Corporate SIC?

[Buckeye]

It seen a lot of jobs for SIC/ Co-pilot on many different types of jets that only pay $25,000 to maybe $32,000. Most of these jobs are for Lear 35's and CE-550's. Is this typical? The reason I am asking is, that I know a lot of guys that are the "Chief Pilot" of a 1 plane 2 pilot operation, that operate like this. I know for a fact that the "Chief Pilot" is making quite a bit of money may be even more than he should, and the other guy is scraping to get by. Is this type of scenerio ego driven or greed driven. I have spoken to a few of these guys and they make it sound like they are doing someone a favor to allow to be their co-pilot and get paid for it. All of their aircraft are required two pilot operations (all Part 91). Or is this driven by the current state of economics. I would think that these individuals aren't helping the welfare of aviation.

 

[banned username 2]

Unfortunately there are a lot of little operators out there like this... I think it is mainly the Chief Pilot keeping his budget down... who knows... Those are typically the companies you don't want to work for...

We start our first year new hires at $75,000 - $80,000 plus bonuses and full benefits (Pension, 401k, medical insurance, life insurance, profit sharing, etc...)

Look for the larger companies, you will usually get a better deal... Unfortunately their requirements are usually much higher...

 

[Country Wild]

I hate to see young, eager pilots get explotiated by such individuals. It happens here where I live as well.

 

[GIVJoc]

There are many 135 ops scattered around that use and abuse as a function of SOP. When I initially broke into the 135-jet arena my first job was that way. Low pay, ridiculous hours, crappy trips and questionable maintance.

Management played favorites openly and a few BAD brown-nosers were given primo schedules and ALWAYS got the good trips regardless of who was first up.

As a rule of thumb, if you are a low-timer take the job, get the hours, realize exactly what you are getting into, watch your finances while you are there and understand that you most likely won’t stay more than two years tops.

The east coast op I started out with did business that way and still does to this very day. I occasionally run into a crew on a trip, we get to chitchatting and I find that nothing has changed.

The starting pay is EXACTLY the same as it was when I was there in the mid early to mid 90’s.


Oh PS

Falcon Capt. I think I accidentally hit the “report this post to a moderator” link while monkeying around with my mouse… sorry!

GIV Joc

 

[CatYaaak]

It seen a lot of jobs for SIC/ Co-pilot on many different types of jets that only pay $25,000 to maybe $32,000. Most of these jobs are for Lear 35's and CE-550's. Is this typical? The reason I am asking is, that I know a lot of guys that are the "Chief Pilot" of a 1 plane 2 pilot operation, that operate like this. I know for a fact that the "Chief Pilot" is making quite a bit of money may be even more than he should, and the other guy is scraping to get by. Is this type of scenerio ego driven or greed driven. I have spoken to a few of these guys and they make it sound like they are doing someone a favor to allow to be their co-pilot and get paid for it. All of their aircraft are required two pilot operations (all Part 91). Or is this driven by the current state of economics. I would think that these individuals aren't helping the welfare of aviation.

First, if you are talking about a Part 91 corporate job (not Part 135 charter) then I agree those salaries are low. However, keep in mind that the two particular types you list (CE-550 & LR-35) have historically always been the lowest paying; pilots with experience in both abound, so part of the answer can be chalked up to the laws of supply and demand.

Personally, I think the salary of such a position should be much higher, because in our profession I think responsibility for lives and company assets trumps unadultarated supply and demand. As far as relative salaries go, a baseline rule of thumb is that an F/O's salary should be about 60% of a Captain's...as in a line Captain...who's duties consist of piloting the aircraft and all that entails, and not much else.

Now, I'm not going to defend anyone's over-inflated ego ruling over a little aviation fiefdom, or outright greed if indeed it applies, but I sensed a semi-faceciousness to your use of "Chief Pilot" (perhaps it was your use of quotation marks), so I'm going to play the role of the devil's advocate (since I think we all agree nobody wants to work for an egomaniac).

You frame your question regarding the disparity as if there can be only two possible answers; "Is this scenario ego or greed driven?" Ask yourself this. How many "hats" do the Chief Pilots in question wear? Many Chief Pilots in these operations are completely unsupported in what they do, and wear the hats of Captain, Chief Pilot, Director of Ops & Mx, and Dispatcher all at once. As the focal point of the Company's attention for their multi-million dollar asset, such a Chief Pilot writes endless reports, submits budgets and forecasts, contracts mx and shepherds the aircraft through inspections, educates bean-counters, control costs, answer for any screw-ups, and generally make sure everbody's a happy camper, not least of which is the FAA. I did it for 4 years (and yes, I made sure the F/Os were well-paid), but believe me, BY FAR the easiest part of the job was playing "line Captain". Handing in the paperwork for that particular flight/trip and then going home after tidying up the airplane is unthinkable.

My question to you is this; if you got a LR-35 SIC position that paid $45,000 per year to start, but found out your Chief Pilot was making $100,000 would you feel slighted? You would only be making 45% of his salary. Are the duties and responsiblities above and beyond a regular line Captain's job worth that extra 15%? Do you think the Company thinks it's worth it?

Now, if the Chief Pilots you refer to DO have other in-house Company employees to support them (a chief of Mx to deal with all Mx issues, a Dept. Manager to deal with personnel issues and the FAA, a dispatcher to make travel arrangements, etc.) and such a disparity does exist, then your observation has merit.

If you ever get a chance to manage such a flight department, do it. Don't plan on having much of a life, but it will give you a whole new perspective on what keeps and operation ready to go and in the air.

 

[CatYaaak]

I hate to see young, eager pilots get explotiated by such individuals. It happens here where I live as well.

It happens everywhere, but if we're thanking people for low salaries don't forget to thank the umpteen-thousands of young pilots eager to BE eploited, most notably by lining up to fly for regional airlines (so much for the power of unions). Their starting salaries are considerably lower than the ones cited in the original post. Many major airlines first-year pay is in the 20s/30s..that is, when they were hiring.

 

[jeb]

Buckeye: What a Chief Pilot makes is between him and the CEO.
Like CATYAAK stated Chief Pilots wear many differant hats. I will agree with Falcon CPT that some try to keep the operating cost down which I don't agree with . I worked for a guy 12 years ago that did this and still does to this day. We use the NBAA salary figures for our region. With this said I have four resumes that pilot will work for the minimum and will do office work when not flying. We even had a local pilot from a regional airline leave a voice mail to the CEO that he will work for 150.00 per day. When pilots do this I believe it hurts our industry. Also local economics plays a role in the pay scale. Do to the insurance requirements now I am restricted by experience level on helping local CFI's and pilots to build jet time. This has changed come about since 9/11. Falcon CPT has a point, can try and go with a large flight department.