Crosswinds with flaps

[Mickey]

I watched a pilot almost crash because he decided to land with flaps 0. There was a six to seven knot crosswind and he learned that it was easier to land in a crosswind with less flaps, well he decided to go all the way with less and use 0. As we watched him float down the 3500' runway we all started yelling go around(I doubt he heard us , he finally added power and started a go around at the far end near the trees and then almost stalled it, we now were all yelling get your nose down. He made it, came around and did a landing with flaps that was uneventful. I feel pilots should learn how to properly control their airplanes in the first place before they have to start using "tricks" that make flying easier. I agree that there are times when landing with less than full flaps are desireable, however, going all the way to flaps 0 makes the landing longer and the length of time that the pilot has to apply correct crosswind correction longer too. This I have witnessed prolongs the time for the pilot to screw up. Without gusts I have found it easy to land quite a few different airplanes at their max. demonstrated crosswind components with full flaps. On very gusty days I like to use one notch less than full. A lot of the Cessnas do great in gusty crosswinds with flaps 20. If you have have to go with less, that is probably one of those days your passengers probabley didn't want to go in the first place.

In the ERJ it is quite normal to land with flaps 22 when you are heavy and there are gusts. This has nothing to do with crosswinds. If you add 1/2 the gust factor to your ref speed which will also raise your approach speed and this is higher than Vfe45 than you are REQUIRED to land flaps 22. This is not in the QRH but, in the SOP. We have speeds and performance for landing flaps 22. I'm not a test pilot but, one of my friends actually is.

Good luck and take care.

 

[Mickey]

Three pointers. There is a flying club here with a C182 and one of their instructors seems to be professing the 'land with with less flaps' is easier ideology. I tought several privates in C182s and would always tell them to watch when the club C182 was landing. They had smooth touch downs but, usually at high speeds and we saw quite a few three pointers, wheel barrows and skids as they made the same turn off the Citations used. It's harder to get a smooth landing with full flaps because of the steeper approach angle but, skill prevails. Practice properly and fly properly. I've had a lot of instrument students who flew worse than my pre solo students. They all seemed to stop trying after they passed their private check ride and started to find "tricks" to make flying easier.
Take care.

 

[Deftone45075]

not necessarily.

Bad technique makes your landing longer. An I would hardly consider using less flaps in high winds a "trick". It is approved and recomended. Plus the increased wind will slow your ground speed considerably making up for an increase in approach speed, so actually flying a little faster will give you the benefit of increased control effectiveness without increasing your lading distance.

I agree. High wing airplanes should actually be better than low wings in crosswinds. The reason being low wings can wash out the rudder and elevators.

Only if you flare the sh!t out of a low wing airplane. Otherwise you won't come anywhere near washing out the tail. And the win will be lower to the ground allowing less room for wind to get underneath it on the rollout. High wings are worse for this reason. Again, i would't necessarily use NO flaps, but having full flaps out on a windy day with a strong gusty crosswind will spell problems on the roll out.

 

[172driver]

Why would a no flap landing be flatter than a full flap landing? Seems to me that no flaps would allow a higher pitch attitude to get the same AOA out of the airplane. Thus, less flaps equals less flat.

Think of it this way...is the nose higher in slow flight with or without flaps?

Anyone can land flat in any configuration if they just set it down. It all comes down to technique.

 

[IAHERJ]

30 knots of x-wind on the ERJ is tough with 45 (full) flaps. I've used 22 plenty and the max speed for 22 is 200 KIAS meaning you can fly the beast pretty fast right down to the #'s. You just need to know what you've got under your wheels when you hit. 160 KIAS on the touchdown is dooable in an ERJ but you will need full reverse and brakes to get it stopped in less than 6,000 feet. My company is getting pretty worked up about this 22 degree landing stuff and for good reason. The important thing to think about is length of runway and condition of runway along with the X-wind and gust factor when determining the flap setting for landing.

This goes for the Cessna's as well. Gusty winds might make lining up on final and keeping it on centerline a bit easier at flaps 10 or no flaps. However you might have a 2500 foot runway with trees on both ends and you might float too much if you carry too much speed in at flaps 0. Get to know your plane regardless of size and try new tricks now and then. Just be sure you have the margain of error to play with. Especially if my family is on board.

 

[bobbysamd]

Cessna crosswind landings

I watched a pilot almost crash because he decided to land with flaps 0. There was a six to seven knot crosswind and he learned that it was easier to land in a crosswind with less flaps, well he decided to go all the way with less and use 0.

Frankly, I don't believe that seven knots of crosswind is much at all. It's not enough to warrant landing a Cessna with zero flaps. 20 degrees max works just fine with a 7-kt crosswind.

If you have 10-15 kts straight across the runway you use zero flaps in a Cessna. And make sure your runway is long enough. No, I would not consider landing the airplane in that configuration on a 2500-foot runway.

 

[Jet_Dreamer]

All the ideas posted here seem reasonable. But the main thing to worry about during a crosswind landing would be a better use of rudder control. Sure less flaps can be used, but i would not recommend 0 flaps. In my opinion it would be wise to think about how much rudder you are using during a xwind landing and not just your flap setting.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Jet_Dreamer said
In my opinion it would be wise to think about how much rudder you are using during a crosswind landing and not just your flap setting.

"Thinking" about "how much" rudder (or aileron) to use is not a particularly good idea.

For me. the "thinking" for crosswind landings comes down to two items:

1. As I flare and touchdown*, I must keep the centerline between my feet using aileron and my chest square with the centerline using rudder.

2. As I touchdown, I must release rudder pressure (assuming a steerable nosewheel) so that when the nosewheel touches, I don't turn, and bring in my full aileron taxi correction.

* I take no position on any particular point for the transition to the crosswind slip position ("slip all the way down" v. "crab & kick").

 

[DoinTime]

I know of many ERJ pilots who use 22 flaps for landing in gusty winds. It has come to the point of check airman actually teaching new pilots this technique. But the only place in the POH that says you can land like this is the Abnormal Checklist for flap failure. Sure you still have plenty of runway to work but if a Fed came up to you and asked, "how did you determine your landing distance?", are you going to quote him numbers from the QRH? At this point you better have a write up in the can for the flaps not going all the way to 45!

Wasn't the use of flaps 22 one of the contributing factors to that COEX ERJ going off the end of the runway in EWR awhile back? Doesn't sound like such a great technique to me.

 

[IAHERJ]

We've never had an ERJ go off the runway at EWR. Your comment lost all credibility after that inaccurate statement.

 

[DoinTime]

Was it CLE then? I don't remember and I don't really care. The only thing that matters is that your line pilots have adopted an abnormal procedure for normal operations and it resulted in hull damage. I didn't see anyone else go off the runway that day.

 

[gopherflight]

30 knots of x-wind on the ERJ is tough with 45 (full) flaps. I've used 22 plenty and the max speed for 22 is 200 KIAS meaning you can fly the beast pretty fast right down to the #'s. You just need to know what you've got under your wheels when you hit. 160 KIAS on the touchdown is dooable in an ERJ but you will need full reverse and brakes to get it stopped in less than 6,000 feet.

This is the menatality that forms the weakest link the the proverbial accident chain. Touchdown at 160 KIAS and the reversers don't work, then what? The ERJ landing performance was certified with brakes only. You've just become a test pilot. If it's too much crosswind, GO AROUND! Unless you are out of gas or N1 on both engines = 0, you don't have to land there! This falls in the same category of pilots high-speeding it to 300-400 ft then loading up about 2g on the airplane to bleed off airspeed dropping everything out then dive back down towards the runway! Forget the concept of a stabilized approach!

 

[JRSLim]

Conditions and experience.

Crosswind landings are, to a point, going to depend on the situation/pilot/aircraft. I go by the POH first, next by my training and then by the situation. I make standard approaches with regular flap setting in most crosswinds, and I haven't had any issues with this so far. In much higher winds in general I use half flaps. Although I rarely use 0 flaps I don't see where this would cause a flat landing - that is up to the pilot. And, as mentioned, you need to take into consideration the field situation.

Shaun

 

[A Squared]

OK, I got curious about this alleged overrun and had a look at the NTSB database.

Continental Express did indeed put one off the end at Cleveland. Here's the link:

http://www.ntsb.gov/NTSB/brief.asp?ev_id=20030109X00039&key=1


According to the brief, they touched down at 150 knots with 1800 feet remaining of a 6800 foot runway. Ok, if it takes full reverse, full brakes, and 6000 feet to get stopped from 160 knots, what exactly did this guy have planned at 150 knots and 1800 feet of pavement in front of him?

Hmmmmm..... maybe this 200 kt to the numbers, 160 kt, 22 flap touchdown isn't such a nifty idea after all.

regards

 

[TDTURBO]

Generally, flaps aren't used in crosswind landings since they make the aircraft more difficult to handle with crosswind control inputs. Also, on touchdown, extended flaps give the wind a chance to pick up the plane again and push the aircraft sideways because of the increased lift. Less flaps means more weight transfer to the gear and better breaking.

With regard to high wing, it's easier for the wind to get under the wing, making it less stable than a low wing. You have more rudder effectiveness do to the higher approach speeds enabling higher crosswind components.

The flight characteristic of a high wing aircraft is to float-the low wing settles more quickly. The more you float, the greater the chance of losing control.

Generally, the farther spaced apart the landing gear, the higher the demonstrated crosswind component. The landing gear in high wings is attached to the fuselage making it narrower than the wing mounted low wing gear. Also, once on the ground, the long spring gear generally used on high wings is less stable than short, fixed gear.

There shouldn't be a debate about flap usage in high wing airplanes, using flaps10 or less is proven accepted practice. Any other way should be done with past confidence in your skills, ability, experience and the type of aircraft you’re flying.

I rarely use flaps in my 182 and never land flat or long, but that’s what I do all the time and it works for me.