CRJ Fuel....

[Crzipilot]

Just curious.

What type of fuel loads do the CRJ operaters out there plan for over destination, or target landing fuel, on clear VFR no alternate flight plan.

From your flight releases, what's your average reserve fuel figure, and what's the fuel load you start getting uncomfortable landing with?

 

[JustaNumber]

Our company uses 45 minutes based on last cruise fuel flow, plus 15-20 minutes holding fuel depending on outbound from or inbound to hub, plus occasional tankering. Of course, last cruise fuel flow varies substantially based on factors such as altitude, ISA deviation, and gross weight. I would say the 45 minute figure varies between about 1800 and 2300 pounds for the CRJ200.

I've always had a bit of a problem with the logic of using last cruise fuel flow for that 45 minute reserve. So what if you flew across the country at FL350, only to have to go missed at your destination? You can't exactly go back up to FL350 when you really need the fuel. It would be better if it were based on fuel flow at 10,000 or 18,000, or something more reasonable.

That being said, I fly with what they give me, and only ask for more if I start to see questionable factors for the flight adding up. When I get closer to the destination, I start thinking about other options if I won't land with very close to whatever minimum they planned for me. 1800 pounds I guess would be the limit for me, then.

 

[Leroy Smith]

Have been on a lot of flights where we got gobs of alternate and contingency fuel, had to bump passengers. While the forecast may have required it, more often than not it was VFR by the time we got there.

On the other hand, preflighted a CRJ recently that had about 1100lbs onboard. Previous crew came in from Canada on a 3+hr flight and landed with things pretty close to Cat I mins and getting scuzzier. Yeah, they had Cat II capability, but it wouldnt have taken a whole lot to leave them with NO options. Talked to a guy the next day who saw a similar load, but it was VFR at the time.

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

I dont like being planned to land with less than 2500.... 3000 being my preference (no alternate). Plan for 2000-2100 for the reserves, 15-30 minutes typically on the C-fuel. I've never seen tankering.



Added: 1100 pounds? geez.... that's way way way low....

 

[=w=]

On the other hand, preflighted a CRJ recently that had about 1100lbs onboard. Previous crew came in from Canada on a 3+hr flight and landed with things pretty close to Cat I mins and getting scuzzier. Yeah, they had Cat II capability, but it wouldnt have taken a whole lot to leave them with NO options. Talked to a guy the next day who saw a similar load, but it was VFR at the time.

That's what happens when you have 100kt headwind and want to get home quickly, so you're crusiing along at .78+ when you're planned for .74, then all of a sudden you get to ATL and hold for a bit... I love hearing them whining to dispatch that they had a headwind or had to change altitudes when it's their own darn fault for going as fast as they can go and wasting the fuel away during the 3 hr flight! Holding .74 vs max cruise thrust is 100-200lbs/hr per engine so over 3 hours that adds up to 800-1200lbs of fuel you just pissed away to get there 5 min faster. There's no learnin' some people though.

 

[Lear70]

On the other hand, preflighted a CRJ recently that had about 1100lbs onboard. Previous crew came in from Canada on a 3+hr flight and landed with things pretty close to Cat I mins and getting scuzzier.

That should be landing someone with about a week of unpaid leave to think about it.

550 pounds A SIDE at landing? YGBSM... They HAD to know at some point during the flight they were going to land with less than their 45 minute reserve??!!

If, at ANY time during the flight it's obvious we're going to have less FOA than your 45 minute reserve, I start looking for somewhere else to land and get gas.

Lately our company has gone to 200-300 pounds of contingency fuel so if our EFOA in flight changes to even SLIGHTLY under our PROPOSED EFOA, I pull it back to LRC. If that delays the next flight, too fracking bad. If we have to divert and the next flight cancels, again, TFB!

Eventually they'll take enough diversion hits and start bringing contingency fuel back up. Good thing we don't fly into ATL.

 

[MACH-TUCK]

I dont like being planned to land with less than 2500.... 3000 being my preference (no alternate). Plan for 2000-2100 for the reserves, 15-30 minutes typically on the C-fuel. I've never seen tankering.



Added: 1100 pounds? geez.... that's way way way low....

The other night we Tankerd fuel into EAU...Had somthing to do with there JET fuel not being up to par.

 

[ultrarunner]

Just curious.

What type of fuel loads do the CRJ operaters out there plan for over destination, or target landing fuel, on clear VFR no alternate flight plan.

Great, now these things are flying around VFR???? Great.

CRZ, these are 121 operations. They are all on IFR flight plans. Regardless of wx conditions.

 

[Crzipilot]

Yes, they are operating as 121, and under which, you can dispatch to destination with no alternate as long as you meet the required wx. Hence the nature of the question, when such conditions exist, what do other operaters use for reserve fuel, and standard contingency fuel if any? Depending on your POI, some have idea that it's OK to burn into reserve fuel, if needed, I.E> unplanned holding, deviations, vectoring, etc etc.....Whereas some say it's a big no no to burn into reserve. Personally I've seen it both ways, and just curious what other operaters fuel loads look like.

 

[Crzipilot]

double post

 

[JetPilot_Mike]

On the other hand, preflighted a CRJ recently that had about 1100lbs onboard. Previous crew came in from Canada on a 3+hr flight and landed with things pretty close to Cat I mins and getting scuzzier. Yeah, they had Cat II capability, but it wouldnt have taken a whole lot to leave them with NO options. Talked to a guy the next day who saw a similar load, but it was VFR at the time.

Wow..that is almost reckless. What about alt fuel? What about reserve? The least I have ever landed with was 1900lbs, and that was back when Comair was using low reserve numbers in the 1500's. I was very uncomfortable at 1900lbs.

1100lbs would be a declared emergency, I think, at Comair.

 

[JECKEL]

Comair has a minimum fuel table in it's operation manual.

Emergency Fuel under that table is 1500 lbs. That allows you a missed approach, followed by 25 minutes at 1500' (at MLW, ISA +10, W/C A/I), and fuel to fly a second approach.

"The captain shall declare an emergency when the estimated fuel remaining upon landing will be less than the emergency fuel listed in the table or remaining usuable fuel will allow 30 minutes or less of continued flight time."

 

[Lear70]

That's almost verbatim from what our FOM says here at PCL.

Using reserve fuel when you're holding at an arrival fix at your destination is fine, that's what reserve fuel exists for.

Holding on the ground before you takeoff, getting leveled at 17,000 for 30 minutes exiting the Northeast Corridor, or unplanned flight plan deviations for hundreds of miles in the wrong direction against a headwind are all PERFECT examples of what reserve fuel was NOT intended to cover, that's what CONTINGENCY fuel is for.

If I'm not on the arrival for whatever city I'm landing in and our EFOA shows us eating into our reserve, I'm diverting. Done that once or twice a year the last 5 at this company and have NEVER, EVER done a carpet crawl for it.

My personal "happy place" on C fuel is 500 lbs CAVU into a small airport, 700 lbs CAVU into a hub or large airport (DFW, BOS, etc), 700 lbs IMC conditions into a small airport, 900 lbs IMC conditions into a large airport, unless you're departing with a ceiling less than 500' at your destination (now or forecase) or convective weather at your destination (now or forecast), in which case I ask for more like 1,100 to 1,200 lbs.

Fuel in the gas truck doesn't help you and I hate when my sleep is reduced after we divert because some pencil pusher in an ivory tower somewhere decided we could save 10 lbs of fuel per flight for carrying 8 minutes of C fuel instead of 20.

 

[ReportCanoa]

That's what happens when you have 100kt headwind and want to get home quickly, so you're crusiing along at .78+ when you're planned for .74, then all of a sudden you get to ATL and hold for a bit... I love hearing them whining to dispatch that they had a headwind or had to change altitudes when it's their own darn fault for going as fast as they can go and wasting the fuel away during the 3 hr flight! Holding .74 vs max cruise thrust is 100-200lbs/hr per engine so over 3 hours that adds up to 800-1200lbs of fuel you just pissed away to get there 5 min faster. There's no learnin' some people though.

You've got that right.

 

[Russ]

Like to see 2700 min on the 200 and 3500 min on the 700 on landing.

 

[B-J-J Fighter]

What is a "normal" cruise flow for the CRJ? From reading the above posts, it sounds like 1100 lbs is less than 30 minutes?

 

[=w=]

What is a "normal" cruise flow for the CRJ? From reading the above posts, it sounds like 1100 lbs is less than 30 minutes?

Way less. Normal cruise is 1300-1600pph per side at altitude.

 

[wmuflyguy]

That should be landing someone with about a week of unpaid leave to think about it.

550 pounds A SIDE at landing? YGBSM... They HAD to know at some point during the flight they were going to land with less than their 45 minute reserve??!!

I don't believe there is a FAR that says I have to land with certain amount of fuel on-board. The only requirement I know is to carry 45mins reserve on a flight. Where we use that fuel is up to us.

According to the Feds, If I land and taxi clear of the runway and the engines flame out, the flight was a success.

I agree 1100 pounds is really low, but you aren't sure what circumstances led up to it. I am pretty sure no-one would get time off for it.

 

[Lear70]

I don't believe there is a FAR that says I have to land with certain amount of fuel on-board. The only requirement I know is to carry 45mins reserve on a flight. Where we use that fuel is up to us.

According to the Feds, If I land and taxi clear of the runway and the engines flame out, the flight was a success.

I agree 1100 pounds is really low, but you aren't sure what circumstances led up to it. I am pretty sure no-one would get time off for it.

Well, I'll put it more bluntly then.

If I were a Check Airman and you made a decision EARLY in flight to continue to your destination KNOWING you would land with less than your reserve, I'd bust you for poor decision making skills. I have absolutely ZERO tolerance for people pushing a bad situation in regards to safety.

Your attitude of "If I land and taxi clear of the runway and the engines flame out, the flight was a success" is complete and total bullsh*t. That's careless and reckless, no matter HOW you look at it, unless you were backed into a corner at your arrival station and didn't have the fuel to go anywhere else.

Lastly, I will NEVER, EVER allow the aircraft I command to be operated with an EFOA of LESS than reserve fuel if there is an enroute station to divert to and pick up additional fuel.

We WILL return to gate, OR divert.

That position, incidentally, has been upheld repeatedly by our MEC reps and our Chief Pilot and guys HAVE gotten suspended for bad judgment calls related to fuel, and THAT'S A FACT!

 

[wmuflyguy]

Well, I'll put it more bluntly then.

If I were a Check Airman and you made a decision EARLY in flight to continue to your destination KNOWING you would land with less than your reserve, I'd bust you for poor decision making skills. I have absolutely ZERO tolerance for people pushing a bad situation in regards to safety.

Your attitude of "If I land and taxi clear of the runway and the engines flame out, the flight was a success" is complete and total bullsh*t. That's careless and reckless, no matter HOW you look at it, unless you were backed into a corner at your arrival station and didn't have the fuel to go anywhere else.

Lastly, I will NEVER, EVER allow the aircraft I command to be operated with an EFOA of LESS than reserve fuel if there is an enroute station to divert to and pick up additional fuel.

We WILL return to gate, OR divert.

That position, incidentally, has been upheld repeatedly by our MEC reps and our Chief Pilot and guys HAVE gotten suspended for bad judgment calls related to fuel, and THAT'S A FACT!

Listen here, i wasn't conveying my attitude, I was stating the rules as they are written by the FEDS. I said I agree with you that 1100#'s is way too low. You didn't know the circumstances that the crew landed with 1100# with, so you saying they should get time-off is BS.

Why don't you go have a beer and chill out.

 

[=w=]

That's the attitude at ASA training too. Landing and running out of fuel on the way back to the gate is fine. Of course, if that actually happens, I'm sure you'll have a fun visit to the CP office.

 

[Amish RakeFight]

Great, now these things are flying around VFR???? Great.

CRZ, these are 121 operations. They are all on IFR flight plans. Regardless of wx conditions.

C'mon dude, pay attention. You misunderstood his question.

VFR weather on an IFR flight plan.

 

[PCL_128]

That's what happens when you have 100kt headwind and want to get home quickly, so you're crusiing along at .78+ when you're planned for .74, then all of a sudden you get to ATL and hold for a bit... I love hearing them whining to dispatch that they had a headwind or had to change altitudes when it's their own darn fault for going as fast as they can go and wasting the fuel away during the 3 hr flight! Holding .74 vs max cruise thrust is 100-200lbs/hr per engine so over 3 hours that adds up to 800-1200lbs of fuel you just pissed away to get there 5 min faster. There's no learnin' some people though.

Exactly!!! The very same people that complain that the company doesn't give them enough fuel are usually the ones flying around faster than they are planned for, never single-engine taxiing, and descending at 1000fpm 150 miles out. Our pilots at Pinnacle complain constantly that they don't receive enough Contingency fuel, but the fact is that we have been getting more C-fuel (in minutes) than mainline ever gets. I routinely land with several hundred pounds more than planned EFOA because the DX is usually quite liberal with Taxi fuel and such.

 

[Lear70]

I routinely land with several hundred pounds more than planned EFOA because the DX is usually quite liberal with Taxi fuel and such.

Which is probably the reason we don't have more diverts here. That taxi fuel becomes a nice addition to C fuel if you S.E. taxi on a busy day in MSP or DTW (or DFW, BOS, DCA, PHL, you know - those RJ destinations).

I WISH I could have a beer. Haven't had a drinkable (12+ hours) overnight in almost a month now.

 

[wmuflyguy]

I WISH I could have a beer. Haven't had a drinkable (12+ hours) overnight in almost a month now.

Man i'm sorry that is criminal.

 

[JetPilot_Mike]

Man i'm sorry that is criminal.

Yeah, but he's home more than we are, and probably makes more, to. I'd glady pass up a few beers at work (on proper overnights) to have a lot of time to drink them at home.

 

[Lear70]

Yeah, but he's home more than we are, and probably makes more, to. I'd glady pass up a few beers at work (on proper overnights) to have a lot of time to drink them at home.

Are you smokin' crack? Look at who I work for... they don't know the meaning of "days off".

My title mentions "5 years holding 10 days off", and it's almost not an exaggeration, I've been holding 12 day off lines for a while now with no change in sight... 11 or 10 days off if I want my weekends and full commutability.

But yes, when I go home, the bottle of Jack is there waiting.

 

[Tank Commander]

I've been

smokin' crack

Rich, These are some fragments of some of your post tonight. I'm seeing hidden messages....

 

[Lear70]

Rich, These are some fragments of some of your post tonight. I'm seeing hidden messages....

Wouldn't that be nice? I think that TRULY is the answer to all our aviation woes: just drug us. That way we won't know how badly we're getting screwed!

 

[JetPilot_Mike]

I stand corrected! Your schedule sounds like mine, except I'm on year 7!