Crossing restriction question

[Erlanger]

? CXR2 Arrival into CLE.
TURBOJETS
EXPECT clearance to cross at 250kt and 10,000.

"Expect" speeds is a different matter. My example was about the hard speed crossing restrictions. Lets assume all the crossings on an arrival are "cross at" and the controller says "resume normal speed".

 

[veneratio]

"Expect" speeds is a different matter. My example was about the hard speed crossing restrictions. Lets assume all the crossings on an arrival are "cross at" and the controller says "resume normal speed".

ohh ok, i c.....

 

[Erlanger]

Now the confusion of what "resume normal speed" means took another turn. These two statements seem conflicting.

The ATC manual says;

An instruction to "resume normal speed" does not delete speed restrictions that are applicable to published procedures of upcoming segments of flight, unless specifically stated by ATC. This does not relieve the pilot of those speed restrictions which are applicable to 14 CFR Section 91.117.

An FAA document that can be viewed here (http://www.faa.gov/other_visit/avia...afety/info/all_infos/media/2007/info07011.pdf) says;

The phraseology “resume normal speed” does not cancel published speed constraints; rather, per Air Traffic Order 7110.65, Air Traffic Control, it cancels speed constraints previously issued by ATC and returns the aircraft to the published speed for the procedure.

Note the highlighted parts of both statements. They sound different to me as what you are suppose to do.

 

[Jack Mehoff]

MESA Sucks......

 

[Max Q]

Why is everyone making this seem difficult? There is no grey area. If established on an arrival and given a speed (maintain, at or above, slow to), regardless of what is published, you adhere to that assignment until told otherwise. If given "resume normal speed", that means follow pulished speed restrictions (if applicable) or clacker if none apply. "Expect to cross at" speed means clacker all the way until ATC assigns you a speed or crossing 10k feet.

-Brett

 

[McNugget]

Here's one for you all that confuses many pilots. You're on an arrival and ATC had previously issued a speed to maintain. They then tell you to resume "normal" speed. You're still on the arrival with speed crossings ahead. What does "resume normal speed" mean?

whatever speed you want. 290....300....320... whatever. Hence normal speed.

just cross that fix on the arrival at whatever speed is printed on the arrival. HOWEVER, if it says expect speed 250 and if ATC did not assign a speed to you at the fix, then its still normal speed.

 

[Cobra17]

Or you could look it up....

ALPA has a publication on this and you can look it up in the AIM as well.

http://www.faa.gov/airports_airtraffic/air_traffic/publications/ATPubs/AIM/Chap5/aim0504.html

Or if you don't happen to carry all those publications in your flight bag....you could simply ask "do you still need the speed restriction?"

Regardless of what the book says, his (or her's) primary concern is sequencing your aircraft.

 

[Booker]

If I may drift the thread a tad, what about altitude restrictions on SIDs, like those in SLC? When there are published crossing restrictions for the climb and ATC issues a "climb and maintain" clearance, does that cancel all intermediate crossing restrictions? I'm more interested in the location of the answer vice the answer itself. (And for what it's worth, SLC ATC often seems peeved when our pilots ask for clarification.)

 

[Erlanger]

If I may drift the thread a tad, what about altitude restrictions on SIDs, like those in SLC? When there are published crossing restrictions for the climb and ATC issues a "climb and maintain" clearance, does that cancel all intermediate crossing restrictions? I'm more interested in the location of the answer vice the answer itself. (And for what it's worth, SLC ATC often seems peeved when our pilots ask for clarification.)

When ATC gives you a "climb and maintain" instruction, that negates all crossing restrictions on the SID as far as altitudes are concerned. From the ATC Handbook it says;

Restating previously issued altitude to “maintain” is an amended clearance. If altitude to “maintain” is changed or restated, whether prior to departure or while airborne, and previously issued altitude restrictions are omitted, altitude restrictions are canceled, including SID/FMSP/STAR altitude restrictions if any.

 

[Speedtape]

If speed is charted--meet the speed requirement.

Giving relief or amending altitude does not change speed limit unless specifically given speed relief.

The speed relief clearance would sound something like "fly normal speed (or some other assigned speed) UNTIL FURTHER ADVISED." If the "UNTIL FURTHER ADVISED" is not given, then you are expected to comply with charted speeds." However, "Expect" is not a clearance either in altitude or speed, until a further clearance is assigned.

 

[M-crit]

You've received instructions to descend via the "ABC" arrival. The arrival says to cross "XYZ" intersection at 250 kts and 15,000 ft. 15 miles before the fix ATC says "descend and maintain 10,000." Does this mean you can negate the altitude and speed at the crossing restriction? Or just the altitude? Please include reference sources if possible.

Thanks to all for making this one of the most thread-jacked and confusing responses I could have hoped for. The number of responses that say things such as "I feel," "I assume," or "I think" frightens me.

 

[sweptback]

It's sad that we all call ourselves professional aviators, yet don't know the answers to basic aviation questions.

 

[Speedtape]

It's sad that we all call ourselves professional aviators, yet don't know the answers to basic aviation questions.

We??????

 

[sweptback]

We??????

I was generalizing. Some of us.

 

[Poahi]

It's sad that we all call ourselves professional aviators, yet don't know the answers to basic aviation questions.

To add to that ~~
What's really sad is that some expect ATC to train us.

 

[rtmcfi]

It's sad that we all call ourselves professional aviators, yet don't know the answers to basic aviation questions.

I find it sad that our government does such a poor job diseminating info, and enforcing standards, that threads like these always pop up.