Corporate Shuttle

[Peardc10]

Looking for advice for a corporate shuttle, looking for an aircraft that would meet our companies objectives.

Aircraft that is fuel efficient for short haul routes, has good short field capabilities- 3500 ft runways, yet could carry out other missions through out the US. Since we operate in the Northern US, would also like the a/c to have a APU for winter time operation. The aircraft would need to haul 8 passengers and be economically feasible.

I am in the early stages of gathering information and would like any informative comments that could help me out. This is not a done deal yet, but would like any valuable information you could provide.

Thanks for your help.

 

[Capthuff]

If I remember correctly the Brasillia has an APU. I would think it would be good for short hauls and longer hauls as well. If you dont need an APU get a King Air 350. But if you want a jet - try the Citation Excel... excellant short field capabilities.

Depends on your budget.

Cappy

 

[banned username 2]

Looking for advice for a corporate shuttle, looking for an aircraft that would meet our companies objectives.

Aircraft that is fuel efficient for short haul routes, has good short field capabilities- 3500 ft runways, yet could carry out other missions through out the US. Since we operate in the Northern US, would also like the a/c to have a APU for winter time operation. The aircraft would need to haul 8 passengers and be economically feasible.

I am in the early stages of gathering information and would like any informative comments that could help me out. This is not a done deal yet, but would like any valuable information you could provide.

Thanks for your help.

Falcon 50EX... Good short field performance, good economy, coast-to-coast range, can carry 9+ passengers, has an APU...

 

[h25b]

We operated a Saab shuttle for about 2 years, it didn't work out well...

There were 4 built by Saab as corporate versions from the start. All have APU's installed in the aft portion that can be operated in the air. The main problem with ours was the fact that it was soo heavy on empty weight combined with the fact that it was an A model which is under powered to begin with. An example, level at 12000' in icing conditions we were unable to make it to 14000' to get in the clear with the engine anti-ice on...

Also, the best TAS we ever saw was 245 kts... Pretty slow, especially if your passengers are used to traveling at jet speed.

The other problem we ran in to was support. Seemed like that there were very few loaner parts available and it took forever to get anything.

"B" models might not be that bad, I've never flown one...

As for the prop brake, I don't know how that works we never used ours. In Chautauqua's A models the thing was disabled.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

3500' strips
APU
8 Pax
Good Performance
Reliability
Decent Range


I agree.....sounds like a Falcon 50EX to me!

Can you live without the APU and the Range and dont mind looking ar props??...maybe a King Air 200/200/350???

 

[CL600Pilot]

I'll throw my support for the King Air. You can't beat the King Air 350 for this type mission - but it is a turboprop and has no APU.

CL

 

[2000flyer]

There are plenty of aircraft out there that would fill your needs based on the info you've provided. However, more information will give us a better understanding.

What is your typical mission length?
How often do you need to go "throughout the U.S."?
etc.

There are a host of Citations out there that would fit most of your needs, however, the 3500' runway will pose problems, even for the Citation. As I'm sure you're aware, toss in a little water, slush or snow, and you'll be limited on that runway.

As far as an aicraft with an APU, you're talking larger, which again will limit your operations at that short field.

Yes, the CRJ would be a nice aircraft to shuttle pax around in, however, I'm sure you don't need a 50 pax aircraft for 8 passengers. The few turbo props that are out there will fill many needs, but will make long flights a hassle if you need to stop and refuel.

I flew a C501 for several years and it was common to load 7 pax and luggage (a tight fit) and fly our routine shuttle run. However, with a full load of people and winter headwinds, we sometimes had to stop for fuel on a 380NM flight. The Citation II later cured that problem.

Now, if you have frequent flights 1200 NM or more, the 50/50EX stands out. Great short field performance, excellent range, etc. There are a number of used straight 50s on the market that have already received their RVSM / TCAS / TAWS approval. A few have the engine / avionics upgrades as well. However, maintenance on Falcons isn't inexpensive and, with all aircraft, the old they are, generally speaking, the more the maintenance costs.

I'd, of course, recommend the 2000. Good short field performance (though 3500 feet poses some problems), outstanding fuel specifics. Fantastic cabin for short or long flights. Used 2000's can be had starting at $16M or so. But, I'm biased!

Regards,
2000Flyer

 

[falconpileit]

DA-20

Falcon 20 will do all that you require.

 

[Peardc10]

Additional Information

Our typical shuttle mission would be under 300nm. We would run the shuttle probably 3 times a week with the other days to allow travel to other plants in the US. This would include trips to FL, AZ and to the East Coast.

I would like to keep the price of the a/c under 10Million, probably less if possible. When I said the a/c needed to get into 3500 ft strips-reality is its closer to 4500 ft. There is one location that is 3500 ft. If conditions are not right, we have a close alternate airport with a longer runway.

I appreciate all the input, the information you provided has given me some good ideas to think over. I'll be gathering and reviewing a lot of material in the next few months.

Thanks again!

 

[msw]

You'll have to let us know what you end up getting (and why you got it), when you finally get it. Inquiring mimes want to know!

 

[Rick1128]

Based on your information, I would suggest you look at the HS125. The 700 or 800 would work. I have flown into 4500 ft runways on a regular basis. And a 3500' runway wouldn't be a problem on a controlled basis.

If you look at a 700, look for -3D engines or -4 engines. Even without t/r's short runways are comfortable.

 

[banned username 2]

Re: Additional Information

Our typical shuttle mission would be under 300nm. We would run the shuttle probably 3 times a week with the other days to allow travel to other plants in the US. This would include trips to FL, AZ and to the East Coast.

I would like to keep the price of the a/c under 10Million, probably less if possible. When I said the a/c needed to get into 3500 ft strips-reality is its closer to 4500 ft. There is one location that is 3500 ft. If conditions are not right, we have a close alternate airport with a longer runway.

I appreciate all the input, the information you provided has given me some good ideas to think over. I'll be gathering and reviewing a lot of material in the next few months.

Thanks again!

You can pick up an older (straight) Falcon 50 for around $10 million... It would completely meet all the needs you laid out (including the 3,500 ft runway capability)

Example:

You could take 8 passengers (1600 lbs) and bags (200 lbs) on a 20°C day (68°F) at 500 ft. MSL and fly from Chicago to Denver non-stop out of the 3,500 ft long runway you described.

You could also fly non-stop from your AZ location to the east coast as well as from the east coast to California non-stop...

Hope this helps...

 

[Gulfstream 200]

10 Mil puts the DA50EX out of range I guess...
but DA50's with the 3D engines are out there in the 8-10 mil range and will do the trick just fine! I have seen some with the proline glass cockpit mods also. Pretty nice! A little small inside but the performance of the Falcons on short strips is legendary. Simple to fly and very low ref speeds would make 4500ft very comfortable and 3500' do-able I would think.

Hawker 125? do they have APUs? I also thought they were runway and MX hogs? Never flew one though...

 

[Rick1128]

125's

Yes they have APU's. They are inspection hogs. If maintained properly the later ones seem to do alright. For landing, I don;t think there is anything that can beat them. And for takeoff, it has a big fat wing. Short runways, you need to watch your weight. The 800 would be a better choice. Many of the 700's are on the heavy side.

 

[Jeff Helgeson]

HS-125 vs Falcon 50

If given the choice, I would go with the Falcon. You have received some good advice and it would seem obvious that you need a jet and not a turbo prop.

If price is a factor, you can pick up a Hawker for 1/4 of the price of the Falcon. Some pitfalls to consider. The radio requirements for 1000' seperation starting 2004 is an $800,000 modification. If you don't get the mod., you won't be able to go above FL290. Then there is always the TKS system!

I had flown the HS125-400 conversion from DCA to LAS a number of times, landing with just over 2000lbs in the tanks. It had both the ventral and dorsal aux tanks installed. It made for interesting departures of of RWY 15 departing south!

If you go with the Hawker, the 800 would give you a little better range, external lav. dump. A 700 would handle the shorter hauls with ease and be a bit of stretch on the longer hauls. VMO .755 mach.

The stand up cabin and APU are nice features of the Hawker, with 8-9 seats. The APU air is very loud campared to other types.

My advise would be to look at the performance and maintenance requirements between the aircraft and make the choice. The Hs-125 requires around 3-4 hours of MX for every flight hour. Your mileage may vary.

Good luck

 

[falconpileit]

hawker NO

Course the Hawker is a piece of crap airplane compared to the Falcon.........but that's just an opinion

 

[Peardc10]

Option 2

If the CEO says we need a aircraft that could handle more than 10-15 people, then what?

A lot of airlines are in trouble, which is unfortunate. However, there may be some good buys on the market, it is a buyers market in the aviation industry-for those who have the money.
Maybe a used RJ or something similiar. Of course this could limit our mission capabilities depending on the a/c.

Any thoughts?

Thanks

 

[Fr8Dog]

I have seen a CRJ that was in exec configuration somewhere not to long ago, and now there is the Embraer Legacy with 18 pax in exec configuration, and 37 in shuttle with a range of 3,200nm but I am not sure about the short field stuff. What about something like a Beech 1900, Saab340, or EMB-120 for the short shuttle trips with the 10-15 people on board and the longer trips if you had say 5-8 in something like a Falcon 50? Just a thought. Good luck to you.

 

[bman]

The dornier 328 prop and jet would be perfect. Unlike the Corp a/c that everyone has been mentioning. Those a/c are made to run with a very high number of cycles. They both have fabulous shortfield performance (much better than F2000) and can be had very cheaply nowadays.

Several companies use one or the other. Bellsouth, corning

Good luck

 

[750driver]

The dornier 328 prop and jet would be perfect. Unlike the Corp a/c that everyone has been mentioning. Those a/c are made to run with a very high number of cycles. They both have fabulous shortfield performance (much better than F2000) and can be had very cheaply nowadays. Several companies use one or the other. Bellsouth, corning. Good luck

The only factor that would scare me away from the Dornier is future factory / parts support.

 

[501261]

A Citation Excel (C56XL) meets every one of your requirements. Seats 8, has an APU, burns about 200 gallons on a 300nm flight, can go out of a 3500 strip, does 420knots at FL430, easy 1700nm range, standup cabin, the CEO will be very pleased! Most are still under warranty and there are quite a few deals to be had in the used Excel market (99's for under $7M)!

 

[girlpilot]

I have seen a CRJ that was in exec configuration somewhere not to long ago, and now there is the Embraer Legacy with 18 pax in exec configuration, and 37 in shuttle with a range of 3,200nm but I am not sure about the short field stuff.

I hear the Embraer Legacy shuttle has low operating costs and high dispatch reliability. I think Conoco and Intel both operate Legacy shuttles. And Indigo is running them between MDW and TEB with 16 pax. Their interior is huge compared to Citations, Falcons, Hawkers, etc. and they're meant for airline work so they're cheap to operate.

 

[banned username 2]

I hear the Embraer Legacy shuttle has low operating costs and high dispatch reliability. I think Conoco and Intel both operate Legacy shuttles. And Indigo is running them between MDW and TEB with 16 pax. Their interior is huge compared to Citations, Falcons, Hawkers, etc. and they're meant for airline work so they're cheap to operate.

Yeah but check the runway numbers on those things... it'll never make a 3,500 ft runway... probably not even a 4,500 ft runway...

None of the "RJ's" will... Except maybe the DO-328Jet...

 

[2000flyer]

I had a chance to tour the Legacy last summer. The flight deck is spacious! Even a Global Express commented at the size (bigger than the GLEX). As for the cabin, the "corporate" version took out the center isle (to have a true flat floor). This cut a few inches out of the headroom. I believe the cabin height was less than the Gulfstream, Challenger and Falcons. The shuttle version, I've heard, has the center isle. Whatever your taste I guess.

I don't remember specifically, but the DOCs were low, as was the purchase price. You're getting an airplane that is very comparible to the GV / GLEX in cabin size at a fraction the cost. However, Falcon Capt. is right on the runway numbers.

Get a copy of B/CA's Planning and Purchasing handbook. They will have a host of numbers you can study while making your decision.

2000Flyer

 

[Rick1128]

First you need to find out what the boss MUST have. Speed, Lav, standup cabin, etc. Then find out what he would like to have. I would suggest that you don't try to fill all the 'would like to have's'. You will end up with too much aircraft. Once you get beyond 9 passenger seats the size and cost of the aircraft increases dramaticly. How often does the boss want to carry more than 9 passengers? If it is once in awhile, make two trips. Basicly, you have to make and keep the boss happy. If he' shappy with the aircraft, things go smoother.

Also consider that when companies get their first aircraft, they tend to underestimate their usage. I went to work for one company that programed their usage at 400 - 500 hours a year. The first year, we flew just under 900 hours. Companies tend to find uses for their aircraft that they had not considered. You might want to give consideration to two aircraft. A turboprop for the shuttle, like a KA200. And a jet for the longer range missions.

I would also consider stay a far under budget as possible. Too many coporate operations have been closed over budget issues. Being under budget makes it less likely. Not impossible. Just less likely. But most important, keep the boss happy and keep him part of the process.