda had nothing to do with the furloughs, they may have gotten lucky and made some real progress at finding a solution, and I’m not talking about a $1B giveback on 12 Sep. But instead they spent money on lawyers and focused the emotional energy of the MEC on the wrong issues. I’m d*mn glad that FM I was a loser. If Block had agreed with the MEC and put the furloughees back on the payroll in Nov 2001, Delta would have filed Chap 11 a year ago.

Dave,

Do you think you can post 1 post without personal attacks? Wow, now there are top 1/3 wannabees...lol.

Many of your "facts" are skewed. You think you know the motivations and thinking processes of DALPA...and they are faulty guestimates. If FMI was such "a loser", then why are the furloughees returning? The process worked, even though there were some on both sides that didn't agree with the arbiter's decision.

Here is my mentality...let me be clear. It's not "full pay to the last day". I will vote in such a way as to protect our jobs and provide us with a ROI. Management's offer does not address these issues.

I don't understand why your anger isn't directed toward mismanagement. I guess we're an easy target and it's rare to find management types on this board. Did you know that DL has 48 VPs? Have they attempted to reduce head count and take paycuts? NO, DL's VP head count has increased since 9/11. SWA has 27 VPs. If GG really wants to mirror LCCs in all areas, DL needs to shed 1/2 of the VPs. Awesome, I found another reason to vote NO.


DL_Infidel

 

[On Your Six]

I can't figure out Dave - is he management, is he a flight attendant, is he a wannabe pilot? I just can't figure him out. Regardless, he is quite negative most of the time and the DAL pilot group tends to bare the brunt of his criticism...

Many of my DAL pilot friends are NOT "max pay to the last day." While I am sure there are a few pilots like that at the top, I am sure they are in the minority. The vast majority want job security in addition to a good wage - and good is relative... The industry changes are not difficult to understand - everyone can see the need to reduce costs so that a good margin can be maintained. That's clear.

However, what is not clear is how management will actually implement its SECRETIVE plans - some detail has been released lately but not much... Everyone is talking in generalities - even the airline analysts are unclear. Would you blindly accept what management has to offer without seeing a better plan of action? I doubt it.

 

[Full of LUV]

I’m d*mn glad that FM I was a loser. If Block had agreed with the MEC and put the furloughees back on the payroll in Nov 2001, Delta would have filed Chap 11 a year ago.

If FM 1 had won, based on the DALPA argument that 9/11 was a permission slip for the company to transfer thousands of jobs from DAL to it's CHEAPER subsidieries, then it would have forced the company to examine it's business model back in 2001/2 and place whatever jet was needed for which markets under the DAL umbrella with DAL employees, possibly even with contract concessions. Instead, we have seen the transfer of thousands of jobs literally to the cheaper help on the RJ's while the new hires joined on to sue the very union because their potential is limited by the modicum of scope actually in the contract. Comair/ASA/et al, you are the cheaper help and the company would have bought you 737's if they could legally operate them under your certificate.
What amazes me is that I guess the RJDC won't be pleased until the last DAL pilot is retired and/or furloughed, yet how would all those RJ operators compete on their own without the contracts to provide feed for DAL? The RJDC seems to take joy in the sorry situation DAL and DALPA find themselves, but I hope they have a good plan if DAL goes chapter 11 and or 7.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Comair/ASA/et al, you are the cheaper help

The RJDC seems to take joy in the sorry situation DAL and DALPA find themselves, but I hope they have a good plan if DAL goes chapter 11 and or 7.

ALPA's jets for jobs proposals ( including the one at Delta according to some leaks ) have mainline pilots flying RJ's for first and second year pay at the subsidiaries pay rates. That would be at least 10% less than I make. My understanding is that ALPA has proposed Delta pilots start at ASA's second year rates. That is significantly less than I make. So, who are you calling cheap?

At the same time ASA President, Mr. Skip Barnette, has been making rounds of the ops classes and was asked about jets for jobs on the ASA property. He said that Delta wants scope relief and mainline pilots are going to need jobs. A dollar is a dollar and Delta does not care who flies the airplanes - that is ALPA's dealings. Further he told a class of ASA pilots that before we decide we are against this deal we should "see the numbers." I would like to "see the numbers" because the ASA MEC is still denying that any negotiations are even taking place. So officially, ALPA is negotiating my seniority list while locking my representatives out of the room ( thank God we filed a lawsuit - ALPA National is entirely unwilling to control their renegade MEC's )

And no, as a RJDC supporter I know we are in the same boat together. It is the Delta MEC who cut 55 seats out of my boat and who is now threatening to hijack my seniority list. But fortunately I know I can find a better job than ASA, I bet you can't say the same about your Delta gig.

I'm very glad we got that lawsuit filed in time to use it as a tool to repel your MEC's latest attack on flying they negotiated away years ago.... Why aren't you mad at your MEC, they are the ones who have made a royal mess of your scope, your company, and your union?

~~~^~~~

 

[DAL737FO]

(*&&^^%%%,

Or whatever your name is. Let's stick to facts here. Delta has the most liberal scope clause of any major airline in the US. DALPA has not made any jets for jobs deals. Delta pilots, if hired at ASA or now Comair, have no super seniority for pay or anything else. So what exactly are you mad about NOW. Give me a LOA number, side letter or anything factual. You my friend are just stirring a pot that really doesn't require a lot of stirring right now. We, meaning Delta Pilots, have allowed up to 49% of our flying to be done by someone other than Delta Pilots. Talk about your bait and switch. If I bought a Delta ticket and walk out to a Regional jet I would be pretty pissed off. You have now paid the full fare price for a smaller aircraft and a crew that, in the left seat, may or may not have bought their job during the pay for training period and in the right a seat a 400 hour wonder from the Delta connection academy. How is that for stereotyping?

Furloughed Delta Pilot
Don't want your seat, just want mine back

 

[Vortilon]

Looks like the gloves are off!

 

[blzr]

We, meaning Delta Pilots, have allowed up to 49% of our flying to be done by someone other than Delta Pilots.


WHY?

 

[~~~^~~~]

We, meaning Delta Pilots, have allowed up to 49% of our flying to be done by someone other than Delta Pilots.


WHY?

Because their MEC negotiated the deal - anything to preserve the pre-deregulation sized paychecks and ego in a post deregulation market. The same crowd is negotiating again. And again the putzs are lining up to support them. You would think they would learn....

 

[Oakum_Boy]

Talk about your bait and switch. If I bought a Delta ticket and walk out to a Regional jet I would be pretty pissed off. You have now paid the full fare price for a smaller aircraft and a crew that, in the left seat, may or may not have bought their job during the pay for training period and in the right a seat a 400 hour wonder from the Delta connection academy. How is that for stereotyping?

And somehow the connection pilots need to repent for this? Did we, in the wee hours, steal that flying from you? No, you gave it away. Additionally, our safety record is at least as good as yours, and you should pray that it stays so. Your future and mine depend on it...

 

[~~~^~~~]

(*&&^^%%%,

You have now paid the full fare price for a smaller aircraft and a crew that, in the left seat, may or may not have bought their job during the pay for training period and in the right a seat a 400 hour wonder from the Delta connection academy. How is that for stereotyping?

Furloughed Delta Pilot
Don't want your seat, just want mine back

Delta hired the 400 hour wonders currently going through training and paid for their training under the WMU scholarship program. ASA had nothing to do with their selection.

So again, back at you. I'm glad you like facts.

~~~^~~~

 

[Full of LUV]

Not Mainline vs Regional: High paid pilot vs Low paid pilot

Delta hired the 400 hour wonders currently going through training and paid for their training under the WMU scholarship program. ASA had nothing to do with their selection.

So again, back at you. I'm glad you like facts.

~~~^~~~

You are quite the piece of work, I have never understood someone who has so much disdain for their own company and or union.
Maybe you need a history refresher:
First of all, the RJ pilot profession has evolved from a collection of companies who flew turboprops for low wages as feeders or "regional" carriers. These jobs were considered entry level positions so it would have been insane for ALPA to insist that they become part of the mainline lest noone would be able to start at a major without interning at a "regional".
Eventually, customers complaints and increased comfort coupled with low budget RJ's made the airlines switch over to the RJ. Most did with the existing company/seniority lists that were already present during the transition.
Evolution of the RJ quickly enabled it to REPLACE mainline flying, ie DC-9's, 737's etc as RJ's moved from podunk towns into mainline domiciles.
ALPA and APA tried to get a limits installed to stem the tide, but the cat was out of the bag and at the time, most mainline outfits were growing as fast or faster than their regional units, so mainline pilots weren't feeling the squeeze and still felt that RJ feed was overall a good thing.
If you remember, a significant portion of APA's scope was to prohibit hub to hub flying and etc.
One would have thought that once the RJ units were on with ALPA, their could be some consensus on how to address the fact that the industry has devided itself between highly paid pilots and low paid pilots.
I have no doubt that the low paid pilots could fly the same planes that the high paid pilots flew and unless the industry is fixed, that is exactly where this is going.
Maybe the discussion needs to go to what is an airline pilot really worth. Hopefully that number would be somewhere above mesa ( I have no idea what they are actually paid) and DAL.
When all you read is articles and comments from the low paid pilots critical of the high paid pilots, it really makes you wonder if airline pilots don't have a PR problem with the public when such a large segment of the industry feels making 100K flying an airplane is "greedy".
Since Regional pilots could easily be mainline and vice versa, let's just change our lexicons from regional/ mainline pilot to low paid vs high paid pilot.
Ciao!

 

[DaveGriffin]

Dave,

In all seriousness, what would you have done if the roles were reversed. The Delta contract has been modified over 40 times giving relief to the company in this time of need. Have the Delta pilots gotten any credit for this? NO. Last I heard we have an amendment to our contract that cuts pay 23% and has other work rules modifications and the company turned it's back to us. We have the most liberal scope clause in the industry and we are villified as choking the company to death. In the companies latest proposal they wanted to amend the jumpseat and some disciplinary procedures. What the heck does this have to do with saving the company money?

Furloughed DAL pilot

FDP;

Let’s talk about what’s about to happen. That's the topic of this thread.

The delay tactics have worked better than the seniors ever thought possible. They are ecstatic over the DL’s new strategy for transforming to a long haul carrier. It’s the “perfect reorg” if you are one of the senior third who can’t yet retire. I wonder if one of the reasons management came up with this plan was because they knew they could sell it to the MEC?

The top third are now assured of at least a few more years of relatively good times, at least until the LCCs go transoceanic.

The middle third (the top third wannabes) will support the new plan because that is what the dreamers do, eagerly waiting for their time in the sun.

The bottom third (the SOLs) will be changing jobs, changing seniority lists or flying DCI RJs on a MEC approved J4J program.

In about 2-3 years the realization will hit that the model enjoyed for the past 20 years has changed.

 

[~~~^~~~]

You are quite the piece of work, I have never understood someone who has so much disdain for their own company and or union.
Maybe you need a history refresher:
First of all, the RJ pilot profession has evolved from a collection of companies who flew turboprops for low wages as feeders or "regional" carriers.

So did Delta. Delta also grew by buying turboprop operators like Northeast. They were on your seniority list.

Eventually, customers complaints and increased comfort coupled with low budget RJ's made the airlines switch over to the RJ.

Do you mean our BAE146's? They were configured for as many as 105 seats and quite a bit larger than the airplanes we are now restricted to operating.

One would have thought that once the RJ units were on with ALPA, their could be some consensus on how to address the fact that the industry has devided itself between highly paid pilots and low paid pilots.

Agreed - ALPA had an obligation to follow their Constitution and Bylaws and merge the acquired airlines. Instead your MEC subverted the legal process and management was pleased to go along. Your MEC is directly responsible for the alter ego DCI carriers. Like I said before, anything to preserve their pre-deregulation sized compensation.

But now, your MEC is dealing to undercut the "low paid pilots" to put lower paid pilots in the cockpit - just as Dave Griffin explains. A dollar is a dollar to management, so they may just go along with ALPA's plan.

So to recap:

1. A pilot hires in with a rapidly growing profitable airline operating aircraft up to 105 seats and limited to 120 seats.
2. That airline is bought by Delta.
3. Delta pilots decide not to merge the seniority lists and threaten to leave the union if ALPA follows its own rules for acquired airlines.
4. The acquired airlines try to approach Delta with ideas for their contracts and scope. ALPA ( not Delta ) stops the acquired airlines from negotiating with their employer. The subsidiaries may only negotiate with their Delta subordinates who walk into the room and say, "oh scope... that is a Delta issue, we can not negotiate with you."
4. Delta pilots then decide to reduce the size of the aircraft their subsidiaries operate, to 50 seats, with some 70 seat jets grandfathered in. There are a host of other limitations, but no real scope protections. DCI grows to a "portfolio" of alter ego air carriers.
5. Warnings of coming scope end runs and alter ego whipsaw are laughed at by mainline pilots and ALPA.
6. The industry has a downturn and the pilots who laughed hardest at the "low paid pilots" are now furloughed. The separate alter ego carriers continue hiring.
7. Seeing that the alter ego carriers are thriving, the mainline guys decide to go and just take the jobs away from the "low paid pilots." The only way to negotiate is to undercut the low paid pilots and offer the furloughees as "lower paid pilots." The attitude of the Delta pilots is "what is there to stop us?"
8. The low paid pilots, having a pretty good crystal ball provided by people who worked for 20 years as MEC Chairmen and promoting ALPA's "One Level of Safety," file a lawsuit in time to protect the changes is ALPA's conduct from 1996 to 2000. They believe a Judge will stop a union from unilaterally taking airplanes from 120 to 50 seats at an acquired airline, then replacing those pilots with "preferred pilots" at lower wages - after all the original "low paid pilots" were ALPA members too and had the same rights of representation to their employer.

The "industry" did not split the pilots, ALPA did at the direction of the Delta MEC. That decision led directly to the furlough of junior Delta pilots.

Dave Griffin is correct that some of the junior Delta guys will wake up and realize this is for real two, or three, years from now. Just remember the RJDC and I were writing about this scenario four years ago - it is all simple situational awareness.

~~~^~~~

 

[P38JLightning]

perspective

>>>You have now paid the full fare price for a smaller aircraft and a crew that, in the left seat, may or may not have bought their job during the pay for training period and in the right a seat a 400 hour wonder from the Delta connection academy. How is that for stereotyping?

Furloughed Delta Pilot
Don't want your seat, just want mine back


Not bad, although as someone mentioned before, these are Delta interns, whom Delta promised a MAINLINE job to someday (as soon as they meet bare minimum times and Delta hires again) Now I'm not sure if its Delta or Comair/ASA who "pays" for their 100 hours of IOE or all expenses paid trip back to Sanford to beef up their flight time if even that doesn't cut it before they are invited back to try again, but does it really matter?

And how about the quals of those Delta pilots doing the bulk of "Delta's" pacific route structure? You know, the REAL Delta pilots, d.b.a. Korean Air. Interesting they are picking up about the same about of 777's Delta has cancelled, and using them on Delta codeshare routes. But don't worry, I'm sure GG will throw you a bone eventually and give you a second out and back that direction.

Dave G,

Good points. There is no doubt the Delta "military model" retirement scheme just doesn't work in the real post deregulation world. Their asinine "touch it for 3 years and bail" ponzi scheme has left the bulk of the pilot group and company as a whole holding a bag of flaming dog doo as they exit stage rich.

But don't forget Connection carriers have their thirds too. Like the top 1/3 that won't feel the effects of hiring or furloughing, short of Ch 7 that is. But a staple+ merger, now that's worth licking one's chops over.

My point is ALPA mainline is just as guilty as ALPA connection, which is no better than the non union backstabbers at SkyWest or the non ALPA union Chautauqua pilots. We all squabble while Rome burns, neither willing to lift a finger to fix the situation, God forbid anyone spend any "negotiatiog capital" and meanwhile the mainline and connection side of things are on a downhill slide. We shall see.