Crab & Kick or Slip

[minitour]

I guess there's no right or wrong answer, but looking for opinions or benefits of one vs the other.

I got really good at the crab and kick but then after I got b*tched at by a check airman for doing that, I have been doing the slip exclusively. It just occured to me reading the Airbus XWind Landing at LGA thread that I haven't even practiced a Crab & Kick in almost four months, but I think tomorrow if I can get a decent crosswind I might have to give it a shot.

Again, just looking for opinions on benefits on one vs the other.

-mini

 

[Lead Sled]

I wouldn't get too excited about the "crab & kick" method at this point. It's probably OK for you to wait to you get closer to a front row seat in a Boeing or Airbus. After all, that's the way you land one of those things to keep from scraping the engine pods on the runway in a crosswind. For the rest of the stuff we fly, from tail-draggers to jets, the slip works just fine thank you.

'Sled

 

[avbug]

I'll chime in the other way, and suggest that there are few applications for making an approach and landing in a bank. If you landed the airplane straight, then the examiner had no grounds to take exception...unless he was requiring you to demonstrate the other type of landing.

I don't like flying down final in a bank, and neither do passengers. When I'm alone in a really strong crosswind in a conventional gear airplane, I'll do both; going to banking only to ensure that I can hold the longitudinal axis of the airplane on the centerline with control authority available at the approach speed I'm using. Other than that, there's really no value to not crabbing. Most of the time I'll crab all the way down and kick it out in the flare...including in conventional gear aircraft.

 

[midlifeflyer]

I'll throw in with my usual FAQ or diatribe (take you pick) on how there really isn't any difference between the two.

==============================
I think it's great when people start talking about "slip all the way" vs. "kick it at the last minute." In many groups, the flame throwers start next and each side tells why it's selected method is the best.

Being completely wishy-washy (Charlie Brown is my hero), my take is somewhere in the middle:

"Crab & Kick" and "Slip All The Way" aren't different from each other. They're opposite ends of a spectrum.

Let's look at a crosswind landing:

1. As you turn final, you should still be in coordinated flight. That, at least initially, means crab in order to track the extended runway centerline. The direction and degree of the crab is a excellent indication of the general direction and strength of the wind. Comparison between this and the wind sock 300-400' below will tell you a lot about what to expect (especially if they show the wind in opposite directions!)

2. =At some point== you will transition into a slip. That point may be very early on final, somewhere down the middle, in the flare, or at the moment immediately before touchdown. Where you do it will be a matter of personal preferences and your preference may change depending on flight conditions.

For example, if the wind is particularly strong and you haven't had a lot of crosswind practice lately, you might set up the slip earlier to test control effectiveness. If you have passengers on board (especially in the back seat) you might transition into the slip later since passengers don't tend to enjoy the yaw of a slip that much.

3. An important lesson to take home. Whether you transition to the slip at the last moment or a mile away, you have to move your ailerons into the crosswind correction configuration. If not, at best, you will sideload the airplane; at worst, the wind will lift your wing and/or push you off the runway. Most crosswind accidents happen once you are on the ground, not while you are still in the air

The important things are pilot proficiency, pilot (and passenger) comfort level, safety, knowing that you have to transition to crosswind taxi on roll out, and understanding the aerodynamics involved in each end of the spectrum. (For example, a longer slip requires more power.)

 

[Lead Sled]

Midlifeflyer...
You are spot on and it was my mistake for not being more clear in my explaination. I was in no way advocating the practice of slipping all the way down final - not that there's anything wrong with that. [Note: Lame attempt at humor.] As Avbug correctly said, it's annoying to the passengers. (And when someone is paying you big $$$ to fly them around in their jet the last thing you want to do is annoy the passengers. )

The point I guess that I was trying to make is that unless you happen to be flying something with low-slung, pod-mounted engines there's not really a lot of need to touch down in a wings level attitude.

'Sled

 

[groundpointsix]

I had a student try to fly in the slip method from about 2000 AGL with about 20-25 knots of wind aloft. I tried to smack him but i couldn't peel my arm from the side of the airplane. Crab and kick for passenger (and instructor) comfort.

 

[Xavier]

I had a student try to fly in the slip method from about 2000 AGL with about 20-25 knots of wind aloft. I tried to smack him but i couldn't peel my arm from the side of the airplane. Crab and kick for passenger (and instructor) comfort.

What exactly is "kick". I am familiar with Crab and Slipping the landing, but what do you mean by kick? When I slip im always scared I will go to low, or slip when it wasn't necessary, although Im still working on my landings in general.

 

[minitour]

The "Kick" is the point you use rudder to remove the crab angle and line up the longitudinal axis, runway centerline and direction of the airplane.

Technically, midlife is right since you do in fact transition into the slip when you "kick" out the crab. Make sure you get that aileron down into the wind and keep it there. Full deflection once you're slowing down on the ground.

So...while they're both technically slips...one is called the "crab and kick" method.

If you're just starting, make sure your CFI demonstrates and has you demonstrate both types. Get really good with at least one of them, but be able to do both of them.

As I said, I had an examiner on the instrument ride ream me pretty good for doing the crab and kick method when I guess he wanted to see the slip. It was my fault for not being comfortable with the slip coming in on the localizer. I should have been prepared for either one (not that he specified, but I should have been ready) and not just the crab and kick for the instrument approach.

-mini

 

[qmaster3]

X,

If you familiar with the crab. Alls the kick is "kicking out the crab" with the rudder during the flare. You do this so the plane doesn't land sideways.

Good one mini

 

[qmaster3]

x

Most CFI's will have you do the slip. Most of us low timers are just not good enuf to Crab it. If that plane takes too much of a side load (touches down sideways) the AP's/Airplane owners are not going to be happy. If I was a CFI I would never teach the Crab method to a private student.

Anyway bud, I saw your post asking about military pilots. Others here like AVBUG, Lead sled, and mini could answer your questions about going the Civy route. PM me if you have Navy questions. Not a pilot but can answer most of your questions. I've been in 8/yrs.

 

[Donsa320]

I dunno, I typed in the A-320 15 years ago and the accepted method then was to touchdown wing low into the crosswind with enough top rudder to keep from turning, same as every other type airplane I ever flew. And there have been lots of them. But no Aircoupes. <bg>

-DC

 

[bafanguy]

In the Corporate forum, there's a thread titled, "GV Crosswind Technique", that addresses a lot of what is mentioned here. Probably oriented toward larger-airplane stuff, but you'll find it interesting.

 

[FracCapt]

Crab and kick. No reason to fly down final in a slip making it uncomfortable for pax. Not flying pax yet? Well, when you do start, it'll be one less habit to un-learn. I had an FO once fly down final from about 1500' in a slip with a strong crosswind. He kept commenting about how much more power it was taking than in usual to fly the glide slope on speed. I later asked him if he knew why that was...and he stated that "it must be that the crosswind causes the engines to be less efficient, so you have to spool them up higher to get the same thrust". I would've smacked him, but I was laughing so hard I couldn't..

 

[Cat Driver]

Both methods of landing should be taught and the private pilot student should be profficient in both and or a combination of both.

Sideslipping on final during the approach is not only uncomfortable and annoying but shows poor understanding of how to track straight over the ground before the flare to the landing attitude.

Donsa320, good comment, thats why Airbus gave pilots back rudder use in the landing configuration.

 

[Fly_Chick]

I heard about a year ago that the FAA was looking for private pilot applicants to slip. They were looking for commercial pilots to "crab & kick". Unfortnately, I have not been able to back this up, just thought I would add my two cents.

 

[minitour]

...I later asked him if he knew why that was...and he stated that "it must be that the crosswind causes the engines to be less efficient, so you have to spool them up higher to get the same thrust". I would've smacked him, but I was laughing so hard I couldn't..

I know what you mean. The lack of basic (and I mean very basic) aerodynamic understanding is astonishing. Ask someone "what makes an airplane climb?", and you get all sorts of answers:
"You're close to the critical angle of attack"
"You're producing too much lift"
"you're traveling forward faster than the earth is rotating"

Thanks for all the input folks, if I ever get to fly some day I'll try to put it to good use.

-mini

 

[Ralgha]

As I said, I had an examiner on the instrument ride ream me pretty good for doing the crab and kick method when I guess he wanted to see the slip. It was my fault for not being comfortable with the slip coming in on the localizer. I should have been prepared for either one (not that he specified, but I should have been ready) and not just the crab and kick for the instrument approach.

Wait...he wanted you to slip down an ILS on the instruments? Did you smack him? Or did I misinterpret?

 

[minitour]

Wait...he wanted you to slip down an ILS on the instruments? Did you smack him? Or did I misinterpret?

Not down an ILS, down a LOC approach.

Didn't slap him, just refused to do any more check rides with him. So now I get to do my II and CMEL rides with "the boss". I'm not really happy about that since he's been known to fail the gear, flaps, an engine, gyros, and alternator on the instrument approach portion of the CMEL rides. The ATP rides he gives, he fails everything that can be failed....and I mean everything. He took away some guys compass last week because the guy was "being a coky bastard"...so that should be fun .

But no...you didn't misinterpret. He told me after the ride that anytime I'm doing instrument stuff, I should be slipped. He even tried telling me that my hold over the OM (which was no gyro) was wrong because I was crabbed into the wind to correct. My instructor got an earfull the next day and didn't understand why. Everything I was taught came out of the Instrument Flying Handbook...so...yeah. He's one of those "I'm the best pilot, just ask me" kinda guys.

Anyway...interesting character, huh?

-mini

 

[agpilot34]

When I did my private back in '88, I was taught to slip, and slip only. When I did my taildragger checkout a couple years later, I was taught to crab & kick, and that's primarily the method I've used ever since. 3,000 hours of flying ag and pipeline patrol ops have taught me that there is no "one" method of flying that is appropriate for "every" circumstance. I've watched low hour private pilots slip all the way down on final, with barely enough airspeed to stay in the air, and I wonder how they've kept from busting their ass as long as they have. Try it both ways, and see what is comfortable for you.

 

[Cat Driver]

AAhhhh........ Ag Flying...Best job I ever had...Bar none..


Cat Driver

 

[agpilot34]

You and me both!! I really miss it, but I enjoy the pipeline patrol pretty well, too. What part of the country did you fly in?

AAhhhh........ Ag Flying...Best job I ever had...Bar none..


Cat Driver

 

[Cat Driver]

I started in southern Ontario in the tobacco fields with a J3 Cub then Super Cub , Stearman, Pawnee and the Hughes 300.

Anyhow most of my Ag flying was in S. Ont. Canada many moons ago.....

I did one season in western Canada but the fields were so big that didn't really count.

Cat

 

[bobbysamd]

Crosswind landings

I personally was always more comfortable using the wing-low (slip) method for crosswind landings, probably because I did not practice the crab method much. It is fine for Cessnas, Pipers, etc., but is not how you land the so-called big iron.

As was discussed on the General Forum thread about the 737 landing at LGA and was explained to me many years ago by a very nice 737 pilot, you land heavy equipment in crosswinds by crabbing and kicking it straight before touchdown - the reason being that if you used wing-low on a 737 you might scrape the bottom of a nacelle. Pax comfort is another reason to use the crab method.

Students should be taught both methods, but, if they have a goal to fly large equipment, they should be trained well on the kickout method.

 

[Frmr Avro Drvr]

This really is a funny thread.

I would really like to see someone land a light aircraft without using cross-controls (slip). Oh wait, my pre-solo private pilots do that. I don't usually see it after solo. Actually I wouldn't sign them off if they did that. Bear with me here and read everything that follows.

The reason a crab and kick (as it has been referred to) works in the heavy metal is because they are heavy. The aircraft has enough inertia (momentum) that throwing in the rudder at the last minute doesn't generate any lateral movement before the aircraft touches down.

In a Cessna, if you stomp on the rudder in the flare but don't add ailerons you will be heading off into the weeds. It will respond very quickly.

As was mentioned before, all cross-wind approaches involve a slip at some point. For some pilots it is five feet above the runway and others it is 1000 feet. The reason instructors teach a slip from a higher altitude is that it gives the students the whole final approach to work the hands and feet. Throughout final approach they are using their hands and feet to maintain centerline and it is good practice. The follow-on step in the learning process is the move the point where the slip begins closer and closer to the runway. Eventually the student will be crabbing until they are ready to flare. At that point they add rudder and opposite aileron and guess what...they are slipping with a wing low touchdown.

As a side note, I landed both the Saab 340 (28,000 lbs MLW) and Avro RJ85 (85,000 lbs MLW) by "kicking out" the crab into a SLIP which would have me wing low into the wind at main gear touchdown.

It is true that nacelles on the larger aircraft can drag but they have momentum on their side so rudder input close to the runway does not allow enough time for drift to develop.

Those of you light aircraft pilots who say they don't slip when they land in the cross-wind should try it without adding aileron. I bet it won't be pretty. I bet you add opposite aileron in when you "kick" it but just don't know it.

For those of you who say thay have to slip for an extended time down final. Work at gradually delaying the point on final where you start the slip. Eventually you will get to the point where you don't establish the slip until flying over the numbers. At that point you are doing what has been referred to here as "crab and kick".

And for the Chief Pilot or instructor or whatever he calls himself: If he expects me to fly an ILS or a Hold in a slip, he is an idiot. I don't usually judge people that way but someone in a position like that should not be spouting off idiotic statements like that.

 

[minitour]

As was mentioned before, all cross-wind approaches involve a slip at some point. For some pilots it is five feet above the runway and others it is 1000 feet. ...Eventually the student will be crabbing until they are ready to flare. At that point they add rudder and opposite aileron and guess what...they are slipping with a wing low touchdown.

I've come to the conclusion over the past few days and specifically today (wind 280 at 14G22 on the way in tonight landing RY 21) that I in fact do what you have just said...or what I would call "crab and kick".

I actually asked my instructor yesterday to keep an eye on things and tell me what he saw. When we talked about it after the flight today, we determined that I was "slipping" but only once I began the flare.

I've always been told to put the "aileron into the wind and opposite rudder" to land in a cross wind and (thankfully!) was left to decide where to do that on my own.

And for the Chief Pilot or instructor or whatever he calls himself: If he expects me to fly an ILS or a Hold in a slip, he is an idiot. I don't usually judge people that way but someone in a position like that should not be spouting off idiotic statements like that.

After having the aforementioned (double word score) conversation with my CFI today, I had a "chat" with the "check airman" (one of the asst. chiefs) that did my instrument ride about what was so horrible as to be screaming at me prior to my starting the flare.

His "opinion" is that it is wrong to be less than 500 feet and not lined up with the runway, which is why he screamed at me about it. I tried explaining to him that I always "kick" out the crab during the "roundout" which is when I add aileron to correct and he told me (and I quote!) "if you do that on your multi ride or -II ride with me, you will not pass".

So I guess that's where he stands huh?

Anyway, I'm going to make arrangements to take the check rides with another check airman. Something about being 500' AGL on an instrument approach with a 300' AGL MDA and busting because I'm not slipping just doesn't agree with me.

So moving on, thanks to everyone for the input! I just saved myself one if not two "busts" (well...not really since it's a self-examining school, but you know what i mean...) and probably two to three weeks of being out here by reading the posts here, checking it out and dealing with the issue (which I now believe isn't necessarily related to my landings, but the opinion of the "examiner"...pitty...).

So, thanks a million...my wife and I both appreciate it!

-mini

 

[Frmr Avro Drvr]

After having the aforementioned (double word score) conversation with my CFI today, I had a "chat" with the "check airman" (one of the asst. chiefs) that did my instrument ride about what was so horrible as to be screaming at me prior to my starting the flare.

His "opinion" is that it is wrong to be less than 500 feet and not lined up with the runway, which is why he screamed at me about it. I tried explaining to him that I always "kick" out the crab during the "roundout" which is when I add aileron to correct and he told me (and I quote!) "if you do that on your multi ride or -II ride with me, you will not pass".

So I guess that's where he stands huh?


-mini

I am guessing this "Assistant Chief" has never flown anything bigger that a seminole. If he tried to tell an instructor at any of the major Simulator Centers or an airline that he needed to have the nose lined up with the runway 500 feet up they would laugh in his face.

By the way: I looked at the ATP PTS and it doesn't say anything about nose aligned with the runway. In Part 121 (airline) operations we always referred to a stabilized approach below 1000 ft Above Touchdown. It meant on speed, at a realistice descent rate and aligned with the runway. In practical terms it meant that if there were no outside forces to move the airplane from this track (wind gusts, turbulence etc) the aircraft would fly to the touchdown zone with minimal input from the pilot. This isn't realisitic but you get the point. I don't consider having to wrestle the ailerons and rudder for 1000 feet very stabilized and in a large aircraft that is a lot of work. The autopilot doesn't fly with a slip so why do I. At 200 feet when you break out turn off the autopilot and begin the flare. I bet...no I know the aircraft is crabbing until I turn the autopilot off.

Best of luck to you. Hope everything comes out all right. See what the PTS says about approach to landing.

 

[Cat Driver]

and he told me (and I quote!) "if you do that on your multi ride or -II ride with me, you will not pass".

.......................................

He should have his authority to do rides cancelled and be sent back to basic training school as a janitor........forever...

Have you spoke to the FAA about this moron?

Cat Driver

 

[Ralgha]

This really is a funny thread.

I would really like to see someone land a light aircraft without using cross-controls (slip).

Go watch an Aircoupe (sp?) land. You can't cross-control them.

 

[minitour]

Have you spoke to the FAA about this moron?

Cat Driver

No...I'm not gonna go there. I'll be talking to the Dir. of Ops and the Chief Instructor about it, but I'll let them deal with it. I'm not going to get caught up in the politics of contacting the FAA...plus this is going slow enough as it is. The 12 week course is almost at 6 months, so anything I do right now has to be "ass kissing" to try to get this done.

In Part 121 (airline) operations we always referred to a stabilized approach below 1000 ft Above Touchdown. It meant on speed, at a realistice descent rate and aligned with the runway. In practical terms it meant that if there were no outside forces to move the airplane from this track (wind gusts, turbulence etc) the aircraft would fly to the touchdown zone with minimal input from the pilot. This isn't realisitic but you get the point. I don't consider having to wrestle the ailerons and rudder for 1000 feet very stabilized and in a large aircraft that is a lot of work. The autopilot doesn't fly with a slip so why do I. At 200 feet when you break out turn off the autopilot and begin the flare. I bet...no I know the aircraft is crabbing until I turn the autopilot off.
*chop*
Best of luck to you. Hope everything comes out all right. See what the PTS says about approach to landing.

I agree with you on a stabilized descent. As long as I'm riding 55 knots down medium-to-short-final (in the 152) and my direction of motion is lined up with the runway centerline, I don't think it should matter.

With regard to the crosswind landing, the commercial PTS does say:
5. Maintains a stabililzed approach and recommended airspeed, or in its absence, not more than 1.3 Vso, +/-5 knots, with wind gust factor applied.
9. Touches down at or within 200 feet (60 meters) beyond a specified point, with no drift, and with the airplane's longitudinal axis aligned with and over the runway centerline/landing path.
10. Maintains crosswind correction and directional control throughout the approach and landing sequence.

So yes, they want me lined up with the centerline....at touchdown....which I firmly believe in. No way in hell do I want to land sideways or land straight and being blown to one side of the runway. That's just a recipe for bad things to happen. But it doesn't say anywhere about being lined up at a certain altitude or anything.

I don't think it will be a problem. The option to take the check rides with an actual DPE is always there if the chief instructor tells me just it's wrong. I just can't see wrestling with the rudder all the way down final...but that's just me.

It's probably just as easy for me to do it just to get the check ride done and then do it the other way when I'm doing it "for real", but...I don't know...we'll see how it goes with the director of operations and chief instructor.

Thanks again guys!

-mini

 

[Frmr Avro Drvr]

Go watch an Aircoupe (sp?) land. You can't cross-control them.

Ya got me there! I haven't flown one but I would like to see one land in a crosswind. Are the rudder and ailerons connected by bungies or a solid connection? How well do they handle crosswinds?