CWO's flying for the Navy again.

[NorthShore]

Using the current Navy/Coast Guard system, a high flight time Warrant officer Aircraft Commander would still be a co-pilot to a low time O-2 Aircraft Commander. I see a lot of animosity that could arise from this.

I wish all of those that apply for the program good luck as with anything new there will be growing pains.

You think

I don't think the program has much of a chance in thn Navy w/o a BIG paradigm shift. I had a few pissing contests with young Commissioned officers even as a CW4 (as high as you could go "back in the day")in the Army.

As far as the HS grad comment goes, I don't think you'll see any inthe program. You can count on a big pool to draw from, with more than a few licensed pilots and a bunch of college degrees.

The best of luck to all of them!!!

 

[kblackav8or]

I was a NAVCAD and even I don't think this is a good idea. The old LDO pilot program was a failure, all those guys did was suck up jobs in the training commands. It is all about them trying to save a buck. What my community needs is NFO's not lesser pilots. It isn't the monkey skills but all the other stuff that is unique to what we do.

 

[Spyguy]

Guys,
You may want to read the message. The CWO's will only be serving as copilots. They will never be aircraft commanders. Well, I say that term losely because it won't take much for the big Navy to change that. What it does is make the JO's take up the slack as far as ground jobs are concerned. Let's take a regular P-3 squadron with 30 pilots, which includes skipper, xo (one or more MAY be a NFO), any o-4's (again should be a mix of NFO/pilot), and the rest JO's (as of now). They aren't going to add more billets. That will be the total number. So, if you get a mix of senior guys leaning on the pilot side and in come the warrants, now the JO's have to take up the large hole filled for ground jobs. Very, very bad idea. QOL goes right into the crapper. The navy is going to lose a lot of good people over this. It won't affect me much, but there are a lot of people who are planning on getting out and some on the fence. I promise this will push those on the fence towards getting out. Just a bad idea all around for JO's.

 

[transpac]

I was around a few decades ago before all the Navy and Marine enlisted pilots retired. There was no argument then about their qualifications, in fact they were considered as a group to be the best pilots in the Navy. Since they were usually the most experienced pilot assigned to a flight, they almost always were designated as the Plane Commander.

 

[transpac]

Guys,
You may want to read the message. The CWO's will only be serving as copilots. They will never be aircraft commanders.

Spyguy: Where did you find this info? I don't see such a restriction in the CNO msg or the CWO website FAQ's. In fact, the FAQ's state that they can be Natops check pilots.

 

[Spyguy]

I got some of that info from some of the guys in on the planning for it. May not be the intent of what the actual message says. My experience is more from the VP/VQ community. I heard a lenthy discussion today concerning the helicopter side of the house. In our community, VP/VQ the senior ranking QUALIFIED individual is the one signing for the aircraft. Period. So, unless the guy/gal is the only a/c on a crew then they will never sign for a plane. I don't have a problem with CWO's flying, I just see it as the JO's getting the crap end of the stick from this anyway you look at it. I just don't understand why they won't use officers. There are more than enough college grads that want to fly. The navy already has a system set up to take well qualified E's out of the enlisted ranks, sends them to college (not if they already have been), go to OCS, then to flight school. A lot do great in the program. Also, just because someone has a private pilot's license, does not mean that they will make it in Mil training. We have some that wash out now. I just don't see the benefits of CWO's instead of O's. Except that it gets rid of a lot of the responsibilities for the CWO's. Most of my time at work was not flying, it was the ground job. I know the navy is not going to increase the number of pilots per squadron, so that means a ton more work that the JO's are going to have to make up. I figured it out once, while I was on det. JO's average 100-115 hours a week during a normal work week on detachment. The navy is going to have 30 CWO's to start out with, but if the program catches on then there is ABSOLUTELY no reason for someone officer candidate to join the navy instead of the air force. NONE. They are going to make life so miserable for JO's that no one will want to join, and my family is all navy. CWO's will not be going TACAIR, but helicopters make up 65% of naval aviation. If you include VT's, VR, VP, and VQ then roughly 80% or so is accounted for. This will greatly influence the community as a whole.

 

[transpac]

Spyguy, thanks for the info. Didn't use to work that way. The Ops Officer decided who the AC was going to be and relative rank didn't enter into the decision.

I've been out for a long time, but still have a few active duty contacts. I'm hearing rumors that in the near future a college degree will be required for promotion to the senior enlisted ranks and that those folks will be doing many of the traditional JO ground jobs. If true, this should ease the workload.

 

[VVJM265]

Two things:

What Spyguy says about who signs for the plane is pretty much true in VP/VQ, but in some helo squadrons, ops will balance the A time, so whoever is first on the schedule will sign the A sheet. We did that when I flew 26s. As long as the CO is on board, it works out OK. Not sure if this will pan out with the CWOs

The explanation I got was that it will increase the DH and command opportunities for the the URL pilots in the targeted communities. (ie X DH slots per Y URLs vs. X DH slots per (Y-30) URLs.) May make some sense, but that said, I think that Spyguy is right, especially if they ramp this up; in the end the URL JOs will get even more of the ground duties, QOL will go down the tube and guys won't want to hang around. Those two or three that hang on may have a really good chance at command, but it will be h311 getting there.

My 2c

 

[sandman2122]

So no fighters or tactical aircraft? Just crew type a/c?

 

[Spyguy]

correct sandman,P-3, helos, and not sure if VR is included C-40, C-9, c-130

 

[sandman2122]

Great opportunity. I'll bet they get overwhelmed with applicants.

They can go fly civilan like everyone else after their tour is complete - if they elect to seperate.

 

[zab1001]

So, unless the guy/gal is the only a/c on a crew then they will never sign for a plane.

Eh, I have a sneaking suspicion they'll qual these guys as PPCs and pair them up with URL TACCOs, probably O-4s. I'd bet against them making Mission Commander.

 

[Pistlpetet]

No Military has ever trained pilots to be "Just Co-Pilots". Sure there are some that are not worthy, and some that might never make AC, PIC, but they always have the opportunity. A copilot is only one bullet away from being the man in charge, and training someone with the with the mindset of "Well you are only going to be a co-pilot all your career" would be negligent. I doubt that will happen.

 

[sardaddy]

Pistlpetet,

You are right, no service wants to make a copilot and keep them as a copilot but in the Coast Guard and the Navy for the most part, there is a potential that you could be an aircraft commander yet not be able to sign for an aircraft if the pilots you continually fly with are senior in rank to you.

That is the potential problem of a CWO going to be a pilot in the Navy. They can get you trained an eventually give you an aircraft commander designation but if you fly with anyone senior to you they will be the AC unless you happen to be an IP and are conducting an IP flight.

Now at least in CG regs, and it seems Navy regs as well, the OPS boss can designate a junior AC to be the AC over a senior pilot for a flight, but it isn't the norm. Since only 30 warrants are supposed to be made then the majority of the time, they will be flying with someone more senior. This is the crux of what I meant in my original post. In order for this to work there will have to be an institutional change on how an AC is chosen.

Heck, the problem is inherent now with just commissioned pilots. Many don't actually sign for an aircraft for quite sometime after being designated as an AC. But they eventually become more senior and sign for more and more missions. A warrant officer won't have that opportunity.

 

[zab1001]

Eventually the CWOs will qual as ACs and be paired with unquall'ed URL guys (still in the syllabus for PPC) as their 2Ps and 3Ps.

I've had plenty of hops as PPC with guys senior to me (in rank) as my 2P, since they were still in the process of getting quall'ed (prior SWOs) or re-quall'ed (new O-4 DHs just checking in to the squadron).