Controllers - VFR Radar Service

[minitour]

Hey big question for you:

Okay, well I've always gotten (or at least requested) VFR flight following when doing a VFR x-c. My instructor and I were out the other day on a 50nm day VFR XC and we got on with approach (Class C) and got the radar service.

When we were leaving their airspace to the north, we got:

"Cessna 123 radar services terminated"

I called back:
"roger, thanks for your help today, sir, Cessna 123"

Immediately my CFI switched frequency to Tower at our destination...

Now I'm not saying that this is wrong, but it concerned me that we didn't get "Frequency Change Approved"

I read a while back (I think an AOPA mag) where if you don't hear it, you don't do it (ie "Squawk VFR" or "Frequency Change Approved"). I guess the thought was that just because radar service is terminated doesn't mean he doesn't want to talk to you. Just that he/she is not giving you radar services (separation, traffic service, etc.).

My CFI told me I was wrong (of course), so I just wanted to check it with you guys. Do you usually or always or sometimes or whatever say "frequency change approved"?

Also, inbound to land back home the other day (solo XC) I got "Radar services terminated frequency change approved tower is on XXX.XX today"

Me: "Roger thanks for the help, switching to tower, cessna 123"

I kept the code up because I wasn't told "Squawk VFR". Do you think I pi$$ed someone off?

Thanks for the help on that guys and/or gals!

-mini

 

[realityman]

Hmmmmm.......Good questions! It's been a while since I had to give those issues any thought, but I'll try to answer as best I can.

As far as squawking VFR, I don't do it unless I'm specifically told to do it. Usually, when a controller wants you to squawk 1200, he/she will state "squawk VFR". I've been doing it that way for years and no one seems to have gotten upset with me.

As for changing frequencies, I believe your instructor is wrong and you are right. ATC pretty much always will say "frequency change approved" when you can leave the frequency. I say "pretty much always" because sometimes when they're busy they forget about you and fail to tell you to switch frequencies. But if they don't tell you to switch, it never hurts to ask permission to do so before going to a new frequency.

I spent some time perusing the AIM to hopefully be able to answer your questions with a little more authority, but I couldn't find specific answers to your questions, so I'm just telling you what my experience has been with ATC.
Maybe some of you guys who read more than I do, or maybe are controllers yourselves, could add to this answer, or refute me.

Hope this helps.

 

[GravityHater]

If you have left his airspace you do not have to be on his frequency, you can switch to anything you want at this point; hey, he can't make you stay with him for the next 500 miles!

 

[mattpilot]

I'm sorry, i have to say the instructor is right in this case (he seldom is ).


Radar service terminated means you also squawk VFR. I fail to see how that is not obvious. The squawk's code sole purpose is to give you radar service. If you have no radar service, you have no need for a squawk code and are just using up a code someone else might need. Also, when you squawk 1200 the controller knows he doesn't have to be concerned with you anymore. On the other hand, you can potentially confuse the controller by still squawking the assigned code by making him think he still has to worry about you.


As for frequence change. If you are in Controlled airspace (other than E), you can change no matter what. If you happen to receive radar service at the time you will piss of a controller, but there is no regulation that says you couldn't switch. If a controller terminates your radar service, again, he will no longer worry about you.

The only time it is necessary for the "Frequency change approved" is if you are still in his airspace (B, C, D) - because you are required by the FARs to maintain 2 way radio contact with the controlling authority.

 

[Vector4fun]

Mini,

Here's what the appropriate chapter in the 7110.65 says:

7-6-11. TERMINATION OF SERVICE




​

Basic radar services should be provided to the extent possible, workload permitting. Terminate radar service to aircraft landing at airports other than those where sequencing service is provided at a sufficient distance from the airport to permit the pilot to change to the appropriate frequency for traffic and airport information.​

PHRASEOLOGY-​

RADAR SERVICE TERMINATED, SQUAWK ONE TWO ZERO ZERO,

or

SQUAWK VFR,

then

CHANGE TO ADVISORY FREQUENCY APPROVED,

or

CONTACT (frequency identification),

or

FREQUENCY CHANGE APPROVED.



​

So the .65 offers several different ways to say the same thing. "We're done, See ya..."​

Some personal observations:​

I just saw a breifing item at work yesterday where a controller terminated Radar service to a pilot in a TFR, and probably out of habit, said "Squawk VFR". Oooops. Aircraft operating in a TFR are supposed to remain on a discrete code at all times until on the ground. Also, when operating into a satellite field with a control tower, the pilot is not always going to know whether or not that tower has a radar display of some sort available. Some do, many do not. Some have alphanumerics, (tags), others will only display beacon targets, (slashes). So I would have to say as a basic rule of thumb, don't change transponder codes unless asked to. Even if the controller meant for you to squawk VFR, you're normally not going to irritate anyone unless you stayed on that discrete code for some time. It is kinda distracting to see someone who was likely terminated 200 miles back still squawking a discrete code through your airspace. I always wonder if he's still got the stereo turned up and IAH approach freq muted on #2 or something....​

Regarding frequency change, If a controller simply loses Radar contact, but wants you to remain on frequency, he should use the phrase "Radar contact lost", not "terminated". You'll get that a lot from Center out west in the mountains. Then 50 miles later you'll come in view of another radar site, and ATC will re-identify you, and you'll stay on the same code throughout. Normally, when the controller says "Radar service terminated", that means both radar and communications service.​

Did that help?​

 

[Vector4fun]

Mini,

A further clarification. I was thinking primarily of the situation you described where the approach control terminated radar service as you were headed towards a satellite field. In that case, I probably would always remain on the discrete code unless advised to squawk VFR. On the other hand, if I was not near my destination, (20 mi or so), I'd probably go ahead and squawk VFR, unless told to stay on the discrete code, or told to expect re-identification soon.

There, have I hedged my bets enough?

 

[Lrjtcaptain]

When in doubt, it's always ok to double check with ATC. No harm in asking. It's better than ATC saying to you "Please copy this phone number down"

Yeah, i have somone call about once a week, and for the record I have never submitted paper work on anyone to FSDO. JUst be polite on the phone and it willl all be over soon

 

[FracCapt]

Yeah, i have somone call about once a week

Admit it....you just tell people to call you when you get lonely up there all by yourself...don't you?

BTW...don't you work at that airport in wine country? If so...when are you guys going to take all those dam speed bumps out of the runway(I think it's 18R/36L)?! It's horrible..

 

[Lrjtcaptain]

sorry, don't work at napa, I'm at STS but hopefully get into SFO in the next 12 months. Gotta start somewhere, its nice up here but anyone could work this traffic!

 

[FracCapt]

sorry, don't work at napa, I'm at STS but hopefully get into SFO in the next 12 months. Gotta start somewhere, its nice up here but anyone could work this traffic!

Ah, ok...I thought one of you guys on here worked at Napa...maybe one of the other guys. You really want to go to SFO? Is there a pay difference between the two - or is pay based strictly on longevity? If there's no difference....I, personally, would want to stay at the laid back, slow airport. At least you're close enough that you don't have to move if you don't want to....only about, what, an hour drive to SFO from STS area?

 

[minitour]

Thanks guys for clearing that up.

I wish it was more standardized. For example, today I was on with Forth Worth Center and every single time they kicked someone off it was "Radar Service Terminated, Squawk VFR, Frequency Change Approved" which is how I always heard it until recently. Even the IFR cancellations was "Cancellation received, squawk VFR, frequency change approved".

I guess I'm just a paranoid freak *nerd* that doesn't want to bust any "stupid" regs...or "not stupid" ones for that matter.

That does make sense though that if I'm leaving someone's airspace, there's no need to talk to that person for the next two hours.

Thanks again!

-mini