One other factor that I forgot to point out is that the union hired two consultants. Thay BOTH said to accept this offer , but being the brilliant economists, historians, meteorologists, psychologist, and any and eveything you wanted to know about life our genius board of directors(PILOTS) said no, we dont like what you're giving us, so we will have a second motion to vote for a rejectance of the current proposal. We may have the best pilots in the industry, but for Gods sake please dont ever take financial advice from a pilot. Anyone, please reply to why you think that we as a pilot group should not accept this offer and please list your credentials(Masters in Finance,ie.) as well as the rest of the "IAP"sayers why anyone would reject this offer. Let me remind everyone the current contract is valid through 9/04. This is an extesion with a raise for two years, and if anyone can tell me what the economy will be in the next few years, you'll should be on Wallstreet.
Current contract proposal SWA
- Thread starter falcon20
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tredding@swa
SWA F/O
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Why should anyone who "thinks" they can predict the future be "on Wall Street"??? Haven't those on Wall Street proven that they too have NO clue about the future????
Falcon-
Be sure to cast your vote for the Koolie candidates in the upcoming union election...that is if you've been around long enough to be eligible to vote. That is the most you can do to ensure that the most profitable airline in the world will continue to pay less than ATA while providing laughably substandard retirement benefits, work rules, reserve system, etc. etc. to its "loyal employees". Of course, all of that could be fixed via a section 6 negotiation starting in 12 mos. Or did you fall for the "Super Mediation" sham? The language contained in the ICO is legally worthless. You did a fine job of supporting your own hypothesis. Some pilots don't know sh1t and should just shut the f**k up. There is no need for the man to keep us down. We keep doing it to ourselves.
Be sure to cast your vote for the Koolie candidates in the upcoming union election...that is if you've been around long enough to be eligible to vote. That is the most you can do to ensure that the most profitable airline in the world will continue to pay less than ATA while providing laughably substandard retirement benefits, work rules, reserve system, etc. etc. to its "loyal employees". Of course, all of that could be fixed via a section 6 negotiation starting in 12 mos. Or did you fall for the "Super Mediation" sham? The language contained in the ICO is legally worthless. You did a fine job of supporting your own hypothesis. Some pilots don't know sh1t and should just shut the f**k up. There is no need for the man to keep us down. We keep doing it to ourselves.
Now What...
So if indeed the SWAPA vote was in favor what does that mean ??? Will the much anticipated explosive growth of 02/03 start soon ??? Can we expect the glory days of 2 classes per month for the next 12-15 months ??? Those in the know please responds via your somewhat muddied crystal balls, so to speak...
Any and all rumors gladly accepted...
"Krunch"
So if indeed the SWAPA vote was in favor what does that mean ??? Will the much anticipated explosive growth of 02/03 start soon ??? Can we expect the glory days of 2 classes per month for the next 12-15 months ??? Those in the know please responds via your somewhat muddied crystal balls, so to speak...
Any and all rumors gladly accepted...
"Krunch"
luv2fly
SWA FO
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Great Attitude
XNAV,
Great Attitude!! I can't wait to fly with you for a month. The good news is that I will because the majority of pilots, at the best airline in the world, realized and spoke on what was best for the Airline and for them. Growth and expansion will continue. Not to say that it wouldn't without acceptance of the proposal, but IMO there are too many pilots with your attitude that are willing to drive a stake into the heart of the Golden Goose by expecting and demanding things with a completely self-serving view. SWA didn't get to where it is by its great pilots making emotional decisions with only themselves in mind. Don't get me wrong either, I want the highest pay and best work rules available as well, but I believe in the long term growth, expansion and overall company strength even more.
Fly safe!
XNAV,
Great Attitude!! I can't wait to fly with you for a month. The good news is that I will because the majority of pilots, at the best airline in the world, realized and spoke on what was best for the Airline and for them. Growth and expansion will continue. Not to say that it wouldn't without acceptance of the proposal, but IMO there are too many pilots with your attitude that are willing to drive a stake into the heart of the Golden Goose by expecting and demanding things with a completely self-serving view. SWA didn't get to where it is by its great pilots making emotional decisions with only themselves in mind. Don't get me wrong either, I want the highest pay and best work rules available as well, but I believe in the long term growth, expansion and overall company strength even more.
Fly safe!
luv2fly,
By voting yes for this offer the pilots at SWA proved they are nothing more than a spineless group of DOORMATS! Shut up with the Golden Goose crap, SWA wanted you and everyone else as cheap as they could get you, and over and over again you give it to them. If anyone has a self serving view it's SWA management, do you actually think they luv you, and care about your well being?(If they really felt that, they would want you to have better pay and benefits).
Remember:Herb only likes you when you are working for him!
By voting yes for this offer the pilots at SWA proved they are nothing more than a spineless group of DOORMATS! Shut up with the Golden Goose crap, SWA wanted you and everyone else as cheap as they could get you, and over and over again you give it to them. If anyone has a self serving view it's SWA management, do you actually think they luv you, and care about your well being?(If they really felt that, they would want you to have better pay and benefits).
Remember:Herb only likes you when you are working for him!
luv2bone-
It may take awhile for the Kool-Aid to wear off (maybe longer for you) but it will and you'll realize your wife and kids may love you but the company most certainly does not. ATA has 59 jets and has never made much money. SWA is the most profitable airline in the world. ATA 73 pilots make more than we do. Does that seem fair to you? If asking for industry AVERAGE compensation is self-serving and attempting to kill the goose, then I admit it, I am a greedy goose-killing SOB.
It may take awhile for the Kool-Aid to wear off (maybe longer for you) but it will and you'll realize your wife and kids may love you but the company most certainly does not. ATA has 59 jets and has never made much money. SWA is the most profitable airline in the world. ATA 73 pilots make more than we do. Does that seem fair to you? If asking for industry AVERAGE compensation is self-serving and attempting to kill the goose, then I admit it, I am a greedy goose-killing SOB.
xnav, jetspeed
I am a little confused? Jetspeed, are you currently with an airline right now? It is obvious that you have SWA envy. I bet you are probably furloughed by one of your money hungry unions right now. It especially does not surprise me that you are a fighter jock. You guys never have been able to see the big picture. Like I said in a previous reply. You take the money now and then renegotiate in 2 years (when and IF) the economy is better. Why on earth would you just settle for the current contract for 2 more years???? Only a smart person would except that. Guess that leave you out!
XNAV, it does appear that you are with SWA--so what gives?
All the other airlines are falling apart and you complain about a new contract? Guess you are not a finance major
When the other airlines folds up shop...please don't call SWA jetspeed!
I am a little confused? Jetspeed, are you currently with an airline right now? It is obvious that you have SWA envy. I bet you are probably furloughed by one of your money hungry unions right now. It especially does not surprise me that you are a fighter jock. You guys never have been able to see the big picture. Like I said in a previous reply. You take the money now and then renegotiate in 2 years (when and IF) the economy is better. Why on earth would you just settle for the current contract for 2 more years???? Only a smart person would except that. Guess that leave you out!
XNAV, it does appear that you are with SWA--so what gives?
All the other airlines are falling apart and you complain about a new contract? Guess you are not a finance major
When the other airlines folds up shop...please don't call SWA jetspeed!
NYRANGERS
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Re: xnav, jetspeed
[Soupbone said
. You take the money now and then renegotiate in 2 years (when and IF) the economy is better. Why on earth would you just settle for the current contract for 2 more years???? Only a smart person would except that. Guess that leave you out!
XNAV, it does appear that you are with SWA--so what gives?
All the other airlines are falling apart and you complain about a new contract? Guess you are not a finance major
When the other airlines folds up shop...please don't call SWA jetspeed! [/B][/QUOTE]
2 years? I think you just extended your contract for 2 years. Meaning expires in 2006 insted of 2004.
[Soupbone said
. You take the money now and then renegotiate in 2 years (when and IF) the economy is better. Why on earth would you just settle for the current contract for 2 more years???? Only a smart person would except that. Guess that leave you out!
XNAV, it does appear that you are with SWA--so what gives?
All the other airlines are falling apart and you complain about a new contract? Guess you are not a finance major
When the other airlines folds up shop...please don't call SWA jetspeed! [/B][/QUOTE]
2 years? I think you just extended your contract for 2 years. Meaning expires in 2006 insted of 2004.
fighter pilots
Please forgive my remark. I meant nothing personal towards fighter pilots in general. I personally know many of them and they are exceptional people.
It is just this menatallity that I have been seeing on this web sight over the past couple of weeks>> Pilots mad at SWA pilots, pilots of all airlines yelling back and forth. Amazing. We all do the very thing we love yet with totally different perspectives. Like I have read in the AA threads>>please don't ask pilots for financial advice. Yes NYRANGERS, it is a 2 year extension, but you renegotiate just like SWA pilots are doing now...2 years early. Therefore, if the trouble is all behind us and the economy does some miracle turnaround...the pilot union seeks a new contract in 2 years! So in other words...take the money and run and in 2 years you are already working from a higher advantage point!
Please forgive my remark. I meant nothing personal towards fighter pilots in general. I personally know many of them and they are exceptional people.
It is just this menatallity that I have been seeing on this web sight over the past couple of weeks>> Pilots mad at SWA pilots, pilots of all airlines yelling back and forth. Amazing. We all do the very thing we love yet with totally different perspectives. Like I have read in the AA threads>>please don't ask pilots for financial advice. Yes NYRANGERS, it is a 2 year extension, but you renegotiate just like SWA pilots are doing now...2 years early. Therefore, if the trouble is all behind us and the economy does some miracle turnaround...the pilot union seeks a new contract in 2 years! So in other words...take the money and run and in 2 years you are already working from a higher advantage point!
Soupbone,
I am with an airline right now and it is SWA. You said money hungry unions, you seem to forget if it wasn't for unions you would have none of the benefits that you have today, go to your history books. Have you been watching the news? If you ask me the CEO's are the money hungry one's. What makes you think the CEO of SWA wouldn't be capable of that? A first year FO at SWA TAKES HOME $1295.00 on the 5th and roughly 1600.00 on the 20th of the month, try living on that in Baltimore Maryland or Oakland California. The money hungry union was not asking to break the company they were asking for industry AVERAGE pay. Pay was not the only issue in this interim contract. Benefits are weak, scheduling issues and reserve issues etc. If you are on the outside looking in educate yourself on the issues before sounding off. Southwest airlines did not become profitable just because of the people at the top, they seem to forget that, and they used the vulnerabilities of the other airlines to get what they wanted this time. There is no guarantee that pilots at SWA will be secure in their jobs. Noone can guarantee anyone that. Remember SWA does not sign one day over 1 year on a lease at a new city until they know they can make a profit, pretty smart move, but a 10 year contract by the pilots was just extended to 12 years. The only thing you should sign for that long is a mortgage, but I'm sure in 2006 Jim Parker will be there to show his appreciation, but then again in late 2004 don't be suprised if he is trying to negotiate yet another extension to an already weak and long 10 year "living contract", extending it until 2008. This is just business, if you have no experience here it is not all fun and games at SWA, it's just like any other business-ITS A JOB!
I am with an airline right now and it is SWA. You said money hungry unions, you seem to forget if it wasn't for unions you would have none of the benefits that you have today, go to your history books. Have you been watching the news? If you ask me the CEO's are the money hungry one's. What makes you think the CEO of SWA wouldn't be capable of that? A first year FO at SWA TAKES HOME $1295.00 on the 5th and roughly 1600.00 on the 20th of the month, try living on that in Baltimore Maryland or Oakland California. The money hungry union was not asking to break the company they were asking for industry AVERAGE pay. Pay was not the only issue in this interim contract. Benefits are weak, scheduling issues and reserve issues etc. If you are on the outside looking in educate yourself on the issues before sounding off. Southwest airlines did not become profitable just because of the people at the top, they seem to forget that, and they used the vulnerabilities of the other airlines to get what they wanted this time. There is no guarantee that pilots at SWA will be secure in their jobs. Noone can guarantee anyone that. Remember SWA does not sign one day over 1 year on a lease at a new city until they know they can make a profit, pretty smart move, but a 10 year contract by the pilots was just extended to 12 years. The only thing you should sign for that long is a mortgage, but I'm sure in 2006 Jim Parker will be there to show his appreciation, but then again in late 2004 don't be suprised if he is trying to negotiate yet another extension to an already weak and long 10 year "living contract", extending it until 2008. This is just business, if you have no experience here it is not all fun and games at SWA, it's just like any other business-ITS A JOB!
dgs
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As somebody who interviewed at both SWA and jetBlue, I can tell you that all this negative energy from pilots within SWA just reaffirms my decision to go with JB. Those of you within the company, and particulary those of you who accept money from people to prep them for interviews, should realize the effect you are having on your potential new hires. Do you want people next to you in the cockpit who are eager to have fun flying an airplane, or who just want "industry leading 737 wages" and their share of the profits? It seems like you are getting away from some of the values that made you so successful in the past--and which could ensure your success in the future.
I thank God every day for the opportunity to work for a company with inspired leadership who truly appreciates their employees and our contributions to the bottom line. While we would all appreciate a little more change in our pocket, I don't think you'll find anybody at JB whining about our wages for a couple of reasons. 1) The compensation package goes beyond the hourly pay scales and could make us all wealthy beyond our wildest dream if WE continue to make this airline a success. If we're happy and make the customers happy, they'll make us happy again by returning for more business. 2) Management has continued so show LEADERSHIP in providing fair pay raises and other compensation. How many other companies have received unsolicited pay raises since 9/11? I suspect we'll see another one before the year is over. Why do they do that? See reason #1... If we're happy and make the customers happy...
I'm often asked how JB can be successful when all the other airlines are struggling. There are lots of reasons, but the one theme that is central to our company is providing the customer with the jetBlue experience. Make them happy. Build their loyalty. Make them want to come back again and again...and tell their friends to come back again and again. The planes fill up with paying passengers and we all make money. And we are all HAPPY along the way. It seems simple, but it works. (Don't you frequent stores where you get outstanding customer service?) Put yourself in your passenger's shoes. Which airline would you prefer to fly--one that makes you happy to be there, or one that makes you happy to be outta there?
In these times of massive furloughs, many of my friends who once flew the skies in the job of their dreams are now flying desks and wondering how many years it will be before they can return to the air. I, for one, count my blessings daily. After logging more hours than I cared to at a desk, I'm thrilled to be flying for a living. Next time you wish for more than you have, think about those who wish for the opportunity to have what you have. Many of them visit this forum and dream about the day they can have the job you may now take for granted.
When I was offered an interview with SWA I was pretty enthusiastic about the opportunity to work for a "fun" company. I posted something to that effect on the previous version of this forum and was flamed by SWA employees for my enthusiasm. I suspect I'll get some flames from this post, as well. Fortunately, in the final analysis, a smile comes to my face every day I put on the blue shirt--looking forward to living the dream of flying for a living and having fun!!! That's what I wanted to do for the rest of my working career and jetBlue is fulfilling that dream for me!! Please don't get me wrong. I'm not trying to gloat in my success. I know how fragile it is. I'm simply trying to encourage everybody to be thankful for what they have and look at the glass half full.
I thank God every day for the opportunity to work for a company with inspired leadership who truly appreciates their employees and our contributions to the bottom line. While we would all appreciate a little more change in our pocket, I don't think you'll find anybody at JB whining about our wages for a couple of reasons. 1) The compensation package goes beyond the hourly pay scales and could make us all wealthy beyond our wildest dream if WE continue to make this airline a success. If we're happy and make the customers happy, they'll make us happy again by returning for more business. 2) Management has continued so show LEADERSHIP in providing fair pay raises and other compensation. How many other companies have received unsolicited pay raises since 9/11? I suspect we'll see another one before the year is over. Why do they do that? See reason #1... If we're happy and make the customers happy...
I'm often asked how JB can be successful when all the other airlines are struggling. There are lots of reasons, but the one theme that is central to our company is providing the customer with the jetBlue experience. Make them happy. Build their loyalty. Make them want to come back again and again...and tell their friends to come back again and again. The planes fill up with paying passengers and we all make money. And we are all HAPPY along the way. It seems simple, but it works. (Don't you frequent stores where you get outstanding customer service?) Put yourself in your passenger's shoes. Which airline would you prefer to fly--one that makes you happy to be there, or one that makes you happy to be outta there?
In these times of massive furloughs, many of my friends who once flew the skies in the job of their dreams are now flying desks and wondering how many years it will be before they can return to the air. I, for one, count my blessings daily. After logging more hours than I cared to at a desk, I'm thrilled to be flying for a living. Next time you wish for more than you have, think about those who wish for the opportunity to have what you have. Many of them visit this forum and dream about the day they can have the job you may now take for granted.
When I was offered an interview with SWA I was pretty enthusiastic about the opportunity to work for a "fun" company. I posted something to that effect on the previous version of this forum and was flamed by SWA employees for my enthusiasm. I suspect I'll get some flames from this post, as well. Fortunately, in the final analysis, a smile comes to my face every day I put on the blue shirt--looking forward to living the dream of flying for a living and having fun!!! That's what I wanted to do for the rest of my working career and jetBlue is fulfilling that dream for me!! Please don't get me wrong. I'm not trying to gloat in my success. I know how fragile it is. I'm simply trying to encourage everybody to be thankful for what they have and look at the glass half full.
rodeopilot
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Hey jetblue driver,
Glad youre having fun and feeling the love of management. I would love to hear your view when JB has 360 Airplanes and three to five solid unions to negotiate with. Also lump that in with payments on all of your airplanes and go figure, youll be just like Southwest(only with tv's, and a less tacky paint job). I wouldnt say that our raise was unsolicited, but management agreed to open a negotiation with the pilots prior to the ten year agreements end to boost our benefits and secure costs for future growth in a low margin environment. I dont see how thats a bad thing(and I voted no). Southwest has its eye on making the airport experience more convenient with new methods of check-in that reduce wait times at the terminal. Southwest has an eye on the competition(including you). I would say that the management here has a million copies of The Art of War and reads it every night before bed. They are ready to compete anywhere. They were born in a fight for the survival of this company. Southwest is still an awesome place to work(even though I voted no), I still have an excellent time on my trips. I have great overnights, and fly with excellent flight attendants. Our Mechanics are second to none. Every employee group gets along very well, so do the Unions. I would not say that things here are so bad, or bad at all, we just wanted better. Thats the American way. What you are hearing from here is a vocal group that is obviously in the minority considering the vote that passed yesterday. Even in the minority no vote there are people that still love to work at Southwest. I voted no(I think I mentioned that a few times) because the real issues that have affected me the most in the past couple of years were not addressed in the extension. We didnt raise the bar, or help our brothers that are looking at concessions any either. I dont think you can say it is greed to expect to be paid an industry average salary when you are an industry leader. You may have made a good choice going to jetblue(if it works for you thats all that matters), but you cant say that what you hear on this board, and from a few vocal pilots(which we know are all vested in the pure facts of every issue) that SWA is not a great place to work. Good luck at JB, you are working alongside good people.
Glad youre having fun and feeling the love of management. I would love to hear your view when JB has 360 Airplanes and three to five solid unions to negotiate with. Also lump that in with payments on all of your airplanes and go figure, youll be just like Southwest(only with tv's, and a less tacky paint job). I wouldnt say that our raise was unsolicited, but management agreed to open a negotiation with the pilots prior to the ten year agreements end to boost our benefits and secure costs for future growth in a low margin environment. I dont see how thats a bad thing(and I voted no). Southwest has its eye on making the airport experience more convenient with new methods of check-in that reduce wait times at the terminal. Southwest has an eye on the competition(including you). I would say that the management here has a million copies of The Art of War and reads it every night before bed. They are ready to compete anywhere. They were born in a fight for the survival of this company. Southwest is still an awesome place to work(even though I voted no), I still have an excellent time on my trips. I have great overnights, and fly with excellent flight attendants. Our Mechanics are second to none. Every employee group gets along very well, so do the Unions. I would not say that things here are so bad, or bad at all, we just wanted better. Thats the American way. What you are hearing from here is a vocal group that is obviously in the minority considering the vote that passed yesterday. Even in the minority no vote there are people that still love to work at Southwest. I voted no(I think I mentioned that a few times) because the real issues that have affected me the most in the past couple of years were not addressed in the extension. We didnt raise the bar, or help our brothers that are looking at concessions any either. I dont think you can say it is greed to expect to be paid an industry average salary when you are an industry leader. You may have made a good choice going to jetblue(if it works for you thats all that matters), but you cant say that what you hear on this board, and from a few vocal pilots(which we know are all vested in the pure facts of every issue) that SWA is not a great place to work. Good luck at JB, you are working alongside good people.
SWA/FO
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You can't compare a company with 15-20 airplanes + 300 pilots ?(JBLU) with a company of 370 airplanes + 4200 pilots.. everybody has different views. You got the old guys, with nothing to lose and you have the young guys that are always comparing themselves with their buddies at DAL, UAL and AA. (Well maybe there is not so much of that going on right now?)
Big three = Cutbacks, Furloughs.. Captain upgrade 10-15 years
SWA = Growth, Stability...Captain upgrade 4-6 years
I'm glad voter turn out was good with our vote.
I still remember where I use to work before SWA and SWA is 1000% better. *Of course, no employer is as good as JBLU and I hope that SWA can borrow (back) some of their ideas to help us build more revenue....
Big three = Cutbacks, Furloughs.. Captain upgrade 10-15 years
SWA = Growth, Stability...Captain upgrade 4-6 years
I'm glad voter turn out was good with our vote.
I still remember where I use to work before SWA and SWA is 1000% better. *Of course, no employer is as good as JBLU and I hope that SWA can borrow (back) some of their ideas to help us build more revenue....
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jball2
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- nuff
I would just like to reiterate what rodeopilot said about our whiners.
The ugly noise you hear is from a very vocal, very small, minority. I too believe there are many unresolved issues in the interim agreement but I could not vote (probation) and it doesn't matter anymore.
I do know that every friend of mine at USAir is furloughed, and most of the ones who went to United and Delta and American are as well. Certainly not gloating as they are my dear friends. I am just happy, like 99% of my coworkers at SWA, to be at SWA where I feel my career is secure.
As for Jet Blue, I have several friends over there and they love it. Thanks for the jumpseat rides from OAK to IAD!
The ugly noise you hear is from a very vocal, very small, minority. I too believe there are many unresolved issues in the interim agreement but I could not vote (probation) and it doesn't matter anymore.
I do know that every friend of mine at USAir is furloughed, and most of the ones who went to United and Delta and American are as well. Certainly not gloating as they are my dear friends. I am just happy, like 99% of my coworkers at SWA, to be at SWA where I feel my career is secure.
As for Jet Blue, I have several friends over there and they love it. Thanks for the jumpseat rides from OAK to IAD!
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