DAL & CAL... In a perfect World

[whymeworry?]

At this stage there isn't any comparison, DAL is better hands down. From their corporate policies, to how they treat pilots with respect, to the pilot advocates they have in training and the CPO, no contract at CAL will get us up the the DAL level. It will take a shift in mgmt philosophy. But at this stage neither carrier is hiring so the information isn't relevant for you right now. By the time the hiring starts, both carriers could be completely different. At that time you would need to seriously review where you will be at in the hiring wave and how that will play out with respect to retirements, etc.

As far as why CAL's contract sucks. At the time, our union was run by the most incompetent, maliciously maligned pilots in union history. THAT is how we ended up with this pathetic contract. They were investigated by the FBI, DOJ, and DOL if that explains the level of greed. All those guys are gone (the head of our MEC Negotiating Committee joined mgmt... what does that tell you about the corrpution?) and we're firmly positioned for the battle ahead.

We will get a better contract. And it will far exceed anything DAL has to offer at the moment if we don't give up an inch of our "final offer" opener.

Whatever the CEO says in the press has zero bearing on whether we get the contact we deserve. Would you expect an American CEO to say anything else than what Smisek is claiming? Besides, that article was complete BS. He doesn't have a care in the world about the plight of any employee at CAL. The whole "Dignity and Respect" company mantra is a joke. Thanks to the company's petty antics (mostly coming from the various CPOs), we are now more unified than we've ever been in our airline's history. Once the NMB releases us (this will be sooner than y'all think), the the exec mgmt team won't have much choice. They can either tear down everything they've worked hard to build by forcing a strike/ job action, or they can face the music that the loan is due... NOW. But they're not going to give it away. We have to fight. And we will.

 

[AAflyer]

Delta!



AA

 

[BID]

cybourg10, you are saying that our current contract proposal is sub par to Delta's current contract?? Hope not! I am not all too familiar with Delta's contract.

It's the pension you guys! CAL gave up everything to save the pension.

I am curious, what kind of retirement is at Delta? Do you guys still have a pension? At CAL, lump sum is still going out, well for the time being. Our pension is frozen and will probably disappear.

So Express jet reserve rules are better than CAL, yes that is a fact! But what about your retirement? I have no doubt our reserve rules will improve, it will be better than yours or worse case just as good. Can you say the same about your retirement?

I am certainly not an aviation expert and I agree with just about everything that has been written here. However, I don't think CAL is as bad as many here make it out to be. Granted, I am not on reserve thank GOD! On a side note, I will never ever vote for any scope relief. I will work under this POS contract until I retire before I vote for any scope relief.

I work with some awesome pilots and crew members. I also fly some really great airplanes, to some great destinations. I am not saying CAL is better than Delta, because it is not. But to be perfectly honest, I am happy at this time to be at CAL. I truly believe things will change here. New contract and LAX base will certainly help!!

 

[GogglesPisano]

CAL's scope clause beats DAL's any day of the week and twice on Sundays. No doubt about that.

 

[cybourg10]

cybourg10, you are saying that our current contract proposal is sub par to Delta's current contract?? Hope not! I am not all too familiar with Delta's contract.

It's the pension you guys! CAL gave up everything to save the pension.

I am curious, what kind of retirement is at Delta? Do you guys still have a pension? At CAL, lump sum is still going out, well for the time being. Our pension is frozen and will probably disappear.

So Express jet reserve rules are better than CAL, yes that is a fact! But what about your retirement? I have no doubt our reserve rules will improve, it will be better than yours or worse case just as good. Can you say the same about your retirement?

I am certainly not an aviation expert and I agree with just about everything that has been written here. However, I don't think CAL is as bad as many here make it out to be. Granted, I am not on reserve thank GOD! On a side note, I will never ever vote for any scope relief. I will work under this POS contract until I retire before I vote for any scope relief.

I work with some awesome pilots and crew members. I also fly some really great airplanes, to some great destinations. I am not saying CAL is better than Delta, because it is not. But to be perfectly honest, I am happy at this time to be at CAL. I truly believe things will change here. New contract and LAX base will certainly help!!

BID I'm glad your happy at CAL (commuting to reserve is hell for your coworkers), I hope to be your FO there someday but things need to change. Yes you guys have the best scope in the industry, keep it that way and improve it (Nothing over 30 seat flown by regionals?).

Retirement-I get 4% match plus another 2.5% defined contribution at XJT and that is at year 4. At 10 years it is 6% match and 5% DC (maxes out at 6% at 20 yrs). Our retirement is not as good as CAL's and never will be, most guys won't retire here. I'm glad you still have your pension but I never want to have a pension honestly, I don't trust it will be there when I need it.

The proposal has decent pay rates but the work rules, although an improvement, are still very much lacking DAL or AA or SWA. So yes your proposal is not up to par with other legacies. Ask your rep for a copy of the proposal so you can see for yourself. CAL has great crews and hopefully you guys can get what you deserve.

 

[densoo]

It's the pension you guys! CAL gave up everything to save the pension...... At CAL, lump sum is still going out, well for the time being. Our pension is frozen and will probably disappear.

Whose pension? Bottom third got zero, middle third got next to that.

 

[hockeypilot44]

Whose pension? Bottom third got zero, middle third got next to that.

The scabs are taken care of though. It's our own fault. They are treated a lot better than they deserve to be treated.

 

[BID]

Whose pension? Bottom third got zero, middle third got next to that.

I said it was frozen.

 

[densoo]

I said it was frozen.

I got a little confused on that part of your post. You said it was frozen and will probably disappear. Anything could happen in the next round.

 

[Furloughed80]

The proposal has decent pay rates but the work rules, although an improvement, are still very much lacking DAL or AA or SWA

After reading our current proposal I would have to say that this statement is completely false. Please post what work rules in place at AA and DAL far exceed CAL's proposal.

 

[BID]

You guys are going to laugh, but today the company offered Delta's contract! Ha too funny oh yeah plus a dollar to the pay rates, and no ALPA board member. I will vote no, I do not want Delta's scope.

Once again, this came out today.

 

[cybourg10]

After reading our current proposal I would have to say that this statement is completely false. Please post what work rules in place at AA and DAL far exceed CAL's proposal.

Hopefully some Delta can chime in on this but the ones I remember were:

-Long Call at Delta
-Greenslips
-IRO First Class (did this change for you guys?)
-PBS parameters (better scheduling rules)

Pay rates were about the same but it seemed a DAL guy would have better work rules and hence higher overall pay. I talked about it with some crash pad buddies, one of their old man was a ATL75/6 CA so he knew the DAL contract pretty well too. It was his opinion that the new proposal was well short of DALPA's. Maybe you can provide the link to the proposal, I haven't read it in months.

 

[BID]

if Delta's contract is so great, then why is it that I do not want it? My current pay rate would be about the same or less. Not including the international override.

Scope is the big reason. The grass is always greener and now our management is giving us the opportunity to lay on that grass. Guess what, I do not want it! I want our own contract with scope intact.

 

[cybourg10]

if Delta's contract is so great, then why is it that I do not want it? My current pay rate would be about the same or less. Not including the international override.

Scope is the big reason. The grass is always greener and now our management is giving us the opportunity to lay on that grass. Guess what, I do not want it! I want our own contract with scope intact.

I understand. I wish there were more people like you that would rather have scope in tact than slightly higher pay.

 

[Superpilot92]

Our Contract here at DAL is a modified post Bankruptcy contract and not a new contract. They gave us some goodies to push the merger along. You guys at CAL should laugh at that proposal from MGMT because their offering you a Bankruptcy contract plus $1. Dont fall for it! Its nothing close to what yall proposed.

I'm with you guys, FUPM!! :beer:

NEVER SELL SCOPE! With out it your job can be outsourced and thus your pay rates are worthless.

 

[BID]

that is a good point. Our management has clearly called it a post bankruptcy legacy contract.

CAL management has clearly underestimated this pilot group. I have seen them try to bargain with our furloughed pilots, try to extend the current POS contract and now offer this?

It's ok. I do not take it on a personal level. Our joke of a management wants the best numbers they can get. It's the only way they can succeed and justify bonuses and promotions. I would do the same if I came from Harvard and didn't know how to run an airline.

 

[motch]

While I find it semi funny (that management can't do any better than Delta +1$) I also see some good in it-

1) Delta is a post bankruptcy contract. Now the Union can go back and say.. sure, lets look at pre bankruptcy contract and talk!

2) What are the rules governing RJ's to mainline flying at Delta? Thought there was something at Delta that limited the amount of RJ's compared to mainline aircraft.

3) Lets not forget the $1.2 Billion that was used to sweeten the pot for the Delta/NWA merged pilot group.

4) No Retro = No vote.

5) Does Delta have a 100 seater agreement in their contract?

6) As far as guys saying they would make less with a Delta contract here, you need to prove that to me. A few friends at Delta that are around my hire date here, make alittle more BUT work alot less... big difference~

I guess we can now work with the DALPA group and close their loopholes with our new contract. management has now said that we are the same as they are... cool.
No more 756 guys flying both international and domestic flying. Separate BES's for 757-200 and 767-400. IRO's on most flights.. Full double crews for the triples.. no more 1 Capt and 3 FO's... list can go on and on!

Thank you Management for finally admitting that you have been taking advantage of this pilot group and now want to get us closer in line with the worlds largest carrier!
It's gonna be great when we are marching on a picket line next year, with Delta pilots in support.. cause we demand BETTER than the Delta contract!

Always
Motch

FUPM~DARMA~Shut it Down

 

[thor2j]

We are all very aware of it. You are so far behind DAL that it will take 2 or 3 contract cycles (minimum) and BLLIONS in profit during that time for you to catch up. I know you finally have the right people in the union this time (I'm a big fan of JP) but you are so far behind you will not catch up anytime soon. I saw your union's "what we want" pdf presentation and it isn't even as good as Delta and that is your opening shot. You think you will negotiate DAL plus X% this time around? Wow. How about negotiating a reserve system like DALPA so pilots don't have to sit in a crashpad 19 days a month?

Boy, you must feel dumb now!

 

[Furloughed80]

-Long Call at Delta

Our proposal makes "A Reserve" a 12 hour call out.

-Greenslips

I honestly do not know what a greenslip is. Maybe someone can explain.

-IRO First Class (did this change for you guys?)

Proposal ensures Business First for crew rest.

-PBS parameters (better scheduling rules)

The PBS/Scheduling section of the proposal was over 5 pages long and contains numerous improvements.

I saw your union's "what we want" pdf presentation and it isn't even as good as Delta and that is your opening shot.

If this was true why would CAL management's OPENING position be DAL + $1 and not our weak "what we want" opening proposal minus scope?

You are so far behind DAL that it will take 2 or 3 contract cycles (minimum) and BLLIONS in profit during that time for you to catch up. I know you finally have the right people in the union this time (I'm a big fan of JP) but you are so far behind you will not catch up anytime soon

Once again, you are completely wrong.

 

[Superpilot92]

"Greenslip" = red flagged trip needed to get picked up and you get 200% pay for picking it up and your days restored.