CWO's flying for the Navy again.

[Spyguy]

What do you guys think about the navy's brightest idea of having E5 and E6's transfer to CWO slots, learn to fly and take all the shore flying billets away???
That's right, it looks like no more shore tours for aviators. Oh, and they won't have a ground job either, just flying.

 

[VVJM265]

Bad idea!

 

[pilotyip]

Would you need a college degree for that program?

 

[Rotorhead1]

The Army has been doing this for years. Their best pilots are CWO's. Great idea. Let the Commissioned Officers do what they are supposed to do and float around on boats and leave the flying to the true professional pilots the CWO's

 

[VVJM265]

The bad idea isn't the CWOs flying but keeping them in the shore billets. Folks are already starting to get run ragged. If the leadership wants to open other sources for pilots, that's fine, but keep everone on some kind of sea-shore rotation. This concept of outsourcing shore duty is going to bite the Navy in the rear in the long term because nobody will want to stay on continuous sea duty. I don't understand, why can't they figure that out?

 

[stangman]

I agree. Bad deal for us commissioned officers, just like it's a bad deal for Army commissioned officers. There are simply going to be fewer and fewer flying billets for commissioned aviators. Is it good for the Navy? Who cares!!
Here is the message:
http://www.npc.navy.mil/NR/rdonlyres/68EA9575-F351-48D0-9755-9F13E6045E16/0/NAV06031.txt
The CWO flying program is not designed for "shore duty" flying only. They will rotate between sea/shore rotations just like every one else. Looks like they will not have to do disassociated/staff/aide/war college tours and they will not serve in department head billets at squadrons. Their only job will be to fly a weapon system or a training command aircraft their entire career. Sounds like a pretty cool career path for some lucky "E's". Sounds like there will be more and more time out of the cockpit for "O's".

 

[Lou3]

wow, another window in life that opened up after I passed it. Bummer, it sounds like a good potential program. It has worked out well for the Army.

 

[millhouse21]

That's kind of funny. I can't tell you how many conversations I had with AAs who were mess cranking or working in the laundry. I would ask something like "why did you join the navy?" They would typically reply "I wanted to fly jets and my recruiter told me the best way to do that was to enlist and work my way up." I really thought those recruiters were full of sh1t but I guess they were just ahead of the times!!!

 

[Pistlpetet]

This seems like a cheap version of the NAVCAD program, which is what they should bring back if they are short of pilots. Personally, I do not think there should be a shortage of qualified candidates for them to select, however, I am sure they would like to get somebody into the cockpit cheaper.

If they want Warrant Officers, why don't they just take some of the ones that are getting out of the Army. They are already trained. It seems to work for the Coast Guard.

Any attempt to not integrate these Navy CWOs into the mainstream deployed Navy will just add to the resentment they will already face for being a non RLO (Real Live Officer) Pilot.

The Army Warrant system has served a purpose, but it should not be viewed as the ideal situation.

LDO's would be the way to go.

 

[sardaddy]

I think this is a very interesting topic so this is a very long post so please bear with me.

Having been a warrant officer pilot (Army) and now a commissioned pilot (Coast Guard) I have seem both sides and I do see a difference. I also see that in order to go from one way of operating to another will take a complete organizational change not just an arbitrary addition of 30 pilots.

The Army likes warrant officer for many reasons. Cheaper labor, and they don’t have a whole bunch of aviation officers competing for limited command slots.

The cheap labor: Many warrant officers resent the fact that they get paid less. They do the same job for less pay. It doesn’t start out that way, new warrants are just happy to be flying but as you grow older and more cynical you realize that these young LTs are making more than you and you have been doing the job for years.

The available officers: If the Army made all of their pilots officers, there would be more officers in aviation than any other branch and nobody in the Army wants that (except the aviators) because by law the Army is only authorized so many officers and those numbers would have to be pulled from other branches. The Army also has commands at very junior levels (O-3) and there just are not enough to go around so many would be left at the wayside early in their career and would not be competive for O-4 so you would lose your experience base. The other services do not have commands until much higher ranks and can accommodate a natural progression of an officer. Plus RLOs cost more.

So to get rid of warrant officers in the Army would be an institutional change.

To add warrant officer pilots into another service like the Navy is planning to do seems as if it will have some problems as well. Eventually, the same pay issues will arise as once the initial excitement of being able to fly wears off, these warrant officer pilots will realize they are just being paid less to do the same job and have no hope of upward mobility. Like Army Warrant Officers, many will not mind but there will be those that will. No matter what is said or done, they will be treated as second class citizens. The whole separate but equal thing. You are an equal when the wardroom needs money for the wardroom fund, but you are just a glorified enlisted man when other needs arise so the job is dumped on you.

Unlike the Army, the warrant officer will be the minority not the majority so he won’t have the backing of a crusty W-4 pilot who is willing to take that junior officer aside and explain how he is to treat warrant officers, especially once those pilots gain a lot of experience. Using the current Navy/Coast Guard system, a high flight time Warrant officer Aircraft Commander would still be a co-pilot to a low time O-2 Aircraft Commander. I see a lot of animosity that could arise from this.

I wish all of those that apply for the program good luck as with anything new there will be growing pains.

 

[Ben Stiller]

Cheap labor...sound familiar (airlines)? Now the RLO's are the majors and Warrants are the regionals taking your flying. Why wait to get out to familiarize yourself with the WalMart way of life.

 

[pilotyip]

Again too many negative vibes, this is still a great career and well beyond anything comparable to Wal-Mart. Where else can a high school grad have shot at making close to $100K/yr by his mid-30's

 

[srjorion]

The Navy had already started a program where guys become LDOs and train specifically to fly as NFOs on P-3s. There were a few trained a couple of years ago. I’m not sure if any have gone through training recently though.

 

[HoursHore]

You'll notice the targeted communities, other than the helos, are the Communities with NFO's. (other than prowlers and the new hornet) I think the carrot is the pilot slot, with the stick being the likely assignment as a NFO in a P-3 or E-6.

 

[E-handle]

I think after sitting between 2 P-3 pilots for 3500 hours as a PO1(E-6) flight engineer, and having a private rating myself; I would have made a fine copilot on the P-3 Orion. Besides I was starting to get pretty bored tracking the fuel burn and flipping switches.

Another reason to do this is for the chicks. O’s always had the better looking women.
Now maybe a smart woman could tell the difference between a “winged” LT or CWO3 in khakis ---- but as long as they were hot, who cares if they were smart!



Alas, I am 20 years too late for the program.

 

[NorthShore]

Using the current Navy/Coast Guard system, a high flight time Warrant officer Aircraft Commander would still be a co-pilot to a low time O-2 Aircraft Commander. I see a lot of animosity that could arise from this.

I wish all of those that apply for the program good luck as with anything new there will be growing pains.

You think

I don't think the program has much of a chance in thn Navy w/o a BIG paradigm shift. I had a few pissing contests with young Commissioned officers even as a CW4 (as high as you could go "back in the day")in the Army.

As far as the HS grad comment goes, I don't think you'll see any inthe program. You can count on a big pool to draw from, with more than a few licensed pilots and a bunch of college degrees.

The best of luck to all of them!!!

 

[kblackav8or]

I was a NAVCAD and even I don't think this is a good idea. The old LDO pilot program was a failure, all those guys did was suck up jobs in the training commands. It is all about them trying to save a buck. What my community needs is NFO's not lesser pilots. It isn't the monkey skills but all the other stuff that is unique to what we do.

 

[Spyguy]

Guys,
You may want to read the message. The CWO's will only be serving as copilots. They will never be aircraft commanders. Well, I say that term losely because it won't take much for the big Navy to change that. What it does is make the JO's take up the slack as far as ground jobs are concerned. Let's take a regular P-3 squadron with 30 pilots, which includes skipper, xo (one or more MAY be a NFO), any o-4's (again should be a mix of NFO/pilot), and the rest JO's (as of now). They aren't going to add more billets. That will be the total number. So, if you get a mix of senior guys leaning on the pilot side and in come the warrants, now the JO's have to take up the large hole filled for ground jobs. Very, very bad idea. QOL goes right into the crapper. The navy is going to lose a lot of good people over this. It won't affect me much, but there are a lot of people who are planning on getting out and some on the fence. I promise this will push those on the fence towards getting out. Just a bad idea all around for JO's.

 

[transpac]

I was around a few decades ago before all the Navy and Marine enlisted pilots retired. There was no argument then about their qualifications, in fact they were considered as a group to be the best pilots in the Navy. Since they were usually the most experienced pilot assigned to a flight, they almost always were designated as the Plane Commander.

 

[transpac]

Guys,
You may want to read the message. The CWO's will only be serving as copilots. They will never be aircraft commanders.

Spyguy: Where did you find this info? I don't see such a restriction in the CNO msg or the CWO website FAQ's. In fact, the FAQ's state that they can be Natops check pilots.

 

[Spyguy]

I got some of that info from some of the guys in on the planning for it. May not be the intent of what the actual message says. My experience is more from the VP/VQ community. I heard a lenthy discussion today concerning the helicopter side of the house. In our community, VP/VQ the senior ranking QUALIFIED individual is the one signing for the aircraft. Period. So, unless the guy/gal is the only a/c on a crew then they will never sign for a plane. I don't have a problem with CWO's flying, I just see it as the JO's getting the crap end of the stick from this anyway you look at it. I just don't understand why they won't use officers. There are more than enough college grads that want to fly. The navy already has a system set up to take well qualified E's out of the enlisted ranks, sends them to college (not if they already have been), go to OCS, then to flight school. A lot do great in the program. Also, just because someone has a private pilot's license, does not mean that they will make it in Mil training. We have some that wash out now. I just don't see the benefits of CWO's instead of O's. Except that it gets rid of a lot of the responsibilities for the CWO's. Most of my time at work was not flying, it was the ground job. I know the navy is not going to increase the number of pilots per squadron, so that means a ton more work that the JO's are going to have to make up. I figured it out once, while I was on det. JO's average 100-115 hours a week during a normal work week on detachment. The navy is going to have 30 CWO's to start out with, but if the program catches on then there is ABSOLUTELY no reason for someone officer candidate to join the navy instead of the air force. NONE. They are going to make life so miserable for JO's that no one will want to join, and my family is all navy. CWO's will not be going TACAIR, but helicopters make up 65% of naval aviation. If you include VT's, VR, VP, and VQ then roughly 80% or so is accounted for. This will greatly influence the community as a whole.

 

[transpac]

Spyguy, thanks for the info. Didn't use to work that way. The Ops Officer decided who the AC was going to be and relative rank didn't enter into the decision.

I've been out for a long time, but still have a few active duty contacts. I'm hearing rumors that in the near future a college degree will be required for promotion to the senior enlisted ranks and that those folks will be doing many of the traditional JO ground jobs. If true, this should ease the workload.

 

[VVJM265]

Two things:

What Spyguy says about who signs for the plane is pretty much true in VP/VQ, but in some helo squadrons, ops will balance the A time, so whoever is first on the schedule will sign the A sheet. We did that when I flew 26s. As long as the CO is on board, it works out OK. Not sure if this will pan out with the CWOs

The explanation I got was that it will increase the DH and command opportunities for the the URL pilots in the targeted communities. (ie X DH slots per Y URLs vs. X DH slots per (Y-30) URLs.) May make some sense, but that said, I think that Spyguy is right, especially if they ramp this up; in the end the URL JOs will get even more of the ground duties, QOL will go down the tube and guys won't want to hang around. Those two or three that hang on may have a really good chance at command, but it will be h311 getting there.

My 2c

 

[sandman2122]

So no fighters or tactical aircraft? Just crew type a/c?

 

[Spyguy]

correct sandman,P-3, helos, and not sure if VR is included C-40, C-9, c-130

 

[sandman2122]

Great opportunity. I'll bet they get overwhelmed with applicants.

They can go fly civilan like everyone else after their tour is complete - if they elect to seperate.

 

[zab1001]

So, unless the guy/gal is the only a/c on a crew then they will never sign for a plane.

Eh, I have a sneaking suspicion they'll qual these guys as PPCs and pair them up with URL TACCOs, probably O-4s. I'd bet against them making Mission Commander.

 

[Pistlpetet]

No Military has ever trained pilots to be "Just Co-Pilots". Sure there are some that are not worthy, and some that might never make AC, PIC, but they always have the opportunity. A copilot is only one bullet away from being the man in charge, and training someone with the with the mindset of "Well you are only going to be a co-pilot all your career" would be negligent. I doubt that will happen.

 

[sardaddy]

Pistlpetet,

You are right, no service wants to make a copilot and keep them as a copilot but in the Coast Guard and the Navy for the most part, there is a potential that you could be an aircraft commander yet not be able to sign for an aircraft if the pilots you continually fly with are senior in rank to you.

That is the potential problem of a CWO going to be a pilot in the Navy. They can get you trained an eventually give you an aircraft commander designation but if you fly with anyone senior to you they will be the AC unless you happen to be an IP and are conducting an IP flight.

Now at least in CG regs, and it seems Navy regs as well, the OPS boss can designate a junior AC to be the AC over a senior pilot for a flight, but it isn't the norm. Since only 30 warrants are supposed to be made then the majority of the time, they will be flying with someone more senior. This is the crux of what I meant in my original post. In order for this to work there will have to be an institutional change on how an AC is chosen.

Heck, the problem is inherent now with just commissioned pilots. Many don't actually sign for an aircraft for quite sometime after being designated as an AC. But they eventually become more senior and sign for more and more missions. A warrant officer won't have that opportunity.

 

[zab1001]

Eventually the CWOs will qual as ACs and be paired with unquall'ed URL guys (still in the syllabus for PPC) as their 2Ps and 3Ps.

I've had plenty of hops as PPC with guys senior to me (in rank) as my 2P, since they were still in the process of getting quall'ed (prior SWOs) or re-quall'ed (new O-4 DHs just checking in to the squadron).