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DAL BK worst option for recovery

  • Thread starter Thread starter FDJ2
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DLslug,


Thank you for backing me up.



ATR-driver,

The plane type we will supposedly eventually get rid of is the 737-200---we will not renew the leases. (Who would have thought that we would? They are old and gas guzzlers) The different types include 4 different 737s (737-200, 737-300 non glass (SLC), 737-300 Glass (Shuttle), and the 738).. Then we have the MD-88 and MD-90. Add the 757, 767-200, 767-300 DOM, 767-300ER(fuel dump capability for INTL) and the 767-400. Add the 777 and the old MD-11s, That is 13 types----12 in use currently. I don't know about the 20 cockpits---but some of the 757s were old ATA birds, and some of the 767-300ERs were Gulf Air birds..(each with differences) In one trip on the 757/767--you can fly all 4 types of planes, and then throw in there an ATA 757 or a Gulf Air 767--and it can get a little confusing....

Bye Bye--General Lee
 
FDJ2 said:
Inclusive, Babbitt stated that the regional pilots should migrate to the mainline, I have no problem with you migrating to the bottom of our list one day. So if you agree with Babbitt, as I do, then I'm sure you will have no problem eventually migrating to the bottom of the DAL list. What do you say Inclusive, do you want to flow/migrate through to the bottom of my list? If so, then we have common ground.
Sounds like you are still advocating a flowthrough FDJ2 - sorry no deal!
 
InclusiveScope said:
Sounds like you are still advocating a flowthrough FDJ2 - sorry no deal!
So then you don't agree with Babbitt and his recommendation for a flow through, but you selectively support the first half of his statement. Interesting.
 
FDJ2 said:
So then you don't agree with Babbitt and his recommendation for a flow through, but you selectively support the first half of his statement. Interesting.

FDJ2,
You have a serious problem with reading comprehension. Once again....ALPC: So if a pilot is flying a regional jet, then they should be on the mainline seniority list?

Babbitt: Sure.

What part of "....should be on the mainline seniority list" don't you understand? Were the Eagle pilots on the American seniority list? Were the CALEX pilots on the CAL seniority list? NO!

Four main problems with a flowthrough:

1. Still preserves the two tiered level of airline pilot and corresponding pay/benefits.

2. Flowthrough can be cancelled or changed as has been done with both the Eagle and CALEX flowthroughs.

3. Mainline pilots want to save spots for squadron buddies with ratios of flowthrough vs. street hiring.

4. Mathematically becoming impossible that many regional pilots will actually flow in this lifetime.

Let me think about it again.... Not NO, but HELL NO!

The two main points Babbitt made:
1. ALPA made a mistake
2. Regional flying should be on the same seniority list.

I agree with both of these points.
 
InclusiveScope said:
FDJ2,
You have a serious problem with reading comprehension. Once again....ALPC: So if a pilot is flying a regional jet, then they should be on the mainline seniority list?

Babbitt: Sure.

What part of "....should be on the mainline seniority list" don't you understand? Were the Eagle pilots on the American seniority list? Were the CALEX pilots on the CAL seniority list? NO!
Inclusive, you seem to forget the following from Babbitt: In other words, if you fly for USAir, the flying done by all of USAir and its code-sharing partners should be USAir system flying. There should be a provision that those regional pilots will someday migrate to the mainline carrier.

That's a flow through. You just seem to want to pick and choose which part of Babbitts statement you like and discard the rest. Babbitt envisioned an eventual migration of regional pilots on to mainline lists. I have no problem with a flow through that would allow you to eventually migrate on to the bottom of the DAL list.
 
more for General and FDJ2...

Top Of The News
The Coming Retirement Crisis
Dan Ackman, 06.18.04, 9:12 AM ET

NEW YORK - Traditional pension plans are increasingly underfunded; on the other hand, most people don't have pensions at all. All this could amount to a slow motion crisis as baby boomers head into retirement.

The Pension Benefit Guaranty Corp. reported June 17 that companies with underfunded pension plans reported a total shortfall of $278.6 billion in their latest round of filings. The agency noted that the figure was down slightly from the $305.9 billion reported last year, but up dramatically from the $18.4 billion shortfall reported as recently as 1999. The big growth in funding shortfalls took place between 2000 and 2002, coincident with the big drop in share prices.

This report may be alarming to the agency, and ultimately the U.S. Treasury, which backs the pensions, and to retirees who figure to benefit from them. But more alarming is the fact that most people don't have traditional pensions at all; and the ratio of active to inactive workers in the plans that do exist has fallen to roughly 1-to-1, down from more than 3.5-to-1 in 1980, according to the PBGC.

More From Dan Ackman Underfunded plans had $641.8 billion in assets to cover $920.3 billion in liabilities, for an average funded ratio of less than 70%, the PBGC said. The agency's report covers only companies with more than $50 million in underfunded pension liabilities. If underfunding in all insured pension plans were included, the picture would look even worse. Meanwhile, the PBGC itself has been suffering substantial losses in its own assets.

Significant underfunding continues to exist in the airline and steel industries. In the airline sector, 11 companies reported a total of $31 billion in pension underfunding in plans covering 444,000 participants. In the steel industry, seven companies reported a total of $6 billion in pension underfunding in plans covering 213,000 participants.

Since PBGC's inception in 1974, these two sectors have accounted for more than 70% of the claims against the pension insurance program while representing less than 5% of insured participants. The woes apparently stem from the fact that the steel industry has been in a long-term decline: In the 1950s, U.S. Steel alone employed 340,000 workers, more than twice what the entire industry employs today. Airlines, whose industry is on the rise, if not as persistently as it once was, suffer from a boom-and-bust tendency, as witnessed by the recent troubles of United Airlines parent UAL (nyse: UAL - news - people ) and Delta Air Lines (nyse: DAL - news - people ).

But retirees in these industries have guaranteed pensions. That's not the case for most workers. In a recent report, the PBGC said there were 44 million workers covered by its guaranties. That's less than one-third of the U.S. workforce.

Among older households--those headed by people 47 to 64--fewer than half have defined pensions, down from two-thirds 20 years ago, according to research by New York University economist Edward Wolff. The advent of self-managed pension plans such as 401(k)s will pick up some of the slack. But Wolff says that more than 40% of households headed by someone between the ages of 47 and 64 will not be able to replace even half of their retirement income once they stop working and that nearly 20% will have incomes below the poverty level.

"[By] 1998, every group of near-retirees, except those at the very top, lost ground compared with the counterparts in 1983," Wolff says. "The contraction of traditional defined benefit pension plans and their replacement by defined contribution plans appears to have helped rich, older Americans but hurt a large group of lower-income Americans." The 401(k)s, he says, are not making up for the demise of traditional plans, whether fully funded or, as is increasingly the case, underfunded.
 
General and FDJ2 enjoy......

United:
[From BusinessWeek Online:]

>>>>"Perhaps most significant, United's managers haven't shaved pension expenses by even a dollar. Thanks to Congress, the airline is off the hook for replenishing its underfunded pension plans for two years. Still, United owes $4.1 billion to its pension funds over the next five years. That's huge. Indeed, if Southwest Airlines (LUV ) had United's pension expenses, one analyst calculates that the discount carrier would have had a $255 million loss last year instead of a $445 million profit."

"United can't simply dump these liabilities on the government's Pension Benefit Guaranty Corp. Only companies on the verge of liquidation can do that. But if United's managers are serious about saving the company, they should negotiate concessions with its unions. Of course, that risks poisoning management-labor relations, which, in turn, could undo United's recent successes in on-time performance and customer service. That explains why managers have kept this [pension] budget item off the negotiating table."

"Unions might be more understanding than managers think, however. Though they grumbled, every one went along with pay cuts in 2003, and on June 10, they all went further by approving $50 million-a-year reductions in retiree health-care benefits."

"It will need more than 35 years, for instance, to pay off its debts, based on current revenue, according to S&P's Philip Baggaley."

"Recognizing United's half-steps, the ATSB should tell United no, again. [DONE DEAL.] By doing so, the board [IS FORCING] United managers to take full advantage of Chapter 11 status and bring costs down to levels the airline could sustain. Then, and only then, might United truly become a carrier for the long haul."<<<<<<
 
inclusivescope,


You seem giddy. That is weird. As the Stock market grows, the pension shortfall---even in this industry---will get smaller. The Dow is expected to grow a lot over the next five years, and hopefully, with the right investments by our crackpot team in ATL---the shortfall will get smaller. Time for you to get off caffeine.

Bye Bye--General Lee
 
General Lee said:
inclusivescope,


You seem giddy. That is weird. As the Stock market grows, the pension shortfall---even in this industry---will get smaller. The Dow is expected to grow a lot over the next five years, and hopefully, with the right investments by our crackpot team in ATL---the shortfall will get smaller. Time for you to get off caffeine.

Bye Bye--General Lee
General,
No I am not giddy. I am realistic. The Delta 10K us projecting a pension shortfall using a 9% annual rate of return. The historical stock rate of return is 7%. So even using better than historical averages, there is a shortfall. I personally have had enough of ASA and CMR pilots subsidizing your underfunded pension plan.
 
Inclusivescope,


Well, let's get rid of all the RJs and then buy only mainline aircraft to increase the seats enough to generate a certain amount of revenue to help fill in the shortfall. As Grinstein says, "we need to earn our way out of this"--and with the rapid expansion of LCCs---we need to compete with them with "seats." We could staple you guys and you will eventually have that 737 FO seat you and the RJDC want so badly. We will all make 30-40% less than we did in the recent past, but hey---we will try to refill the shortfall in the pensions. All we can do is give back some pay, and then hope for better times with cheaper gas and lots of passengers. And, $5.5 billion of our debt is due to RJs,(including purchase of Comair and ASA--and the Comair strike) and you only bring in 20% of the revenue.

Bye Bye--General Lee
 
InclusiveScope said:
General,
I personally have had enough of ASA and CMR pilots subsidizing your underfunded pension plan.
Please, all of dci equates to 15%of ALL Delta ASM's. We have all been down this road, you guys don't make as much for Delta as you think, if anything.
 
General Lee said:
WMS,

That is ridiculous. I remember back in 2000 during our C2K talks the Comair and ASA pilots celebrating because of the "ALPA MERGER POLCIY"---when everyone was SURE that they were going to get date of hire merge.
Wrong again General,
Point 6: "The ASA and Comair pilots are demanding date-of-hire (DOH)."

Counter Points:

The ASA-Comair merger petition and the Comair lawsuit only asked that ALPA's merger policy be invoked.

The ALPA merger policy requires ALPA to declare that a merger is in effect. Then it requires the affected pilot groups to enter into negotiations to develop a merged seniority list. Any "demands" or "preconditions" made by a participating pilot group are not supported by the policy and would have little effect, if any, on the final outcome.

Nobody has ever produced any evidence supporting the allegation that the ASA or Comair MEC's demanded DOH.

Nothing is a secret in this business. Had anyone in a position of responsibility made any demands for DOH there would be some supporting documentation somewhere. But the fact is no such "demand" was ever made. In fact, the paper trail shows that the ASA and Comair MEC's deliberately avoided floating any integration scenarios because they would have undermined the letter and spirit of ALPA's merger policy.

 
FDJ2 said:
That's a flow through. You just seem to want to pick and choose which part of Babbitts statement you like and discard the rest. Babbitt envisioned an eventual migration of regional pilots on to mainline lists. I have no problem with a flow through that would allow you to eventually migrate on to the bottom of the DAL list.
Point "A flow-through would fix things."

Counter Points:

A Flow-through would not stop the exploitation of Delta's alter-ego companies.

The #1 threat to collective bargaining power is the existence of alter ego. Not only do flow-throughs fail to address the alter-ego problem, but also when combined with ALPA's mainline scope clauses; they clearly encourage the creation alter egos.



If flow-throughs were viable alternatives to a merger, we would see them implemented between mainline carriers.

Did ALPA propose a flow-though for the TWA pilots when American purchased them? Did the Delta pilots offer a flow-through to the PanAm or Western pilots? Does ALPA's merger policy suggest flow-thoughs as a viable alternative to seniority integration? The answer to all these questions is an emphatic "NO." Flow-thoughs exist only when the mainline pilot group believes the "regional" aircraft are not pay compatible with the mainline fleet and they wish to restrict their number and operation.

Flow-throughs are employment Ponzi schemes.

A Ponzi scheme is defined as, "An investment swindle in which high profits are promised from fictitious sources and early investors are paid off with funds raised from later ones.
"

Flow-throughs are fundamentally the same. "Regional" pilots are "swindled" when they are convinced by ALPA that flow-though agreements will somehow offset the enormous losses caused by the restrictive scope clauses that inevitably accompany flow-through proposals. Invariably, only a small percentage of senior pilots will ever get to "flow-though," while the rest of the pilot group pays the price as a consequence of scope restrictions.

Consider a hypothetical "industry standard" flow-through agreement and how it would apply to a Comair or ASA pilot with six years experience flying Delta passengers and a seniority number of 500. Based on flow-throughs at other airlines, it is very unlikely more than 2 pilots each airline would be allowed to flow through per month.

According to AIR Inc., Delta hired over 1000 pilots between January 2000 and April of this year. If a flow through had been in place during that time, the pilot mentioned above would have moved up 22 numbers and would be about 6% closer to getting a new-hire slot at mainline. Of course he would now be frozen (as far as the flow-through goes) due to the mainline hiring freeze.

Once hiring resumes, and the same ratios hold, he could expect almost 25,000 pilots to have been hired ahead of him in the 20 years before he finally getting that new hire slot he was promised. Of course, Delta only has about 10,000 pilots total at this time. Do you see why many consider flow-throughs to be employment Ponzi schemes?

Flow-throughs do not address the numerous violations of ALPA's Constitution and By-laws.

As pointed out in the numerous grievances and the subsequent litigation, ALPA is clearly in violation of numerous provisions of their own Constitution and By-laws. A flow-through or preferential hiring program doesn't begin to address the issues concerning ALPA's egregious conduct.

Furthermore, a flow-through negotiated by a mainline MEC on behalf of its "regional" subsidiaries would constitute a further and continuous violation. In order to comply with ALPA's Constitution and By-laws, any flow-though agreement would have to be negotiated by the duly elected representatives of the affected pilot group. Since flow-thoughs are really hiring programs and do not contravene mainline working agreements, any involvement of the mainline MEC would be inappropriate and unconstitutional unless requested by the "regional" representatives.



If flow-throughs provided viable career progression, then why are pilots leaving American Eagle and Continental Express?

Every time a pilot leaves an airline with a flow-through for employment elsewhere, it’s a mini-referendum on the flow-through's viability as a career enhancing option. If flow-throughs really provided credible career progression, you would see little or no attrition at those airlines that had a flow-through. Pilots don't leave growing airlines like American or Continental, but they are leaving American Eagle and Continental Express. Why? The "career progression" offered by their flow-through agreements is mostly illusionary and very few pilots benefit from it.

The facts are that pilots leave companies with flow-thoughs for other employers because they know they will probably never be able to take advantage of the flow-though. If they waited, they know they would have nothing to show for their years of service at the wholly owned carrier. So they "vote" on the validity of the flow-through with their resumes and seek employment elsewhere. Some even bypass hundreds of their fellow pilots by leaving the "regional" and then gaining employment at the same mainline carrier a short while later.

 
Inclusivescope,


I have a close friend that was an ASA flight attendant that was in the crew lounge in 2000 when the ASA pilots were literally jumping up and down with joy thinking they were going to get date of hire seniority at Delta. You cannot deny that. That is crazy. Also remember that under that ALPA merger policy----they look at where you would fit financially---or your W2 forms. The most senior ASA/Comair pilot would still be stapled under that regard, since the most junior guy at Delta currently makes more than the most senior at DCI.
As far as the PAn Am guys and Western guys--a lot of them turned out better than had their own airlines stayed on their own and went Chap 7. Ever heard of the "dirty 30" at Pan Am? They were 30 senior 747 Capts at Pan Am that got word of a possible partial buy out of Pan Am, and they quickly bid down to the Pan Am 727 Shuttle and were allowed to progress to Delta. As soon as they got on the Delta seniority list, they all bid 767ER INTL Capt at JFk and were awarded it. They bumped 30 727 Capts out of the running, and then bid and were awarded DL 767 INTL Capt.

So, what will happen? Good question. But, I would bet that Dalpa will be bargaining away future "large" Rjs over to mainline to keep those furloughs coming back---and to make sure that the "market" for those planes---the 90 to 100 seat area---will be filled. The rates will be lower, but the flying will stay at mainline. IF you guys want to stay at DCI and eventually fly larger planes--a staple may be in your best interest--and as pay scales get closer---it may be a good option for you. If not---well, that is your decision. I have to go fly a 4 day trip out of ATL. Hasta.

Bye Bye--General Lee
 
Associated Press
Delta CEO Says Pilots' Gesture a Positive
Friday June 18, 5:02 pm ET
By Harry R. Weber, AP Business Writer Delta CEO Gerald Grinstein Calls Pilots' Consideration of Renewing Wage Cut Talks 'Positive Sign'

ATLANTA (AP) -- Delta Air Lines chief executive Gerald Grinstein said Friday pilots' willingness to renew wage cut talks is a 'positive sign' the financially struggling company can get the concessions it needs to avoid bankruptcy.

[size=-2]ADVERTISEMENT[/size]on error resume nextplugin=(IsObject(CreateObject("ShockwaveFlash.ShockwaveFlash.5"))) Grinstein told The Associated Press no new negotiation sessions have been scheduled, but he is optimistic they will take place soon given a pilots' union memo this week alluding to the possibility.

"I think the statement they made is a sign they realize how serious the situation is," Grinstein said.

Speaking in an interview at the Atlanta-based company's 75th anniversary celebration, Grinstein said the nation's third-largest airline is working hard to stave off bankruptcy.

"It's the last choice," he said. "It's not part of something you want to do. You hope everyone can take a sensible course and we avoid it."

On Thursday, Delta's pilots union said in a memo that it has instructed its negotiating committee to seek new talks with the carrier's management to break an impasse on wage concessions.

"As has been reported, Delta is under considerable pressure due to increasing fuel costs and declining yields," the Air Line Pilots Association told its members.

The two sides have not had formal negotiations since late January.

Delta is seeking a 30 percent wage cut, while pilots are offering 9 percent and to forego a 4.5 percent raise they received in May. Delta pilots make between $100,000 and $300,000 a year, according to the airline.

Union leaders said in the memo that any deal will depend on a "comprehensive financial restructuring plan to include all of Delta's other stakeholders."

Grinstein would not say Friday whether Delta would be willing to compromise on its position to get a deal done. But, he said he believes the airline will pull through its current financial crisis.

"This is an industry that has gone through a whole lot of cycles," Grinstein said. "This company is the one that will be able to make it through."

Delta has lost more than $3 billion and laid off 16,000 employees in the last three years. Analysts believe it has six to nine more months to get a deal with pilots or face bankruptcy.

Shares of Delta closed up 37 cents, or 6.3 percent, at $6.24 in trading on the New York Stock Exchange.

Delta Air Lines: www.delta.com
 
I think that is great. It is time to hammer out a deal---a fair one for us and one that will help the company. But, the creditors must also be involved---not only the pilots....


Bye Bye--General Lee
 
General Lee said:
Inclusivescope,I have a close friend that was an ASA flight attendant that was in the crew lounge in 2000 when the ASA pilots were literally jumping up and down with joy thinking they were going to get date of hire seniority at Delta. You cannot deny that. That is crazy. Also remember that under that ALPA merger policy----they look at where you would fit financially---or your W2 forms. The most senior ASA/Comair pilot would still be stapled under that regard, since the most junior guy at Delta currently makes more than the most senior at DCI.
As far as the PAn Am guys and Western guys--a lot of them turned out better than had their own airlines stayed on their own and went Chap 7. Ever heard of the "dirty 30" at Pan Am? They were 30 senior 747 Capts at Pan Am that got word of a possible partial buy out of Pan Am, and they quickly bid down to the Pan Am 727 Shuttle and were allowed to progress to Delta. As soon as they got on the Delta seniority list, they all bid 767ER INTL Capt at JFk and were awarded it. They bumped 30 727 Capts out of the running, and then bid and were awarded DL 767 INTL Capt.

Your "facts" are an ASA flight attendant telling you that "ASA pilots were literally jumping up and down with joy thinking they were going to get date of hire." As a pilot who was there and was active in the PID, I can tell you that is not true. Were there ASA pilots who thought that? YES. Were there many? NO. Would it have mattered? NO. Then after you perpetuate the DOH myth, you yourself state:
"Also remember that under that ALPA merger policy----they look at where you would fit financially---or your W2 forms." Those are your words - so why do and other Delta pilots worry about the ASA and CMR pilots who wanted DOH. There are Delta pilots who don't think ASA and CMR pilots are qualified enough to be Delta pilots - should I then assume that they speak for all Delta pilots?
 
General Lee said:
Inclusivescope,


Ever heard of the "dirty 30" at Pan Am? They were 30 senior 747 Capts at Pan Am that got word of a possible partial buy out of Pan Am, and they quickly bid down to the Pan Am 727 Shuttle and were allowed to progress to Delta. As soon as they got on the Delta seniority list, they all bid 767ER INTL Capt at JFk and were awarded it. They bumped 30 727 Capts out of the running, and then bid and were awarded DL 767 INTL Capt.

Bye Bye--General Lee
Gen 1 :

Not only has Inclusive Scope heard of them, the RJDC's Representative, Mike Haber, represented the shafted 727 pilots. If I am not mistaken ALPA had to mortgage the property in Herndon to pay that settlement and the Delta MEC was very much involved with the inside dealing....
 
IC, I think you don't understand what would likely happen if the PID went forward. DAL would SELL your arse quicker than you could turn your head. there is a REASON you are seperate. If DAL WANTED one pilot group, they'd HAVE ONE. They would have BOUGHT RJ's and NOT airlines. In the good years, 10% of the pilots are on first year pay. That means they make less THAN HALF what the other guys flying the same equipment make. WTH would GG allow one list? so that the most junior 737 FO has 10 years seniority? Now they have the luxery of having TWO sets of low paid first year pilots (during normal hiring years), one at mainline and one at Express. The key to the entire "one list" concept would be industry wide pay standards for ALL jets based on Decision 83 numbers, AND an abolishment of the absolutely ludicrous "probationary pay" scheme.
 
T-Bags said:
IC, I think you don't understand what would likely happen if the PID went forward. DAL would SELL your arse quicker than you could turn your head. there is a REASON you are seperate. If DAL WANTED one pilot group, they'd HAVE ONE. They would have BOUGHT RJ's and NOT airlines. In the good years, 10% of the pilots are on first year pay. That means they make less THAN HALF what the other guys flying the same equipment make. WTH would GG allow one list? so that the most junior 737 FO has 10 years seniority? Now they have the luxery of having TWO sets of low paid first year pilots (during normal hiring years), one at mainline and one at Express. The key to the entire "one list" concept would be industry wide pay standards for ALL jets based on Decision 83 numbers, AND an abolishment of the absolutely ludicrous "probationary pay" scheme.

T-bags,
You and your fellow anti-PID Delta pilots need to decide on one argument. You guys have two main arguments against the PID that totally conflict with each other.
1. The PID was turned down because ASA and CMR pilots wanted DOH.
2. The PID was turned down because Delta would not have allowed a single list - it can't happen.

Which one is it T-bags. If it couldn't happen, why all the fuss over this DOH rumor?
 

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