CRJ vs ERJ Type

[dojetdriver]

Sorry double post. Not sure why that keeps hapening.

I spent many hours in CRJ jumpseats in my airline days. I was not particularly impressed one way ot the other, but the CRJ upset brought a lot of things to light that make me like the ERJ far more.

Tough call on that one. Rewind a year and a half. Put two pilots who are deciding to act extremely unprofessional in an LR on an empty repo, the same thing could have happend. Not the exact same scenario, but similar. Worse, put two pilots in an Embraer going into an airport where "a go around is not an option" according to the official report and land it hard, tweaking the back half of the airplane. Pretty sure I've never heard of CRJ getting bent up because of a hard landing. Just because the ERJ came later and is able to take advantage of newer technology doesn't mean it is pilot (idiot) proof.

 

[LegacyDriver]

Tough call on that one. Rewind a year and a half. Put two pilots who are deciding to act extremely unprofessional in an LR on an empty repo, the same thing could have happend. Not the exact same scenario, but similar. Worse, put two pilots in an Embraer going into an airport where "a go around is not an option" according to the official report and land it hard, tweaking the back half of the airplane. Pretty sure I've never heard of CRJ getting bent up because of a hard landing. Just because the ERJ came later and is able to take advantage of newer technology doesn't mean it is pilot (idiot) proof.

Good point and I concede it.

HOWEVER, I doubt the ERJ would have suffered a dual engine flameout and even if it had, I have never heard of an engine seziure in an ERJ akin to that suffered by the CF34 (?), i.e. CRJ engine.

Having trained on the Dornier I would say it did some things better than the ERJ *AND* CRJ.

*salute*

 

[LegacyDriver]

Judging from ALL of you posts, you sound like you have NEVER flown the ERJ. You sound like a 12 year old kid getting all his information off of some website and posting your "research" as experience. The ERJ going to FL390, what the hell was that all about? Comparing the Legacy to a CRJ, WTF. Sorry, but comaring the Legacy to the small Global, or the even the newest Challenger is more of a comparison.

Are you talking about the GLOBAL EXPRESS or the new CHALLENGER 300 (or whatever it was called) that just got renamed? If you are comparing us to the smaller airplane we actually stack up very well. I don't recall all of its numbers offhand but it has a range advantage on us by a bit. It does .83 and we do .80. In the end it costs more per mile than our jet does and doesn't seem as roomy (I got to see on at NBAA and I preferred the EMB).

I'm not a blind EMB lover, by any means. Sorry it sounds like that.

 

[LegacyDriver]

I have flown all of them but the XR. The "P" LRs would go right through the redline with ease.


The only limitations on the Legacy that differ from the 135 are MMO, ceiling, and weight. I compared airliner to airliner.

The XR I believe has the same MMO but I may be wrong.

At any rate, the EMB had better numbers in virtually every area we compared. The CRJ is also artificially restricted now by some companies so its ceiling and speed advantages are negated.

 

[LegacyDriver]

Same wing on the XR as the Legacy thus I presume the 410 margun would be around 100 knots.

We don't push buttons for go around either. There is a detent.


The reduced thrust mode is not something the FADEC/FMS can really know to use without temp, rwy length, wind, obstacles, and weight.

I am sure the FMS can be programmed to know this stuff but it only takes five seconds to look it up and five seconds to set it. And doing the latter is cheaper.

 

[LegacyDriver]

Testing.

I think this thread got big time corrupted.

 

[Cloudroller]

Whats the price tag of the Legacy? I was talking to some Flight Options guys who said they are replacing their old Challengers with them. I am guess for the money it would be tough to beat one.

 

[pianoman]

The two things I wish the Emb had that the CRJ does are the banana bar for BOD and the turb button. Does that thing work as advertised?

I will take the set and forget EMB engines though. mmmm.....detent....

I have a friend who flew the DOJET and he liked the design and the climb speed. Not so much the reliability or the MMO.

The early EMB models have some BIG weight issues. Do you run into those on the CRJ?

 

["GO AROUND"]

The two things I wish the Emb had that the CRJ does are the banana bar for BOD and the turb button. Does that thing work as advertised?

I will take the set and forget EMB engines though. mmmm.....detent....

I have a friend who flew the DOJET and he liked the design and the climb speed. Not so much the reliability or the MMO.

The early EMB models have some BIG weight issues. Do you run into those on the CRJ?

The range to altitude bar is nice, but we also have advisory VNAV that works great. They didn't spend the money for the software upgrade to have full VNAV. The turb button just dampens the autopilot corrections when it gets bumpy. Otherwise the autopilot gets jerky and overcontrols trying to keep the tighter tolerences. It works well and keeps the ride smooth especially up in the 30's.

If Bombardier wanted to increase the cost on the CRJ200 they could put FADEC on it like the 700 and beyond. Right now I am the auto throttles setting power. I remember Embraer trying to get the FADEC(called ECU's) on the Brasillia to work and never could cause of problems. Any of that carry over to the 145?

The CRJ can get into some weight issues now that the FAA has F*cked up the passenger and bag weights for us. We end up having to count carry on bags twice even though only one bag exists. Each pax is weighted as a person and a carry on bag. Our overheads aren't big enough for most rollerbags and they have to be valet checked planeside then counted as an additional bag. The FAA in their stupidity can't grasp the concept that those bags are already in the weight of the pax. So when we have to carry extra fuel for wx pax and bags sometimes get bumped.

I flew the 120 and the only space gain from that to the 145 was the removal of the GCU's so you can now fit a flight case on the side. For us tall folk the CRJ has 3 times as much leg and head room as the ERJ. In the ERJ the seat was full aft and the pedals full forward to just be comfortable and with the CRJ I cant reach the pedals with the seat full aft. I've jumpseated on the 145 and it is far smaller up there than on the CRJ.

Moreover, not having to wear the David Clamps anymore is worth a ton. The noisiest thing in the CRJ are the side vents for the conditioned air compared to the windshield noise in the ERJ. OK, some of our older CRJ's have an annoying whistle when you get above 300-310 kts and I haven't figured out if it's the wipers or what. But, its still quieter than the ERJ.

 

[dojetdriver]

The two things I wish the Emb had that the CRJ does are the banana bar for BOD and the turb button. Does that thing work as advertised?

I will take the set and forget EMB engines though. mmmm.....detent....

I have a friend who flew the DOJET and he liked the design and the climb speed. Not so much the reliability or the MMO.

The EMB engines aren't really "set and forget", You still have to manage speed with your hand even after you've told the FADEC what to do.

The DOJET, what a MX nightmare. The mechanics we had were severly underpaid for the amount of grief they endured just trying to keep them flying. Had Dornier not gone insolvent they, as well as Pratt could have worked the bugs out of the airplane, just like Embraer di.

The climb was incredible, sometimes double what a CRJ/ERJ can do if it was light. When it was heavy is was about like a mid-weight XR. As far as the MMO, yes it was sloooow. We got paid by the hour, doesn't everybody else?

It wasn't meant to compete against the other 50 seat aircraft. It was a replacemenet for the Dash, EMB-120, Saab, J-41, ect. The FADEC's were way ahead of the EMB's, didn't have to tell it temp, ice on or off, or it it was a reduced TO or not. It was V-Nav equipped. Every non-perecision approach was just like an ILS, set thr MDA in the alt pre-select and it would do the rest, except manage speed. If you had to fly the Dylin in to EWR, all you would have to do is set the alt at Dylin in the window, same thing, it would meet every crossing restriction on it's own.

 

[ProLine4]

1. Yes, the XR has wipers. Somewhere obscure I read that its a requirement for all Pt 121 aircraft to have wipers or "other rain removal equipment."
2. Yes, a few guys think the 145 is a POS until I tell them about the CRJ-200s performance issues. Then they all smile and start answering the calls with "HEAVY" in their best captain voices.
3. To the clown that is anxiously waiting to take our airplanes and put me on the street, good luck. Probably isnt going to happen, and you are one sick %$!* if you get off on taking another person's job.


Some basic numbers out of my head:
CRJ-200: MGTOW 53000, MLW 47000, avg BOW 31000-32000, FL410 max, MMO .85, GE CF34-3B1s around 8800-8900 lbs thrust per side, more when APR is active. The CRJ is an AC airplane, less than 5 items are DC powered.

ERJ-145XR: MGTOW 53131, MLW 44092, avg BOW 28000-29000, FL 370 max,
MMO .80, AE3007-A1E around 9000 lbs per side, more in E TO/when ATTCS is active. The ERJ is a DC airplane, less than 5 items are AC powered.
The ER/EP/LRs numbers are less. MGTOW for LR is 48501, MLW is 42549, MMO is .78. Unfortunately the EP/ER numbers are so low they can leave non-revs at the gate thanks to the ZFW and MRW/MLW.

The ERJ in normal, day-to-day operations outperforms the CRJ-200. The climb and cruise performance exceeds the CRJ even though some of the above limitations would appear to be the opposite. The ERJ will make 370 and .78/.80 in XR and get you there fairly efficiently. There are a few different climb profiles but the latest one is 240/290/.60 for fuel savings.

The CRJ-200 starts dogging out above FL200 and eventually sinks to 500 FPM in order to maintain the desired climb profile speeds (250/290/.70, with a min climb speed of .65, not to go below 300 FPM if I recall correctly.) I am routinely at 370 in the ERJ, but the highest I saw in the CRJ was 380, 1/2 pax, new airframe/engines, and below ISA temps. I also never got anywhere near .85 in the CRJ-200. .74-.78 was the norm, sometimes .80 if the conditions at altitude were right and it was the last leg home to catch the commute.
The CRJs average BOW is 4000-5000 lbs higher than the ERJ, yet both aircraft feature engines with similar thrust outputs. The additional weight of the aircraft plus a wing planform based off the CL601 may explain why the CRJs performance is less than ideal.

Some cons with the ERJ are the ER/EP weight limits, poor weather radar, the noise at MMO, 145 knot Flaps 45 extension speed on non-XRs, and pay. Some pros are straightforward systems, auto anti-ice, FADEC, decent air conditioning, and flaps that can actually be set to 0 after landing.
Some cons with the CRJ are climb performance, the DC electrical synoptic page, the fire detection/bleed leak detection system overhead panel, a 147 kt target speed when landing on the 47000 card, and pay. Some pros are the Collins FMS4200 (a better box than the Primus 1000, IMO), the banana bar, a symbol generator that can draw the holds as well as depict additional fix information, (ie *TACKY 250/11000 on the MFD instead of just *TACKY), and an advisory VNAV function that is much more accurate.

Both are pretty good airplanes. But I prefer the ERJ.

 

[amcnd]

The 200 fells like someone left the boat anchor out!!!
The EMB will out climb any day. Like I said Ive flown both and would chose the EMB over the 200 any day just for flying, but overall. At my job I love the CRJ200 and flying the 700.

 

[LegacyDriver]

My Legacy was 19M dollars. I think they are up to about 23M.

Not sure what the CHallenger 300 goes for but I have done demo flights for people replacing their 601 and 604 with the Legacy.


I believe the XR is quieter than the LR. No more windshield wipers, just like the Legacy.

Of course I very rarely get above 250 knots until my descent so I think the Legacy is quiet compared to the LR (everyone always asking us to do 300+ in the climb, esp. In STL).

 

[LegacyDriver]

I am 6'4" and I can't reach the pedals full aft on the EMB. What are you a WWE wrestler or something???

The only airplane I have sat in that has as much space up front for the pilots would surely be a 737 or something. We are narrower than a CRJ but our pedestal is thinner also, thus plenty of room. I can't imagine anyone complaining about room unless they're some gargantuan individual.

 

[dojetdriver]

I believe the XR is quieter than the LR. No more windshield wipers, just like the Legacy.

Of course I very rarely get above 250 knots until my descent so I think the Legacy is quiet compared to the LR (everyone always asking us to do 300+ in the climb, esp. In STL).

Once again, I gotta ask, have you flown this type of plane before? What do you mean you rarely get above 250 knots? The ERJ indicates 260 kts at FL360. Do you not get that hight in "your" legacy? You talk about how you "410 it dude", do you climb at 250 all the way up?

Last time I looked, the XR had a set of winshield wipers.

 

[LegacyDriver]

Once again, I gotta ask, have you flown this type of plane before? What do you mean you rarely get above 250 knots? The ERJ indicates 260 kts at FL360. Do you not get that hight in "your" legacy? You talk about how you "410 it dude", do you climb at 250 all the way up?

Last time I looked, the XR had a set of winshield wipers.

Have I flown this type of plane before? Yeah, for nearly 4000 hours.

We basically climb at 240KIAS all the way to FL390 unless ATC asks us to do something faster. If you want to range the airplane to go long distances (like Hawaii or across the Atlantic) you want to get it up to altitude as quickly as possible. Time spent below FL250 is wasting gas.

Hmmmm, wipers on the XR? Could swear I didn't see any on the XRs when I was in KEWR last time. Will have to look again I guess.

We don't have wipers on ours and it makes a big difference.

 

[dojetdriver]

Have I flown this type of plane before? Yeah, for nearly 4000 hours.

We basically climb at 240KIAS all the way to FL390 unless ATC asks us to do something faster. If you want to range the airplane to go long distances (like Hawaii or across the Atlantic) you want to get it up to altitude as quickly as possible. Time spent below FL250 is wasting gas.

Hmmmm, wipers on the XR? Could swear I didn't see any on the XRs when I was in KEWR last time. Will have to look again I guess.

We don't have wipers on ours and it makes a big difference.

Come on, be honest. What do you really do? Are you the boy in charge of cleaning the hanger, cleaning the airplane, dumping the lav, hoping some day they will give you a shot at flying an Embraer?

I've only got about 30% the time you claim to have in the ERJ, and I'm a total slacker when it comes memorizing things. But even I seem to know more about this aircraft than you and your "nearly 4000 hours".

The XR's I've been in had wipers. Maybe it's just me, I live in a bizzaro/parallel pilot universe where everything looks different. I guess the photos on airliners.net have been photoshopped to have wipers on them as well.

If you were in EWR, that means you probably had to get out of EWR. I'll bet the controllers loved it when you were doing 250 all the way to altitude in your climb.

 

[say again]

THE DOJET-FRJ is far superior in automation, flying, and pax comfort over both the CRJ and ERJ!!!!!:beer:

 

[LegacyDriver]

As previously stated, I never flew the XR. I very rarely see them up close any way.

Also as previously stated, we very rarely go faster than 240/250 in the climb UNLESS ATC REQUESTS SOMETHING FASTER. In fact I recall being instructed, "Do not exceed 300 knots in the climb," coming out of KEWR last time I was there. So speed wasn't an issue at least as far as going slow is concerned.


I drive a Legacy now. I haven't flown an ERJ in a couple of years but I still remember most of the numbers. (I flew the 145, 140, and 135 with most in the 140.)

48722
48501
42549

46738
41226
36798

Yadda yadda yadda...

 

[dojetdriver]

THE DOJET-FRJ is far superior in automation, flying, and pax comfort over both the CRJ and ERJ!!!!!:beer:

Ageed. The only thing it lacked was enough leg room up front. Maybe a higher flap speed for the intial application of flaps as well.

The amount of management/workload was WAY less in that airplane than the EMB. Even with just one FMS.

Viva the DoJet!