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Could the avg ME pilot fly a SE ILS to minimums?

  • Thread starter Thread starter apcooper
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Nobody said anything about bravado. All the guy said, and I agree with him, is that no matter what endeavor you engage in you should at least have the confidence to think that you are better at it than at least half of your peers.

No. Bravado is a big part of the thread so far...in fact, what he did say was...

And to answer your question, I've always been a little arrogant, but I can back it up with my flying.

Arrogant, and has a right to be because the proof is in the flying, is that it? Best of the best. Top of the heap. Likes to swagger, and is built stoutly for it, too.

After he's gone, we'll put that up as the epitaph: "AT LEAST HE WAS BETTER THAN THE OTHER HALF."


Has quite a ring to it...
 
Caveman said:
Slowto250,

My wife HATES rocks........ ;-)

With 500 plus posts on here I've been beat on before and, no doubt, will again. Hey, it's just a few words being blasted back and forth. No big deal. Heck this time I'm agreeing with Patmack, but he and I have been at it a few times over freightdog jumpseats. It's just Saturday night and I'm bored and wandering around in cyberland. I used to get worked up over this stupid site but anymore I just post every once in a while and lurk most of the time.

Have a good one.

Caveman,

As a fellow professional, I hope I can count on you not to give out my address. Especially to your wife ! LOL

This board allows one to be a little politically incorrect, without any real reprisals. Perhaps that is it's biggest draw for me.

In 25 or so years of flyin' tin, I have seen maybe 3 or 4 real disagreements with fellow drivers. But, on this board, anonymity seems to make everyone a little testier than usual. Most here keep their views to themselves out on the line, thank God. Otherwise, not many trips would reach the filed dest.
Don't know about you, but whether reading or writing, almost all the time I spend on this site leaves me grinning or laughing out loud.

As they say down under..."Good on ya"
 
Patmack I think you are a bad@ss for selecting into the pointy nose part of the navy. So in my opinion you have already backed up what you have said.

p.S. Why would all the rest of you that are giving him a hard time want him to not think like that. He is a fighter pilot in training and not thinking like that could get him killed just as easily.
 
My short (by some standards) stint in the military and a life long interest in American history reminds me that many times it is the politically savvy Officer gets promoted, the ring knockers, a$$ kissers, and the officers more interested in their own promotion than the task they were appointed for. If my observations during my time in the government will hold true, it is these Officers that will stay after a RIF, not the ones who "will do the best job".

For the relationship of swagger to ability, I recall a 17 year old boy from Texas who was too small to be considered by the Marines and also the Navy during WWII. He went into the Army. He was so sea sick on the boat ride to North Africa that they wanted to send him home as unfit to serve. Yet in three years he went from buck private to (a battle field commission) Lieutenant and earned every medal for bravery this nation can bestow. He was only taken out of action after being wounded while standing on a burning tank firing its machine gun and holding off an attack by a numerically superior force of Germans. Granted luck had a big part in him living so long during the many battles he fought through, but I never read any report that he was "confident" of his ability. His name was Audie Murphy. A true American Hero, IMHO.

I also recall a quote from a P51 pilot in WWII, "There is no ego in a fighter pilots family, the pilot has it all".

And a quote from a "movie star" he said "when you start believing your own press, it is time to leave (the business)".

But hey, what ever floats your boat...

Remind me again what does any of this have to do with an "average pilot" shooting an approach to minimums?

JAFI
 
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Yes, I'm familiar with reduction in force, and yes, I have had to compete. I've always been able to come out ahead, but always trying to hold out a hand to those around me while I do it. I usually carry a bit of a reputation for doing that most places I go. Elevate those around you, you help yourself. That's not touchy feely fern bar crap; it's a true and correct principle of life. Try it some time.

As for being too sensitive, truth be told, I'm one of those folks that can look you in the eye and smile while I put a bullet through your chest.

Is that too sensitive?

Why would all the rest of you that are giving him a hard time want him to not think like that. He is a fighter pilot in training and not thinking like that could get him killed just as easily.

No, and apparently it bears repeating one more time. That attitude will eventually kill him if he fosters it.

The truth is that often its those other 25, the "poor bastards," that are around 25 years later to memorialize the first 25 good bastards, the ones with the swagger, the ones who were so arrogant they bragged about it, the ones who weren't humble enough to know that yes, it really can happen to them.

What has that to do with this thread? Everything. Should most private pilots be able to fly a single engine ILS? Yes, if they're multi engine rated and instrument rated. Yes, they should be able to fly the maneuver with the outcome never seriously in doubt. But that's a far cry from swaggering about and overconfidence. Fast hands in the cockpit kill...folks that reach for levers too quickly, do things without the checklist, that sort of thing. But that's only one trait and characteristic in the cockpit that kills. Overconfidence is another.

Short story long; I was walking on the beach with a friend years ago as he related an incident he had whitnessed a few years prior. It involved watching a friend get killed beneath him. As he flew over, his friend pitched up hard, stalled, and went in, exploding. He watched it happen. As I listened, I was respectful, but in my mind thought that only an idiot would have failed to keep the airplane under control; clearly pilot error I thought. My friend's purpose in telling me the story was to discuss a flight characteristic that one might not discover until it was too late, and he punctuated it with the death of his friend.

I wasn't having any. After all, I'm a pilot, I'm in charge of my aircraft. We parted ways, thanked him for his insight. Fast forward a few years, and I find myself in the same type aircraft. Close to the ground I experienced the same situation that had been described to me; the aircraft went vertical, speed bled off, and the airplane fell out of it. I didn't end up like the individual in the story because the terrain fell off around me; I had instant altitude ahead. But if it had been a plateau or over level ground...I wouldn't be typing this. Funny thing was, when it occured, my helmet got pushed over my eyes, my visor dug into my nose, my chin was in my chest, and I was doing my level best to control the airplane (which wasn't enough), and all I could think about was, "Oh. This is what Al was talking about."

Overconfidence kills.

Should a private pilot be able to execute the maneuver? Sure. And he should be confident in his training enough that he can do it with the outcome never seriously in doubt. That's a basic practical test standard.

Arrogance is something else again; it's overconfidence. I don't care weather one cares to call one's self the tip of the speer or the fist of the fleet or the cats meow. Overconfidence, arrogance, doesn't belong in the cockpit, and yes, it is lethal. It's in no job description I'm aware of. It's an undesirable trait, mostly found in young men who don't know better.
 
Creeping back to the original topic, isn't a partial panel NDB even a little easier than a PP VOR? At least when the needle moves I can tell that I'm getting off heading. Again.

How to outsmart the PP NDB approach.

1) Home on it until you cross the station.
2) Turn to final approach course after passage.
3) Put in 5 degrees for the wind.
4) Pray that the examiner can't tell that you're shooting from the hip.
5) Blame failed attempt on "shoreline effect".

When the examiner says that there is no shoreline within a hundred miles, exclaim "so that's why we're so far off course!"
 
I wasn't talking about doing it well. Just gettin' 'er done.

The PT? Easy. Home direct. Turn to outbound. Fly two minutes. Turn back direct on the PT side. Home direct. Continue as above.

Poor technique, but it actually works.
 
Patmack18 said:
...Lead sled thinks the way I do though. Seriosuly.. if you've got an engine out, are you really gonna go look for an NDB approach????

You are if you can't sustain level flight and all you've got is an NDB approach for another 20 miles.

If you can keep it from descending, then nah...look for the ILS and go down the slide.

NDBs are easy.

Cleared for the approach:
Cross the station
Turn to a 30-degree intercept heading
Wait until you get a 30-degree indication on the ADF (doesn't matter which 30 degrees, that takes care of itself)
Turn to your reference heading (The outbound radial/course heading)
Don't chase the needle until it moves 5 degrees. When/if it does, turn 15 degrees that way and keep it there.

For the PT:
Turn to the "PT Heading" (whatever course reversal you're doing - I'll use the "standard" PT as an example)
Fly for a minute
Standard rate turn for a minute
When you get a 45-degree indication, turn to the inbound heading (that of the inbound course - again, doesn't matter which 45 degrees)
Again, when/if the needle moves 5, turn 15 and keep it there.

For a Hold at an NDB:
Inbound is the same as the approach with the wind corrections.
Std rate turn for 1 minute when you cross the station/fix
Fly outbound until you get a 30-degree indication (still doesn't matter which 30-degree indication, that takes care of itself)
Turn inbound.
You really don't "need" to time the outbound portion of the NDB hold if you use the 30-degree indication (at least for the 172s and stuff like that), but I still do and adjust accordingly.

PP NDBs aren't that difficult if you're good with your Compass and Timed Turns. When you struggle with those, the PP stuff becomes a problem. But seriously, NDBs are easy if you just think about what you want to do before you do it.

-mini

*edit*
This even works with Vectors to the NDB approach, but I'm sure y'all know that...
 
Turn to a 30-degree intercept heading

I find doing 45 degree intercepts are easier since on your ADF you got a tickmark every 45 degrees. Not much thinking... only difference is you gotta make your turns faster ;)
 
Thread Evolution

I love the way these threads evolve.

My thoughts on the first question...

Well, it depends upon what you mean by average. If you're talking about the average commercially flown light twin and flown by the average charter pilot, I doubt if there would be much of an issue. Most of those guys seem to be pretty sharp, fly enough to keep the rust from forming and they are subject to recurrent training and IFR checkrides every 6 months. Those are the guys that you wouldn't think would have a lot of problems. Then there's the average non-professionally flown twin flown by wealthy individuals, doctors, and the like. IF they have been dilligent in keeping current and have received proper and adequate recurrent training then they probably wouldn't have too much of a problem either. Unfortunately, there are those guys who have the money to afford their "trophy twin", but neither the time nor the interest to do the things necessary to be proficient in it. The problem with piston twins is that they all have two engines because they need two engines and when engines fail in the real world it's normally nothing like the carefully choreographed training exercises that most of us are familiar with.

When it comes to our fledgling naval aviator's self confidence...

I'm going to give you a pass for now - the job you're being trained for requires a certain level of "self confidence". Over my career I've had the opportunity to fly with dozens of current and ex-military pilots from all branches of the service. I've seen good military pilots and I've seen ones that didn't quite measure up - and in about the same proportion as the civilian pilots I've flown with. From what I have seen, it all boils down to this: There is generally no substitute for flight time and experience. I'll be the first to admit that flight time isn't everything (I've flown with some high-time bozos.), but you guys know what I'm saying. Experience doesn’t make you manipulate the controls “better”, it allows you to fly “smarter”.

Several years ago, I was an instructor at a 141 flight school that did a lot of "GI Bill" training for military and ex-military pilots. My job was to transition them into the civilian way of doing things and train them for the ME ATP checkride. As I remember, they were given up to 20 hours of flight time to make the transition. I probably worked with 50 different individuals with military experience that ran the whole gamut - fighter, bomber, and transport. The transport guys did the best. They were the ones whose experience most closely paralleled what one would encounter in "the real world" of civilian flying. In most cases, it was very easy to transition these people in the allotted time and they, as a group, did very well on the check ride that followed.

The fighter pilots were an entirely different story. The attributes that make a good fighter pilot do not necessarily make the transition into the civilian world. While most of the transport guys were ready well within the allotted time, almost all of the fighter types required the entire program time allotment and even then, there were a few who were pretty "rough". They were good fighter pilots – they could shoot missiles, guns, dogfight, etc. with the best of them. Unfortunately, these are skills rarely required in today's world of airline and corporate flying. The problem was they were good and they knew it and it was hard to tell them anything - they already knew it all.

Three or four years ago I had the opportunity to fly with a recently retired F-15 fighter pilot. The colonel and I flew an Astra SPX all over the country - a couple of hundred hours worth. On paper, his credentials were impressive - nearly 6,000 hours of jet fighter time and all that goes with it. In reality, his 6,000 hours of military time provided him with an equivalent of perhaps 2,000 hours of civilian experience. Basic things that we would take for granted with a civilian pilot with that amount of time just were not there. Skills like the use of weather radar, FMS operation, etc. and even basic instrument approaches had not been honed because they were of little practical use in the military environment. In this particular pilot's case, he had flown less than 5 actual ILS approaches to minimums during his entire career. (We did more that that the first month we flew together.) He was also not comfortable in serious IFR weather or operating at the various high density airports that we frequented. He was forced to play some serious "catch up ball" if you know what I mean. Again, as I said, there is generally no substitute for flight time and experience.

I remember reading an interview that Bob Hoover gave several years ago. Some one asked him why he never flew his Shrike Commander to the various airshows around the country. His answer was pretty insightful - he said that he could either be a good aerobatic pilot or a good instrument pilot, but he couldn't be both.

You'll have a leg up when your service flying is over, but don’t for a minute think that you’re going to be able to step right out of your military jet into the left seat of a civilian bizjet. It ain't going to happen. In fact, it's going to be pretty tough getting a pilot insured in a corporate jet until he has a minimum of 1500 to 2000 hours total time.

As far as NDB approaches go...

In the real world, they just aren't done that much. Granted, there are isolated airports where they frequently used, but the average working pilot could fly for years without running into one "in the wild". With the proliferation of GPS, there's really no excuse to even do one now except for the entertainment value. In the world of FMS equipped corporate jets you'll never have to do one per se - just about any non-precision approach can be flown with a glideslope.

'Sled
 
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mattpilot said:
I find doing 45 degree intercepts are easier since on your ADF you got a tickmark every 45 degrees. Not much thinking... only difference is you gotta make your turns faster ;)

oops...forgot to include the "or 45"

Good catch.

Plus, sometimes depending on the winds you NEED 45 degrees...

-mini
 

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