DAL BK worst option for recovery

[FDJ2]

Not at Delta FDJ2. The only group at Delta with a Defined Benefits plan is the Delta pilots. QUOTE]

Inclusive, the non contract employees have a pension plan also, DAL made a voluntary contribution of $325M into it last quarter. The annual contribution into the non contract employee pension plan is much larger than the pilot plan.

 

[FDJ2]

The truth comes out FDJ2. For the record, you did not acquire me. You and DALPA may think you own me and my fellow ASA and CMR pilots - but you will soon learn the truth.

Let me rephrase it for the overly sensitive. My company bought your company. Feel better now?

 

[FDJ2]

What Babbit suggested was One List.

I think Babbitt used the word migrate which suggests a flow of pilots from the regionals to the mainline. Perhaps we should refer to it as a migrate through.

 

[InclusiveScope]

I'm not disputing the first half of Babbitt's opinion, I'm just pointing out the second half, which you seem to have a problem with. You seem all to happy to go along with the first half of what he says, but then you attempt to ignore the second half which argues for flow through provisions.

No I am not ignoring the second part - here it is again FDJ2:

Babbitt: The difficulty arose probably from some shortsightedness during the early days of deregulation. I say shortsightedness — I blame us, ALPA, as much as anybody, myself included. I was a member of a negotiating team at the time and the carriers came to us and said, "Look, you know we're deregulated and we are going to sell those Convairs, those Electras, DC-7s or whatever, simply because they are not profitable anymore. We're not going to fly into small cities anymore, but you wouldn't mind if PBA or some other commuter did it, would you?" We said, "No, as long as you respect our scope clause, we'll give you permission." In retrospect, with the incredible clarity that 20 years of hindsight will bring, we should have said, "Yes, we care, it's our plan. If the company wants to buy some Beech 99s or F-27s, we'll fly them. We'll put a section in our contract. Set up a division and have a system similar to a farm team. But, one seniority list." Sure, we might have had to change some work rules, but that's been going on for a long time, too. We have international rules and now we have shuttle rules with some carriers. We could have had regional rules. That's where the problem was hatched. The solution in my view would be that we need to acknowledge that this is airline system flying. In other words, if you fly for USAir, the flying done by all of USAir and its code-sharing partners should be USAir system flying. There should be a provision that those regional pilots will someday migrate to the mainline carrier. They are already flying the colors; they have the corporate loyalty. This is just a convenient bypass mechanism the carriers have instituted to keep us somewhat apart.

ALPC: So if a pilot is flying a regional jet, then they should be on the mainline seniority list?

Babbitt: Sure.

Sounds like the right idea to me. Whatya think FDJ2? If you want to call a single list a "flowthrough" then fine - I support it. If you want an Eagle/COEX type flowthrough you can forget it.

 

[InclusiveScope]

Not at Delta FDJ2. The only group at Delta with a Defined Benefits plan is the Delta pilots. QUOTE]

Inclusive, the non contract employees have a pension plan also, DAL made a voluntary contribution of $325M into it last quarter. The annual contribution into the non contract employee pension plan is much larger than the pilot plan.

Those are DC plans - a much different animal than your DB plan. The DC plans are a pay as you go system, whereas your DB is simply a promiss to pay you X amount when you retire. The DC plan are always funded. Whereas the amount required to make good on the promiss to pay your retirement is severly underfunded. You do understand the difference don't you?

 

[FDJ2]

Sounds like the right idea to me. Whatya think FDJ2? If you want to call a single list a "flowthrough" then fine - I support it. If you want an Eagle/COEX type flowthrough you can forget it.

Inclusive, Babbitt stated that the regional pilots should migrate to the mainline, I have no problem with you migrating to the bottom of our list one day. So if you agree with Babbitt, as I do, then I'm sure you will have no problem eventually migrating to the bottom of the DAL list. What do you say Inclusive, do you want to flow/migrate through to the bottom of my list? If so, then we have common ground.

 

[wms]

I think Babbitt used the word migrate which suggests a flow of pilots from the regionals to the mainline. Perhaps we should refer to it as a migrate through.

Babbit used the words "one seniority list" and agreed that "regional pilots should be on the mainline seniority list". Flow is a way of making others "feel" like they're a part of the team without having to mean it.

 

[FDJ2]

Those are DC plans - a much different animal than your DB plan.

Negative, many non contract employees still have a DB plan. DAL is looking to change that, but they have to give them 7 years notice before switching from a DB to a DC plan. You did know that didn't you?

Inclusive, how do you explain the fact that DAL contributes more into the non contract employees pension plan then the pilot pension plan?

 

[wms]

Inclusive, Babbitt stated that the regional pilots should migrate to the mainline, I have no problem with you migrating to the bottom of our list one day. So if you agree with Babbitt, as I do, then I'm sure you will have no problem eventually migrating to the bottom of the DAL list. What do you say Inclusive, do you want to flow/migrate through to the bottom of my list? If so, then we have common ground.

That's what we've been saying all along. A staple which puts the most senior DCI guy below the most junior DAL guy. There are only a few old-timers at DCI that would have a problem with that, and if when they're seniority allowed them to move up to DAL they didn't want to, they wouldn't have to. They can take the proud route and retire on social security or they can suck it up and have a future, it's up to them.

 

[FDJ2]

Babbit used the words "one seniority list" and "regional pilots should be on the mainline seniority list". Flow is a way of making others "feel" like they're a part of the team without having to mean it.

He also said that regional pilots should eventually migrate on to the mainline list. What do you think he meant by that? To me migrating sounds more like flowing then stapling, which I don't have much of a problem with either, but I'm sure DAL management and the RJDC do.

 

[wms]

He also said that regional pilots should eventually migrate on to the mainline list. What do you think he meant by that? To me migrating sounds more like flowing then stapling, which I don't have much of a problem with either, but I'm sure DAL management and the RJDC do.

If migrate means flow-through, and he also said staple, then he said two conflicting things in one breath, which is typical ALPA fashion. The fact is, ML pilots don't want any relationship with the regional pilots; which is fine, we'd probably be better off. But don't talk unity and then throw up divisions.

 

[satpak77]

repeat

do we have a hard date on the final yes/no on pilot concessions?

 

[InclusiveScope]

From the DAL 2003 10-K:

"our credit ratings have negatively impacted our ability to issue unsecured debt, renew outstanding letters of credit that back certain of our obligations and obtain certain financial instruments that we use in our fuel hedging program."

 

[General Lee]

WMS,

That is ridiculous. I remember back in 2000 during our C2K talks the Comair and ASA pilots celebrating because of the "ALPA MERGER POLCIY"---when everyone was SURE that they were going to get date of hire merge. Wrong. As far as the ML guys not wanting a staple----that is wrong also. I don't know one Mainline guy that would have refused a staple of the DCI people.

inclusivescope,

We sold the hedging contracts for a net of $83 million in FEB---and that money went to pre-fund the pensions (not even the pilot pensions)--even though Congress came through and gave a 2 year relief window. It turns out Delta did not have to sell those hedges---and they were purchased in advance. The other Majors---like NW and CAL also thought oil prices would eventually go down--and they didn't hedge either. It turned out to be a terrible gamble---and then blamed on the pilots.....again.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[MedFlyer]

WMS,

inclusivescope,

We sold the hedging contracts for a net of $83 million in FEB---and that money went to pre-fund the pensions (not even the pilot pensions)--even though Congress came through and gave a 2 year relief window. It turns out Delta did not have to sell those hedges---and they were purchased in advance. The other Majors---like NW and CAL also thought oil prices would eventually go down--and they didn't hedge either. It turned out to be a terrible gamble---and then blamed on the pilots.....again.

Bye Bye--General Lee

If DALPA would bargain in good faith, management wouldn't be forced to play these games. DALPA refused to bargain back in February. They said 9%+May raise, take it or leave it. In order to get DALPA to bargain in good faith, management HAS to run the company into the ground. Its sad that the company has to be damaged, but that's how it works with DALPA.

To be fair, it works the same in reverse. Pilots run the company into the ground (ie slowdowns, sickouts, etc) in order to get management to bargain in good faith when times are good.

If anyone wonders why pilots are willing to work harder for the same (or less) pay at the LCC's, these games are one reason.

 

[wms]

WMS,

That is ridiculous. I remember back in 2000 during our C2K talks the Comair and ASA pilots celebrating because of the "ALPA MERGER POLCIY"---when everyone was SURE that they were going to get date of hire merge. Wrong. As far as the ML guys not wanting a staple----that is wrong also. I don't know one Mainline guy that would have refused a staple of the DCI people.

Bye Bye--General Lee

I was around during that time also. There was a small minority here with a loud voice talking about DOH. The fact is, most ASA pilots were disappointed with the MEC's action of going directly to ALPA national with the CA MEC before working more with DALPA. ALPA national and DALPA spread the misinformation that there was a concensus among ASA pilots about DOH, when there was not. I had the misfortune of having to ride on more than one DAL jump seat and explain that the majority of us did not support those actions, and that what the DAL guys were hearing from their MEC was not true for the majority of us. The fact is, that even then with the strained relations most of the DAL guys I talked to would have supported the staple, as you have been saying.

Even now many DAL pilots feel the RJDC is representative of ASA pilots when in fact they are not. Most ASA pilots I know do not support the RJDC, and an overwhelming majority would support a staple at the bottom of the DAL list. But if there is not a staple, then we don't feel DALPA has a right to negotiate for us by proxy, beyond protecting their interests. We all have interests to protect and should all be included in negotiating for them. Even that doesn't mean we all get what we want, but at least we have a chance to try. There is a lot of distrust right now which is a result of too many parties (including us) forwarding their own agenda, and passing along misinformation.

The best solution is to unify.

P.S. You and a few others need to go on one of those mellow me out seminars.

 

[InclusiveScope]

Negative, many non contract employees still have a DB plan. DAL is looking to change that, but they have to give them 7 years notice before switching from a DB to a DC plan. You did know that didn't you?

Inclusive, how do you explain the fact that DAL contributes more into the non contract employees pension plan then the pilot pension plan?

Yes I did. From the Delta 10K:

"However, as announced in the December 2002 quarter and effective July 1, 2003, the existing plan for employees not covered by a collective bargaining agreement (Non-contract employees) was converted to a cash balance plan with a seven year transition period. During the transition period, eligible Non-contract employees receive the greater of the old final average salary benefit or the new cash balance benefit. Generally, the new cash balance benefit formula provides for an annual pay credit of 6% of eligible pay plus accrued interest. Participants in the plan on July 1, 2003, may be eligible for additional pay credits of 2% or 2.75%, depending on their age and service as of that date. Non-contract employees hired on or after July 1, 2003 are covered by the cash balance plan only. Effective July 1, 2010, all covered employees earn the cash balance benefit only."

Delta has changed it, there not "looking to change it". It will take a 7 year transition, but after that only the pilots will still have the DB program. However I doubt even the pilots will have it then.

As far as contributing more to the non-pilots retirement, it depends on how you account for it. Delta took a $212 million non-cash charge related to the pilots.​

​

"During December 2003, we recorded a $212 million non-cash charge on our Consolidated Statement of Operations related to our pilots’ defined benefit pension plan due to a significant increase in pilot retirements. We recorded this charge in accordance with SFAS No. 88, “Employers’ Accounting for Settlements and Curtailments of Defined Benefit Pension Plans and for Termination Benefits” (SFAS 88). SFAS 88 requires settlement accounting if the cost of all settlements, including lump sum retirement benefits paid, in a year exceeds the total of the service and interest cost components of pension expense for the same period."
​

​

I notice that Delta is using a 9% rate of return on their investment with the Pension plan. I am not planning on a 9% rate of return on my retirement investments.​

 

[ATR-DRIVR]

Today's atlanta 'urinal and constipation' business section...
"Delta has 12 different cockpit types and 20 different types of aircraft"............

Can one of the DL types list all of them??? I must have missed some somewhere....

 

[DL_Infidel]

What is "good faith" according to MedFlyer

If DALPA would bargain in good faith, management wouldn't be forced to play these games. DALPA refused to bargain back in February. They said 9%+May raise, take it or leave it. In order to get DALPA to bargain in good faith, management HAS to run the company into the ground. Its sad that the company has to be damaged, but that's how it works with DALPA.

To be fair, it works the same in reverse. Pilots run the company into the ground (ie slowdowns, sickouts, etc) in order to get management to bargain in good faith when times are good.

If anyone wonders why pilots are willing to work harder for the same (or less) pay at the LCC's, these games are one reason.

And management is bargaining in good faith? "We want 45% of your contract or nothing at all." The 13.5% was an opener...that's how negotiations work, I'm sure you know that.

Why doesn't the ASA pilot group direct their MEC to approach management on Monday and accept management's opener? That's what I thought.

There are reasons some of us are not negotiators. I'll trust the direction of the DMEC...they have all the confidential info, we do not. Management says they need XX% and it represents a minimum. After the DMEC finishes their meeting in LAX this week, they will know exactly what that minimum is.



DL_Infidel

 

[DLslug]

Wow everybody...


I was trying to come up with something good to say, but after reading 4 pages of posts, you all have already said it.

Your expert views are truly impressive.

All for now,

DLslug

P.S. You guys are sure givin' the General some heat...lighten up!!

P.S.S. Nice to see another DL somebody out there.