Crash Narrowly Averted at LAX (again...)

[Lazy8]

Great job to the SkyWest pilots!

 

[Newpilot2b]

Take that one To Jerry and Brad and say " How much are we worth to ya now?"

 

[bayoubandit]

What's rotation speed for an RJ? They said it was near 115mph when it braked (instead of pulling up). Just curious what the rot. speed is.

I sure as hell wouldn't want to be whoever was flying the Gulfstream

If it was going to SAT, then it was a -700. Rotation speed at sea level and approximating their weight would be around 123-126ish.

 

[bayoubandit]

Take that one To Jerry and Brad and say " How much are we worth to ya now?"

They don't tell us these things. We only find out about them through FI

 

[Morning Wood]

Take that one To Jerry and Brad and say " How much are we worth to ya now?"

No more, no less than the day before this happened. They aren't going to let the pilots back the armored car up to the vault because of these two incidents.

 

[Turtlesfly]

Unbelievable. It's not really that hard - I know we all make mistakes, but to cross the big double line with blinky lights and red boxes and red bars and then the ol' "clear left and clear right" and "cleared to cross" and writing the info in the scratchpad . . . I gotta say it these pilots are retarded. Thank God they left the airlines, if that's where they came from

 

[pookie]

Damn Brits, they always ruin it for everyone else. I would give a million peanut snacks to see the reaction of the two pilots as they watched the rj approach them at 130kts.

 

[-9Capt]

What about experience of the AirTran crew that flew through two level-six thunderstorms?

I don't know where you got two level six thunderstorms from, but there is more to this story than you know.

If you're talking about the early '98 incident involving the DC9 over Chattanooga, it was hail outside the t-storm cell that they ran into, radar was clear. The FO is a senior capt now, a good friend of mine. He took pictures of the aircraft afterwards, unbelievable, I don't know how it kept flying.

 

[-9Capt]

Unbelievable. It's not really that hard - I know we all make mistakes, but to cross the big double line with blinky lights and red boxes and red bars and then the ol' "clear left and clear right" and "cleared to cross" and writing the info in the scratchpad . . . I gotta say it these pilots are retarded. Thank God they left the airlines, if that's where they came from

You'll be next.

 

[BoilerUP]

I don't know where you got two level six thunderstorms from, but there is more to this story than you know.

If you're talking about the early '98 incident involving the DC9 over Chattanooga, it was hail outside the t-storm cell that they ran into, radar was clear. The FO is a senior capt now, a good friend of mine. He took pictures of the aircraft afterwards, unbelievable, I don't know how it kept flying.

Yes that is what I am talking about, and I did a presentation on the decisionmaking & CRM duing this incident in college based on the NTSB reports and the article about it in AOPA Pilot magazine. The NTSB report said the aircraft was operating around Level 6 returns and hit the hail while manuevering through an approx. 10nm gap between cells. It also reported the Captain was displaced to FO after the hail incident. The description of the damage is amazing, I can only imagine what the pictures look like.

The point of my post is pilots at every level make mistakes, and it isn't limited to the regional or corpoate level.

 

[Gr82Aviate]

How experienced were the G-whiz drivers that crashed landing in Aspen? What about the Gulfstream pilots that ran off the runway in PWK and put the aircraft in a ditch? How about all the Challenger pilots that keep running off runways?

What about experience of the AirTran crew that flew through two level-six thunderstorms? Or the NWA crew that forgot to set flaps for takeoff? Or the AA crew that flew into the mountain in Cali? Or the Eastern crew that decended a perfectly good airplane into the Everglades? Or the United DC8 crew that forgot to check their fuel quantity while holding?

This is not a 'corporate and regional pilots are less experienced and therefore less safe than their major (or in your supposed case, UNITED) counterparts issue.

Congrats on making some Flightinfo-worthy flamebait though!

BoilerUP, I flew with the Aspen Gulfstream Captain in the past when he was my first officer and he was one of, if not the best pilots I have ever flown with in my life...A natural stick, and his abilities were way beyond what someone normally would possess with the amount of experience he had at the time...

 

[Crizz]

You guys are completely missing Boiler's point. The guy is just trying to say mistakes can and do happen at all levels.

Fly safe everyone...

 

[Soverytired]

Interesting theory, exc ept you forget that the in both incidents mentioned above, the crew that is credited with PREVENTING accidents, doing a phenomenal job by the way, are SKYWEST crews. One an RJ and one a Brasilia. Last time I checked they hired lower time pilots like everyone else. Maybe SKYWEST training just does a better job than some others.

:beer: :beer::beer:

Plus, on a side note, LAX definitely has problems, no? Not really the controllers, but the layout in general. This crap happens way too much there.

At a certain point, you'd think they'd try to copy a more successful layout (the highspeeds at LAS, perhaps?) Seems to me that would be money far better spent than all the American taxpayer moo-la they're burning up reinforncing a runyway so that POS A380 can land there in a few years . . . a plane I might add, that no US passenger airline has even ordered.

(note to self: posting at 0 dark thirty does not lead to cogent posting . . .)

 

[Sam Snead]

Does LAX have the SMCGS or whatever it's called that's supposed to alert the ground controller and/or local controller to conflicts?

If they have it, was it working at the time?

Thirdly, does it honk if someone moves onto the runway without a crossing clearance?

Thank goodness for anti-lock brakes.

 

[MRYFLYER]

The point of my post is pilots at every level make mistakes, and it isn't limited to the regional or corpoate level.

So now I see the reason for your sensitivity. You were in college doing report on an incident from '98. I suppose that puts you in the group of the pilots that have been involved in these recent rash of accidents and incidents.

I agree mistakes take place at every level. However, I have seen this complacency first hand by the new cadre of aviators and it is worrisome. Again I can not lay the blame on one issue but a myriad of dynamics that is causing this breakdown in safety. Is it perceived high performance aircraft with glass cockpits, is it using the automation too much, is it lack of basic flying skills and background, is it lack of respect for what is being done? No matter what the cause the effect is being seen way too often.

 

[Turtlesfly]

You'll be next.

My point was that runway crossings are given the most protection and attention -- of course every crew makes mistakes at some point and even some that compromise safety, but with all the checks-and-balances in the CRM topic of runway crossings, it seems that that's not an easy area to make a huge mistake. As if, you'd really have to try to not pay attention to where you are.


Cheers

 

[Crizz]

I suppose that puts you in the group of the pilots that have been involved in these recent rash of accidents and incidents.

I think it's your attitude that is disturbing, fella. What "group" is responsible for recent accidents? The Comair FO is in his 40s. The Gulfstream crew most certainly werent newbies. Okay, you got me on Mesa - but what do you expect?

I have flown with extremely professional and competent young guys, and extremely incompetent and dangerous old guys... and everything in between.

I'll agree with you on most of what you're saying. Complacency and disrespect for the duty you are performing is extremely dangerous. But to single out every aviator under the age of 35 is downright disrespectful.

 

[MRYFLYER]

I'll agree with you on most of what you're saying. Complacency and disrespect for the duty you are performing is extremely dangerous. But to single out every aviator under the age of 35 is downright disrespectful.

I am not singling out "young guys". You see many of these 40ish guys that were widget salesmen their whole lives and decide to become airline pilots. In the case of the CMR pilot I understand he was a late starter and used one of those companies that allows you to pay to sit in the right seat. There is a curve with new technology. The guys I started flying with back in the day used to fly the beam. I cut my teeth on flying transcons in airplanes with only dual VOR's and a DME. Every turn was backed up with an enroute chart by both pilots, the advent of INS resulted in nav errors, and now with all the information at hand we see new errors created with the technology change. I think many that have entered this career path have the feeling this is an easy job. While it is certainly not the most difficult it is very unforgiving of those that don't take it seriously. My impression is that many would rather fight the "who stole my flying for my RJ" fight than to do the job in a profession manner.

 

[Bosley]

I think it's your attitude that is disturbing, fella. What "group" is responsible for recent accidents? The Comair FO is in his 40s. The Gulfstream crew most certainly werent newbies. Okay, you got me on Mesa - but what do you expect?

Just ignore mryflyer. Its only 32lt10 in a reincarnated screen name! You see he is not only frustrated in his go nowhere career flying 747's for less pay than a 737 captain, but he has no life, family or friends! He is a loser who has to show how superior he is by coming on the regionals forum and putting down rj pilots! Don't worry about revenge, life has dealt it to him big time!

 

[SkyBoy1981]

I am not singling out "young guys". You see many of these 40ish guys that were widget salesmen their whole lives and decide to become airline pilots. In the case of the CMR pilot I understand he was a late starter and used one of those companies that allows you to pay to sit in the right seat. There is a curve with new technology. The guys I started flying with back in the day used to fly the beam. I cut my teeth on flying transcons in airplanes with only dual VOR's and a DME. Every turn was backed up with an enroute chart by both pilots, the advent of INS resulted in nav errors, and now with all the information at hand we see new errors created with the technology change. I think many that have entered this career path have the feeling this is an easy job. While it is certainly not the most difficult it is very unforgiving of those that don't take it seriously. My impression is that many would rather fight the "who stole my flying for my RJ" fight than to do the job in a profession manner.

I will agree that there are a large number of guys coming out of some of these fast-track factory type schools that are lazy, apathetic and simply shouldn't be in the cockpit of a jet airplane of any kind. With that being said, I don't see what that has to do with this particular incident. You're implying that anyone who is below 35 and/or flies a business jet or an RJ is not as skilled or competent as yourself and your Boeing flying comrads. Making these sort of broad, sweeping generalizations is just wrong, especially when you have no idea what the experience level may have been of those involved. Keep in mind, there was also an RJ crew involved in this incident that did an oustanding job preventing a potential disaster.

Then again, I don't expect for you to listen to me. I'm just a 25 year old know-it-all.