DAL & CAL... In a perfect World

[cybourg10]

You will probably be on reserve for awhile at both. Both 757 FOs at CAL in my crashpad can't wait to get out once DAL/SWA/UPS/FDX start hiring. CAL reserve rules are worse than ours at Express. If you don't live in a CAL base (IAH, EWR, CLE, GUM) do not go to CAL, you will be misserable commuting to reserve at CAL vs at DAL where you will be on 12 hr call out and working under better work rules. Delta has always had a better contract than CAL, why would this change now?

 

[Flyer1015]

Ask me in 50 years if I made the right decision..........

 

[Furloughed80]

Delta has always had a better contract than CAL, why would this change now?

Because we are in the process of negotiating a new contract.

 

[cybourg10]

Because we are in the process of negotiating a new contract.

We are all very aware of it. You are so far behind DAL that it will take 2 or 3 contract cycles (minimum) and BLLIONS in profit during that time for you to catch up. I know you finally have the right people in the union this time (I'm a big fan of JP) but you are so far behind you will not catch up anytime soon. I saw your union's "what we want" pdf presentation and it isn't even as good as Delta and that is your opening shot. You think you will negotiate DAL plus X% this time around? Wow. How about negotiating a reserve system like DALPA so pilots don't have to sit in a crashpad 19 days a month?

 

[densoo]

We are all very aware of it. You are so far behind DAL that it will take 2 or 3 contract cycles (minimum) and BLLIONS in profit during that time for you to catch up. I know you finally have the right people in the union this time (I'm a big fan of JP) but you are so far behind you will not catch up anytime soon. I saw your union's "what we want" pdf presentation and it isn't even as good as Delta and that is your opening shot. You think you will negotiate DAL plus X% this time around? Wow. How about negotiating a reserve system like DALPA so pilots don't have to sit in a crashpad 19 days a month?

Pitch perfect.

According to the CEO's latest interview, the new set point is $500M profit per year. Anything less than that means concessions will be required (and given, based on history). The only way CAL will see a contract like DAL is if DAL declares bankruptcy two or three times to bring them down to CAL's level.

CAL is a different airline. Execs get major airline pay, pilots get regional work rules, and pilot pay is somewhere between regional and major. But the overall compensation could by no stretch be compared to a major.

CEO's latest statement: "there is no money to pay you."

Read it, let it sink in, and prepare for "concessions or bankruptcy" speech around about 12 December.

 

[cybourg10]

Pitch perfect.

According to the CEO's latest interview, the new set point is $500M profit per year. Anything less than that means concessions will be required (and given, based on history). The only way CAL will see a contract like DAL is if DAL declares bankruptcy two or three times to bring them down to CAL's level.

CAL is a different airline. Execs get major airline pay, pilots get regional work rules, and pilot pay is somewhere between regional and major. But the overall compensation could by no stretch be compared to a major.

CEO's latest statement: "there is no money to pay you."

Read it, let it sink in, and prepare for "concessions or bankruptcy" speech around about 12 December.

Any coincidence that the new set point is now $500 million a year in profit after the CALPA's opening proposal was estimated at an added $500 million a year in pilot costs?

Haha so now the company says they need to make $1 billion a year in profit to still pay CAL pilots less than Delta, SWA, FDX, UPS, AA, and I believe UAL as well............wow. I hope you guys are doing everything you can to buy off the NMB right now because they are your only shot.

 

[General Lee]

Pitch perfect.

According to the CEO's latest interview, the new set point is $500M profit per year. Anything less than that means concessions will be required (and given, based on history). The only way CAL will see a contract like DAL is if DAL declares bankruptcy two or three times to bring them down to CAL's level.

CAL is a different airline. Execs get major airline pay, pilots get regional work rules, and pilot pay is somewhere between regional and major. But the overall compensation could by no stretch be compared to a major.

CEO's latest statement: "there is no money to pay you."

Read it, let it sink in, and prepare for "concessions or bankruptcy" speech around about 12 December.

That is what RA supposedly told a group of checkairmen too. He supposedly said "We will be paying down a lot of debt in the next few years, and that means no extra money for the pilots."

Well RA, DL pilots are debtors too. The pension was given up, along with a lot of pay. I would say "time to charge more for tickets."


Bye Bye----General Lee

 

[thor2j]

Boy, you people really have no clue how negotiations work. This happens everywhere every contract. CEOs always say the same things.

DAL is a good place to be, nothing compared to what it was in terms of pay and QOL. How many forget that Delta was DAYS away from liquidation not very long ago. It can happen to anybody. Just flip the coin.

 

[densoo]

That is what RA supposedly told a group of checkairmen too. He supposedly said "We will be paying down a lot of debt in the next few years, and that means no extra money for the pilots."

Well RA, DL pilots are debtors too. The pension was given up, along with a lot of pay. I would say "time to charge more for tickets."


Bye Bye----General Lee

When you're watching the ballgame in the owner's suite, a step down to a corporate suite is acceptable. DAL.

When in you're watching the game from the far upper baseline deck, the next place is in the parking lot. CAL.

There isn't much lower they can go. FAR work rules, lowest compensation, no profit share; and yet, open time pickup, vacation waive, contractual duty day waive, continues unabated giddyup giddyup.

It all shows the pilots feel there is indeed more to give because they're giving it now and the company sees it every day when they look at the metrics.

All the company has to do now is simply formalize this giving in a new contract.

 

[thor2j]

When you're watching the ballgame in the owner's suite, a step down to a corporate suite is acceptable. DAL.

When in you're watching the game from the far upper baseline deck, the next place is in the parking lot. CAL.

There isn't much lower they can go. FAR work rules, lowest compensation, no profit share; and yet, open time pickup, vacation waive, contractual duty day waive, continues unabated giddyup giddyup.

It all shows the pilots feel there is indeed more to give because they're giving it now and the company sees it every day when they look at the metrics.

All the company has to do now is simply formalize this giving in a new contract.

Another whiner who does nothing about it. Please quit!!!!!

 

[whymeworry?]

At this stage there isn't any comparison, DAL is better hands down. From their corporate policies, to how they treat pilots with respect, to the pilot advocates they have in training and the CPO, no contract at CAL will get us up the the DAL level. It will take a shift in mgmt philosophy. But at this stage neither carrier is hiring so the information isn't relevant for you right now. By the time the hiring starts, both carriers could be completely different. At that time you would need to seriously review where you will be at in the hiring wave and how that will play out with respect to retirements, etc.

As far as why CAL's contract sucks. At the time, our union was run by the most incompetent, maliciously maligned pilots in union history. THAT is how we ended up with this pathetic contract. They were investigated by the FBI, DOJ, and DOL if that explains the level of greed. All those guys are gone (the head of our MEC Negotiating Committee joined mgmt... what does that tell you about the corrpution?) and we're firmly positioned for the battle ahead.

We will get a better contract. And it will far exceed anything DAL has to offer at the moment if we don't give up an inch of our "final offer" opener.

Whatever the CEO says in the press has zero bearing on whether we get the contact we deserve. Would you expect an American CEO to say anything else than what Smisek is claiming? Besides, that article was complete BS. He doesn't have a care in the world about the plight of any employee at CAL. The whole "Dignity and Respect" company mantra is a joke. Thanks to the company's petty antics (mostly coming from the various CPOs), we are now more unified than we've ever been in our airline's history. Once the NMB releases us (this will be sooner than y'all think), the the exec mgmt team won't have much choice. They can either tear down everything they've worked hard to build by forcing a strike/ job action, or they can face the music that the loan is due... NOW. But they're not going to give it away. We have to fight. And we will.

 

[AAflyer]

Delta!



AA

 

[BID]

cybourg10, you are saying that our current contract proposal is sub par to Delta's current contract?? Hope not! I am not all too familiar with Delta's contract.

It's the pension you guys! CAL gave up everything to save the pension.

I am curious, what kind of retirement is at Delta? Do you guys still have a pension? At CAL, lump sum is still going out, well for the time being. Our pension is frozen and will probably disappear.

So Express jet reserve rules are better than CAL, yes that is a fact! But what about your retirement? I have no doubt our reserve rules will improve, it will be better than yours or worse case just as good. Can you say the same about your retirement?

I am certainly not an aviation expert and I agree with just about everything that has been written here. However, I don't think CAL is as bad as many here make it out to be. Granted, I am not on reserve thank GOD! On a side note, I will never ever vote for any scope relief. I will work under this POS contract until I retire before I vote for any scope relief.

I work with some awesome pilots and crew members. I also fly some really great airplanes, to some great destinations. I am not saying CAL is better than Delta, because it is not. But to be perfectly honest, I am happy at this time to be at CAL. I truly believe things will change here. New contract and LAX base will certainly help!!

 

[GogglesPisano]

CAL's scope clause beats DAL's any day of the week and twice on Sundays. No doubt about that.

 

[cybourg10]

cybourg10, you are saying that our current contract proposal is sub par to Delta's current contract?? Hope not! I am not all too familiar with Delta's contract.

It's the pension you guys! CAL gave up everything to save the pension.

I am curious, what kind of retirement is at Delta? Do you guys still have a pension? At CAL, lump sum is still going out, well for the time being. Our pension is frozen and will probably disappear.

So Express jet reserve rules are better than CAL, yes that is a fact! But what about your retirement? I have no doubt our reserve rules will improve, it will be better than yours or worse case just as good. Can you say the same about your retirement?

I am certainly not an aviation expert and I agree with just about everything that has been written here. However, I don't think CAL is as bad as many here make it out to be. Granted, I am not on reserve thank GOD! On a side note, I will never ever vote for any scope relief. I will work under this POS contract until I retire before I vote for any scope relief.

I work with some awesome pilots and crew members. I also fly some really great airplanes, to some great destinations. I am not saying CAL is better than Delta, because it is not. But to be perfectly honest, I am happy at this time to be at CAL. I truly believe things will change here. New contract and LAX base will certainly help!!

BID I'm glad your happy at CAL (commuting to reserve is hell for your coworkers), I hope to be your FO there someday but things need to change. Yes you guys have the best scope in the industry, keep it that way and improve it (Nothing over 30 seat flown by regionals?).

Retirement-I get 4% match plus another 2.5% defined contribution at XJT and that is at year 4. At 10 years it is 6% match and 5% DC (maxes out at 6% at 20 yrs). Our retirement is not as good as CAL's and never will be, most guys won't retire here. I'm glad you still have your pension but I never want to have a pension honestly, I don't trust it will be there when I need it.

The proposal has decent pay rates but the work rules, although an improvement, are still very much lacking DAL or AA or SWA. So yes your proposal is not up to par with other legacies. Ask your rep for a copy of the proposal so you can see for yourself. CAL has great crews and hopefully you guys can get what you deserve.