Could the avg ME pilot fly a SE ILS to minimums?

[Caveman]

"Put me in a room with 50 other pilots, and tell me that after one eval flight 25 are going to be phased out, and I'm going to get everybody together for a study session in the hopes we can all do our finest, and do my darndest to help anybody who needs or wants it. Then I'm going to go fly, and not give a whit about "who is the best."

You know...do my job.

That kind of thinking, "who's the best," is childish and melodramatic, and is best left to Tom Cruise on the silver screen...certainly it has no place in a professional cockpit. Military or otherwise.

I don't see pilots in the cockpit with me or in the air nearby as competition. They're team mates; we're all working for the same team, for the same goal, and seeing who is best or trying to think in those terms can do no good."

Avbug,

You win the First Annual Aviation PC CRM Speech award with that little diatribe. Lighten the hell up will ya. Jeez, you sound like Ward scolding the Beaver. News flash!! Most pilots worth a **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** are bit arrogant. It's part of the job description.

Let me guess, you call it a 'flightdeck' don't you? Don't wanna offend any women that might be part of the crew.

BTW, count me in the half looking at the other 25 poor bastards.

What the hell did ya expect from a guy with tag like "Caveman"?

 

[Ralgha]

Most pilots worth a **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** are bit arrogant. It's part of the job description.

Bull**CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED**. The arrogant pilots are usually closer to the middle or bottom of the pack. Glad I don't fly with punks who think they're God's gift to aviation.

 

[slowto250]

Reminds me of that old joke:

Why did cavemen drag their women around by the hair ?
Because when when they dragged em by the ankles, they filled up with rocks.

BTW Caveman, with a name like that I'm sure you CAN take it, but be prepared for a beatdown, Flightinfo style....


INCOMING !

 

[Caveman]

"Bull**CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED **. The arrogant pilots are usually closer to the middle or bottom of the pack. Glad I don't fly with punks who think they're God's gift to aviation."

Simple question for you Ralgha. Are you better than at least half of the other pilots you know or worse? Don't give me any PC crap either. Simple question, simple answer. Better or worse?

If you say better, you're a hypocrit. If you say worse, then I know why you are defending this PC garbage. I'm betting you won't even answer.

I'm better. I didn't say the best. Patmack is better. He didn't say the best either. It IS all about confidence, not holier than thou. But that's how you and Avbug come off sounding with that we're all equal group hug bull**CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED**, holier than thou.

 

[avbug]

I'm not ward, but I do know a lot of dead folks with attitudes such as Patmacks'.

I recall many moons ago being given a little speech one evening by a wise individual regarding leadership. We talked about a certain person he'd known who didn't view leadership as lording over, but lording with. He was the one guy who set time aside to tutor, even the little things, from shoe shining to cleaning a weapon. That individual recognized that if he raised up everybody else around him, he raised himself up. Come time for pass and review, his unit received top honors. Seems everywhere he went, the same thing happened.

Those other twenty five bastards are on the same team. You have not to like it, only to do it. That should sound familiar.

Most pilots worth a **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** are bit arrogant. It's part of the job description.

No, it really isn't. Safely operates aircraft on mission/to destination. Makes sound judgement-based decisions regarding weather, fuel loading, takeoff and climb performance, payload, mission parameters, etc. Works toward mission goal as team member. Performs assigned tasks as required, yada, yada, yada. Don't ever recall seeing, "needs to be a bit arrogant," as part of any job description. Where did you see this description?

Me, politically correct? I'll call the cockpit whatever you want. Flight deck. Office. Cockpit. Forward seating area. Mental deconstruction zone. Whatever. If anything, I'm probably a little less than politically correct...and I don't post things here unless I mean it.

One thing I do not want on my team is an arrogant pilot...one who has some kind of mental chip on his shoulder about who is "best." I prefer adults, and I can't depend on some weakminded dingbat who is too worried about weather his fly zips tighter than the next guy, who obcesses with being the best vs. being a professional team member, and who can't stand up straight when he walks. If you do happen to swagger, perhaps it's better that you don't know that all you leave behind your back are snickers and smirks. Nobody is impressed but in the level of childishness that bravado brings. Check it when you move up to junior high.

 

[qmaster3]

Ladies,

Losers talk about being the best.

The Winners Are getting laid.

 

[Caveman]

What the hell does confidence have to do with having a mental chip? Nobody said anything about bravado. All the guy said, and I agree with him, is that no matter what endeavor you engage in you should at least have the confidence to think that you are better at it than at least half of your peers. You're the one that turned this into some touchy feely love thy neighbor help everyone achieve mediocrity never leave anyone behind I'll do whatever I can to make every one the best they can be blah, blah, blah.

I'll do all that too and then go on quietly about my business believing I'm better than at least half of them. You do too, but you're not honest about it. Are you really trying to tell me that you don't secretly think you're a better pilot than half of the pilots you know? Tell the truth.....

 

[Caveman]

Slowto250,

My wife HATES rocks........ ;-)

With 500 plus posts on here I've been beat on before and, no doubt, will again. Hey, it's just a few words being blasted back and forth. No big deal. Heck this time I'm agreeing with Patmack, but he and I have been at it a few times over freightdog jumpseats. It's just Saturday night and I'm bored and wandering around in cyberland. I used to get worked up over this stupid site but anymore I just post every once in a while and lurk most of the time.

Have a good one.

 

[Caveman]

Boy, talk about thread creep. This one doesn't even remotely resemble the topic anymore.

 

[stingray]

Caveman I agree with this point
the average non-professional pilot, has no business shooting approachs to mins in normal circumstances.
I use to fly fulltime in the northeast for Capeair, it took me a couple of months to warm up to that type of flying in hard IFR for days strait and shooting hard approachs to mins on nantucket. I take a day or 2 off and then come back to the same type of flying it takes a little time to get back in the groove, and that is from someone who is use to it.
You need to be doing it on a regular basis with a good frequency to be competent at it.
" Just because someone is a mulit-inst rated even with a comm or ATP rating and is current, it doesn't mean SH*T." Weve all seen some pilot with a new rating thinking they where the king, and they knew it all, and they did not know squat, we've all been there at one time or another.
Who first said
"Know Your Own Limitations" When first attemtping real IFR approachs, Set your own mins higher then published, example if its 200 make it 600 or higher, Ask yourself do you realy need to be shooting a real approach to real mins or what ever the weather is at, a pilot needs to give themself a way out and some need a bigger way out then others based on the expeirence and recency of it they have, and are they competent at it. unless they whant a short life span, make the proper adjustments for your given expierence. Expiernece and competence are 2 different things. one does not mean you have the other
Fly Safe
Before anyone says anything I know my spelling stinks

 

[avbug]

Nobody said anything about bravado. All the guy said, and I agree with him, is that no matter what endeavor you engage in you should at least have the confidence to think that you are better at it than at least half of your peers.

No. Bravado is a big part of the thread so far...in fact, what he did say was...

And to answer your question, I've always been a little arrogant, but I can back it up with my flying.

Arrogant, and has a right to be because the proof is in the flying, is that it? Best of the best. Top of the heap. Likes to swagger, and is built stoutly for it, too.

After he's gone, we'll put that up as the epitaph: "AT LEAST HE WAS BETTER THAN THE OTHER HALF."


Has quite a ring to it...

 

[slowto250]

Slowto250,

My wife HATES rocks........ ;-)

With 500 plus posts on here I've been beat on before and, no doubt, will again. Hey, it's just a few words being blasted back and forth. No big deal. Heck this time I'm agreeing with Patmack, but he and I have been at it a few times over freightdog jumpseats. It's just Saturday night and I'm bored and wandering around in cyberland. I used to get worked up over this stupid site but anymore I just post every once in a while and lurk most of the time.

Have a good one.

Caveman,

As a fellow professional, I hope I can count on you not to give out my address. Especially to your wife ! LOL

This board allows one to be a little politically incorrect, without any real reprisals. Perhaps that is it's biggest draw for me.

In 25 or so years of flyin' tin, I have seen maybe 3 or 4 real disagreements with fellow drivers. But, on this board, anonymity seems to make everyone a little testier than usual. Most here keep their views to themselves out on the line, thank God. Otherwise, not many trips would reach the filed dest.
Don't know about you, but whether reading or writing, almost all the time I spend on this site leaves me grinning or laughing out loud.

As they say down under..."Good on ya"

 

[peter185]

Patmack I think you are a bad@ss for selecting into the pointy nose part of the navy. So in my opinion you have already backed up what you have said.

p.S. Why would all the rest of you that are giving him a hard time want him to not think like that. He is a fighter pilot in training and not thinking like that could get him killed just as easily.

 

[JAFI]

My short (by some standards) stint in the military and a life long interest in American history reminds me that many times it is the politically savvy Officer gets promoted, the ring knockers, a$$ kissers, and the officers more interested in their own promotion than the task they were appointed for. If my observations during my time in the government will hold true, it is these Officers that will stay after a RIF, not the ones who "will do the best job".

For the relationship of swagger to ability, I recall a 17 year old boy from Texas who was too small to be considered by the Marines and also the Navy during WWII. He went into the Army. He was so sea sick on the boat ride to North Africa that they wanted to send him home as unfit to serve. Yet in three years he went from buck private to (a battle field commission) Lieutenant and earned every medal for bravery this nation can bestow. He was only taken out of action after being wounded while standing on a burning tank firing its machine gun and holding off an attack by a numerically superior force of Germans. Granted luck had a big part in him living so long during the many battles he fought through, but I never read any report that he was "confident" of his ability. His name was Audie Murphy. A true American Hero, IMHO.

I also recall a quote from a P51 pilot in WWII, "There is no ego in a fighter pilots family, the pilot has it all".

And a quote from a "movie star" he said "when you start believing your own press, it is time to leave (the business)".

But hey, what ever floats your boat...

Remind me again what does any of this have to do with an "average pilot" shooting an approach to minimums?

JAFI

 

[avbug]

Yes, I'm familiar with reduction in force, and yes, I have had to compete. I've always been able to come out ahead, but always trying to hold out a hand to those around me while I do it. I usually carry a bit of a reputation for doing that most places I go. Elevate those around you, you help yourself. That's not touchy feely fern bar crap; it's a true and correct principle of life. Try it some time.

As for being too sensitive, truth be told, I'm one of those folks that can look you in the eye and smile while I put a bullet through your chest.

Is that too sensitive?

Why would all the rest of you that are giving him a hard time want him to not think like that. He is a fighter pilot in training and not thinking like that could get him killed just as easily.

No, and apparently it bears repeating one more time. That attitude will eventually kill him if he fosters it.

The truth is that often its those other 25, the "poor bastards," that are around 25 years later to memorialize the first 25 good bastards, the ones with the swagger, the ones who were so arrogant they bragged about it, the ones who weren't humble enough to know that yes, it really can happen to them.

What has that to do with this thread? Everything. Should most private pilots be able to fly a single engine ILS? Yes, if they're multi engine rated and instrument rated. Yes, they should be able to fly the maneuver with the outcome never seriously in doubt. But that's a far cry from swaggering about and overconfidence. Fast hands in the cockpit kill...folks that reach for levers too quickly, do things without the checklist, that sort of thing. But that's only one trait and characteristic in the cockpit that kills. Overconfidence is another.

Short story long; I was walking on the beach with a friend years ago as he related an incident he had whitnessed a few years prior. It involved watching a friend get killed beneath him. As he flew over, his friend pitched up hard, stalled, and went in, exploding. He watched it happen. As I listened, I was respectful, but in my mind thought that only an idiot would have failed to keep the airplane under control; clearly pilot error I thought. My friend's purpose in telling me the story was to discuss a flight characteristic that one might not discover until it was too late, and he punctuated it with the death of his friend.

I wasn't having any. After all, I'm a pilot, I'm in charge of my aircraft. We parted ways, thanked him for his insight. Fast forward a few years, and I find myself in the same type aircraft. Close to the ground I experienced the same situation that had been described to me; the aircraft went vertical, speed bled off, and the airplane fell out of it. I didn't end up like the individual in the story because the terrain fell off around me; I had instant altitude ahead. But if it had been a plateau or over level ground...I wouldn't be typing this. Funny thing was, when it occured, my helmet got pushed over my eyes, my visor dug into my nose, my chin was in my chest, and I was doing my level best to control the airplane (which wasn't enough), and all I could think about was, "Oh. This is what Al was talking about."

Overconfidence kills.

Should a private pilot be able to execute the maneuver? Sure. And he should be confident in his training enough that he can do it with the outcome never seriously in doubt. That's a basic practical test standard.

Arrogance is something else again; it's overconfidence. I don't care weather one cares to call one's self the tip of the speer or the fist of the fleet or the cats meow. Overconfidence, arrogance, doesn't belong in the cockpit, and yes, it is lethal. It's in no job description I'm aware of. It's an undesirable trait, mostly found in young men who don't know better.

 

[100LL... Again!]

Creeping back to the original topic, isn't a partial panel NDB even a little easier than a PP VOR? At least when the needle moves I can tell that I'm getting off heading. Again.

How to outsmart the PP NDB approach.

1) Home on it until you cross the station.
2) Turn to final approach course after passage.
3) Put in 5 degrees for the wind.
4) Pray that the examiner can't tell that you're shooting from the hip.
5) Blame failed attempt on "shoreline effect".

When the examiner says that there is no shoreline within a hundred miles, exclaim "so that's why we're so far off course!"

 

[Lead Sled]

NDB approach??? Isn't that some sort of emergency manuever?

'Sled

 

[100LL... Again!]

I wasn't talking about doing it well. Just gettin' 'er done.

The PT? Easy. Home direct. Turn to outbound. Fly two minutes. Turn back direct on the PT side. Home direct. Continue as above.

Poor technique, but it actually works.

 

[minitour]

...Lead sled thinks the way I do though. Seriosuly.. if you've got an engine out, are you really gonna go look for an NDB approach????

You are if you can't sustain level flight and all you've got is an NDB approach for another 20 miles.

If you can keep it from descending, then nah...look for the ILS and go down the slide.

NDBs are easy.

Cleared for the approach:
Cross the station
Turn to a 30-degree intercept heading
Wait until you get a 30-degree indication on the ADF (doesn't matter which 30 degrees, that takes care of itself)
Turn to your reference heading (The outbound radial/course heading)
Don't chase the needle until it moves 5 degrees. When/if it does, turn 15 degrees that way and keep it there.

For the PT:
Turn to the "PT Heading" (whatever course reversal you're doing - I'll use the "standard" PT as an example)
Fly for a minute
Standard rate turn for a minute
When you get a 45-degree indication, turn to the inbound heading (that of the inbound course - again, doesn't matter which 45 degrees)
Again, when/if the needle moves 5, turn 15 and keep it there.

For a Hold at an NDB:
Inbound is the same as the approach with the wind corrections.
Std rate turn for 1 minute when you cross the station/fix
Fly outbound until you get a 30-degree indication (still doesn't matter which 30-degree indication, that takes care of itself)
Turn inbound.
You really don't "need" to time the outbound portion of the NDB hold if you use the 30-degree indication (at least for the 172s and stuff like that), but I still do and adjust accordingly.

PP NDBs aren't that difficult if you're good with your Compass and Timed Turns. When you struggle with those, the PP stuff becomes a problem. But seriously, NDBs are easy if you just think about what you want to do before you do it.

-mini

*edit*
This even works with Vectors to the NDB approach, but I'm sure y'all know that...

 

[mattpilot]

Turn to a 30-degree intercept heading

I find doing 45 degree intercepts are easier since on your ADF you got a tickmark every 45 degrees. Not much thinking... only difference is you gotta make your turns faster