Crossing restriction question

[M-crit]

You've received instructions to descend via the "ABC" arrival. The arrival says to cross "XYZ" intersection at 250 kts and 15,000 ft. 15 miles before the fix ATC says "descend and maintain 10,000." Does this mean you can negate the altitude and speed at the crossing restriction? Or just the altitude? Please include reference sources if possible.

 

[viper548]

I always comply with the speed restrictions in that situation

 

[Soverytired]

You've received instructions to descend via the "ABC" arrival. The arrival says to cross "XYZ" intersection at 250 kts and 15,000 ft. 15 miles before the fix ATC says "descend and maintain 10,000." Does this mean you can negate the altitude and speed at the crossing restriction? Or just the altitude? Please include reference sources if possible.

You can descend to 10,000 feet without restriction (i.e., normal rate descent, crossing restriction for XYZ altitudes no longer applies.) This negates the altitude crossing restriction.

However, you must still cross "XYX" at 250 kts.

Now, get ready for 10 different opinions on the subejct. Sorry for lack of references, but I forgot to memorize every FAR and FAA government handout!

 

[Erlanger]

You can descend to 10,000 feet without restriction (i.e., normal rate descent, crossing restriction for XYZ altitudes no longer applies.) This negates the altitude crossing restriction.

However, you must still cross "XYX" at 250 kts.

Now, get ready for 10 different opinions on the subejct. Sorry for lack of references, but I forgot to memorize every FAR and FAA government handout!

There shouldn't be 10 different opinions on this matter. You're 100% correct with your answer.

 

[Poahi]

If you were issued a 'descend via' clearance and subsequently given a 'descend and maintain' clearance, the altitude clearance doesn't cancel the speed restrictions prescribed per the arrival.

 

[Axel]

§ 91.123 Compliance with ATC clearances and instructions.

(a) When an ATC clearance has been obtained, no pilot in command may deviate from that clearance unless an amended clearance is obtained, an emergency exists, or the deviation is in response to a traffic alert and collision avoidance system resolution advisory. However, except in Class A airspace, a pilot may cancel an IFR flight plan if the operation is being conducted in VFR weather conditions. When a pilot is uncertain of an ATC clearance, that pilot shall immediately request clarification from ATC.

................

 

[Flyer1015]

When in doubt, just ask.

Any Captain who tells you "well we dont want to sound dumb".... tell him that I'd rather sound dumb than do something dumb and get violated.

 

[Stifler's Mom]

Sounding dumb for 5 seconds takes alot less time than filling out a NASA form.

 

[Poahi]

Sounding dumb for 5 seconds takes alot less time than filling out a NASA form.

Or you could look it up....

ALPA has a publication on this and you can look it up in the AIM as well.

http://www.faa.gov/airports_airtraffic/air_traffic/publications/ATPubs/AIM/Chap5/aim0504.html

 

[Basil]

From FAA-H-8261-1A Instrument Procedures Handbook:​

Upon your arrival in the terminal area, ATC either clears you to a specific altitude, or they give you a "descend via" clearance that instructs you to follow the altitudes published on the STAR. You are not authorized to leave your last assigned altitude unless specifically cleared to do so. If ATC amends the altitude or route to one that is different from the published procedure, the rest of the charted descent procedure is canceled. ATC will assign you any further route, altitude, or airspeed clearances, as necessary.

 

[Ben Johnson]

no matter how simple it seems, when your in doubt, when the other dude is in doubt and you know your right... ask... controllers do not like confusion... they would rather you ask. i have a phone number for you to call is a something they don't want to say and you don't want to hear

 

[Max Q]

Fortunately in my career thus far, I have never had to work with another pilot who was afraid of "sounding dumb".

-Brett

 

[Erlanger]

Here's one for you all that confuses many pilots. You're on an arrival and ATC had previously issued a speed to maintain. They then tell you to resume "normal" speed. You're still on the arrival with speed crossings ahead. What does "resume normal speed" mean?

 

[veneratio]

You've received instructions to descend via the "ABC" arrival. The arrival says to cross "XYZ" intersection at 250 kts and 15,000 ft. 15 miles before the fix ATC says "descend and maintain 10,000." Does this mean you can negate the altitude and speed at the crossing restriction? Or just the altitude? Please include reference sources if possible.

Correct me if I am wrong, but:

The crossing restriction goes out the window you can now just descend to 10,000 using at least 500 fpm. However, as stated before, you must cross the fix at 250 kts, but just verify with center/approach if "they want the speed".

 

[veneratio]

Here's one for you all that confuses many pilots. You're on an arrival and ATC had previously issued a speed to maintain. They then tell you to resume "normal" speed. You're still on the arrival with speed crossings ahead. What does "resume normal speed" mean?

I would assume that (if the speed crossing ahead is CROSS at and not EXPECT to cross at ????) you can speed up to your normal cruising / descend speed for now and than slow down in order to make the speed restriction (to play it safe), however, I would probably ask ATC if they still want me to cross the FIX at the crossing restriction speed.

 

[Erlanger]

I would assume that (if the speed crossing ahead is CROSS at and not EXPECT to cross at ????) you can speed up to your normal cruising / descend speed for now and than slow down in order to make the speed restriction (to play it safe), however, I would probably ask ATC if they still want me to cross the FIX at the crossing restriction speed.

The speed restrictions are hard crossings not "expect". ATC is busy and you can't get a word in to query them. The controller doesn't like to repeat himself anyway since he already just said "resume normal speed". What is he expecting you to do? Saying you will make the speed restriction "to play it safe" is not an acceptable answer.

 

[gator_hater]

He is expecting you to stay with the charted arrival unless he says, "Resume normal speed and delete the speed restriction @ xyz"

 

[Basil]

Pertaining to RNAV STARS....

As for the "AT XXX KIAS" restriction, I feel that it is no different from "CROSS AT 11000"...you cannot, nor do you need to comply with the altitude unless allowed by ATC, as in a "Descend Via" clearance. The other times that the controller specifically assigns the altitude to cross the fix at, they seem to also include the speed.

I wholly agree that it feels a bit strange, and I often ask about the speed if it's not clear.

If this sounds wrong, please cite the reference.

Perhaps a trip over to the ATC Forum is in order..

 

[veneratio]

The speed restrictions are hard crossings not "expect". ATC is busy and you can't get a word in to query them. The controller doesn't like to repeat himself anyway since he already just said "resume normal speed". What is he expecting you to do? Saying you will make the speed restriction "to play it safe" is not an acceptable answer.

? CXR2 Arrival into CLE.
TURBOJETS
EXPECT clearance to cross at 250kt and 10,000.

Therefore I would resume normal speed until I had to go below 10,000 MSL if there was an EXPECT or I would resume normal speed, and than slow to meet the restriction if it states CROSS AT 250kts. I'm not saying it's correct, but that is what I would do.

 

[Erlanger]

As for the "AT XXX KIAS" restriction, I feel that it is no different from "CROSS AT 11000"...you cannot, nor do you need to comply with the altitude unless allowed by ATC, as in a "Descend Via" clearance. The other times that the controller specifically assigns the altitude to cross the fix at, they seem to also include the speed.

I wholly agree that it feels a bit strange, and I often ask about the speed if it's not clear.

If this sounds wrong, please cite the reference.

Perhaps a trip over to the ATC Forum is in order..

It's strange and confusing but you still must comply with the hard speed restrictions unless told otherwise. I'll query the controller in the hope that they're let up keep our speed up.

 

[Erlanger]

? CXR2 Arrival into CLE.
TURBOJETS
EXPECT clearance to cross at 250kt and 10,000.

"Expect" speeds is a different matter. My example was about the hard speed crossing restrictions. Lets assume all the crossings on an arrival are "cross at" and the controller says "resume normal speed".

 

[veneratio]

"Expect" speeds is a different matter. My example was about the hard speed crossing restrictions. Lets assume all the crossings on an arrival are "cross at" and the controller says "resume normal speed".

ohh ok, i c.....

 

[Erlanger]

Now the confusion of what "resume normal speed" means took another turn. These two statements seem conflicting.

The ATC manual says;

An instruction to "resume normal speed" does not delete speed restrictions that are applicable to published procedures of upcoming segments of flight, unless specifically stated by ATC. This does not relieve the pilot of those speed restrictions which are applicable to 14 CFR Section 91.117.

An FAA document that can be viewed here (http://www.faa.gov/other_visit/avia...afety/info/all_infos/media/2007/info07011.pdf) says;

The phraseology “resume normal speed” does not cancel published speed constraints; rather, per Air Traffic Order 7110.65, Air Traffic Control, it cancels speed constraints previously issued by ATC and returns the aircraft to the published speed for the procedure.

Note the highlighted parts of both statements. They sound different to me as what you are suppose to do.

 

[Jack Mehoff]

MESA Sucks......

 

[Max Q]

Why is everyone making this seem difficult? There is no grey area. If established on an arrival and given a speed (maintain, at or above, slow to), regardless of what is published, you adhere to that assignment until told otherwise. If given "resume normal speed", that means follow pulished speed restrictions (if applicable) or clacker if none apply. "Expect to cross at" speed means clacker all the way until ATC assigns you a speed or crossing 10k feet.

-Brett

 

[McNugget]

Here's one for you all that confuses many pilots. You're on an arrival and ATC had previously issued a speed to maintain. They then tell you to resume "normal" speed. You're still on the arrival with speed crossings ahead. What does "resume normal speed" mean?

whatever speed you want. 290....300....320... whatever. Hence normal speed.

just cross that fix on the arrival at whatever speed is printed on the arrival. HOWEVER, if it says expect speed 250 and if ATC did not assign a speed to you at the fix, then its still normal speed.

 

[Cobra17]

Or you could look it up....

ALPA has a publication on this and you can look it up in the AIM as well.

http://www.faa.gov/airports_airtraffic/air_traffic/publications/ATPubs/AIM/Chap5/aim0504.html

Or if you don't happen to carry all those publications in your flight bag....you could simply ask "do you still need the speed restriction?"

Regardless of what the book says, his (or her's) primary concern is sequencing your aircraft.

 

[Booker]

If I may drift the thread a tad, what about altitude restrictions on SIDs, like those in SLC? When there are published crossing restrictions for the climb and ATC issues a "climb and maintain" clearance, does that cancel all intermediate crossing restrictions? I'm more interested in the location of the answer vice the answer itself. (And for what it's worth, SLC ATC often seems peeved when our pilots ask for clarification.)

 

[Erlanger]

If I may drift the thread a tad, what about altitude restrictions on SIDs, like those in SLC? When there are published crossing restrictions for the climb and ATC issues a "climb and maintain" clearance, does that cancel all intermediate crossing restrictions? I'm more interested in the location of the answer vice the answer itself. (And for what it's worth, SLC ATC often seems peeved when our pilots ask for clarification.)

When ATC gives you a "climb and maintain" instruction, that negates all crossing restrictions on the SID as far as altitudes are concerned. From the ATC Handbook it says;

Restating previously issued altitude to “maintain” is an amended clearance. If altitude to “maintain” is changed or restated, whether prior to departure or while airborne, and previously issued altitude restrictions are omitted, altitude restrictions are canceled, including SID/FMSP/STAR altitude restrictions if any.

 

[Speedtape]

If speed is charted--meet the speed requirement.

Giving relief or amending altitude does not change speed limit unless specifically given speed relief.

The speed relief clearance would sound something like "fly normal speed (or some other assigned speed) UNTIL FURTHER ADVISED." If the "UNTIL FURTHER ADVISED" is not given, then you are expected to comply with charted speeds." However, "Expect" is not a clearance either in altitude or speed, until a further clearance is assigned.