Conservative mag promotes withdrawal

[merikeyegro]

http://www.amconmag.com/2004_05_10/cover.html

Take a look at this. Pretty good read from a TRUE conservative magazine...

 

[mannyaplus11]

I hate to admit this, 22 years in the active and reserve Air Force,
we need to pull out NOW.
we need to stop buying foreign oil
we need to open up Alaska
We need to open up the Gulf of Mexico
We need to open up the coast off California
We need to use the strategic reserve
The middle east is so cash poor, that if their biggest customer, the U.S. stopped buying for just a few months, you will see just how quickly the become our allies and turn over the "real" terrorists, Bin Laden, et.al.

just my humble opinion.

 

[chawbein]

I'm from Missouri, so Show Me.

Show me why we cannot win in Iraq. Show me specific examples. That article sure didn't. "Unwinnable". "Quagmire". "Another Vietnam". I've heard these terms before in reference to Gulf War I, Afghanistan, Bosnia, and the actual assault on Iraq in Gulf War II (remember the sandstorm?).

EDIT: Here's an interesting article, just food for thought.
linky

 

[Vector4fun]

chawbein,

Or anybody else,

Define "win" in the Iraqi occupation sense.

Perhaps we all have different ideas of what "win" represents?

 

[jarhead]

None are so blind, as those who will not see. Those who will not see, have an agenda, and will not abandon their dogma.

Flat Earth Society, anyone?

 

[chawbein]

No problem.

Win = Iraqi's elect their own temporary government, write their own constitution, and elect their own leaders to permanent government. Said elections takes place under international (read UN) supervision. U.S. maintains bases in Iraq for a presence in the region, similar to the way bases were maintained in Germany and Japan after WWII.

 

[Timebuilder]

I particularly like it when a liberal identifies something as "TRUE," as in "TRUE conservative magazine..."

 

[Jedi_Cheese]

I love it how they have an endorsement from Pat Buchanan. What's next, a KKK endorsement? I am shure you can find some white power websites that call themselves conservative and say we should leave Iraq too...

 

[Vector4fun]

No problem.

Win = Iraqi's elect their own temporary government, write their own constitution, and elect their own leaders to permanent government. Said elections takes place under international (read UN) supervision. U.S. maintains bases in Iraq for a presence in the region, similar to the way bases were maintained in Germany and Japan after WWII.

While I certainly think it possible that "elections" will eventually take place, I think it unwise to plan for any semi-perminant U.S. bases on Iraqi soil.

1. We already have use of facilities in Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, Turkey, and Bahrain.

2. Just as U.S. forces in Saudi Arabia were used as "justification" for Bin Laden's jihad against America, so too will semi-perminant bases in Iraq be used as propaganda to inflame the Arab mind against us. What could be more "imperialistic" than unwelcome foreign military forces based in an Arab country? I'm thinking Iran, mid-late '70s. U.S. puppet Govt. At least we can claim we're welcome in Kuwait and Bahrain......

3. U.S. bases (and soldiers) in Iraq, unless located well away from population centers, simply serve as convenient targets for guerilla forces. The insurgents can easily blend in with the surrounding population. We could locate them in some remote area of the Iraqi desert, well away from the cities, but what does that provide? And how do we support and supply same, or support an Iraqi Govt and population without being near the population centers?

4. If an elected Iraqi Govt decides to ask us to leave, then what? We either obey the wishes of a legitimate Govt. we helped establish, or we completely invalidate our stated (latest) purpose for being there in the first place.

 

[Timebuilder]

Colin Powell addressed the concern of Number 4 in your post today.

If we get them stable, and they decide they are 100% certain they want to go it alone, then, yes. We leave.

 

[Vector4fun]

If we get them stable, and they decide they are 100% certain they want to go it alone, then, yes. We leave.

Timebuilder,

I'm not trying to split hairs here, but I'm not quite sure what the "100%" means. If 2/3rds of the Iraqi Govt wants us out, and only 1/3 of their elected representatives wish us to stay, then is that "100% sure"?

If we leave in 2-3 years, and the resulting Iraqi Govt winds up only slightly less hostile to U.S. interests than Iran for example, is that worth 800 U.S. dead, thousands of U.S. wounded, thousands of Iraqi dead and wounded, and hundreds of billions of dollars of Taxpayer money? I can't say it is.

So we're "gambling" that the Iraqi Govt will be friendly to U.S. interests for some time to come? I just think that's a poorer odds than a $3000 claimer in a stakes race....

 

[jarhead]

chawbein

I'm sorry, but I cannot show you anything you want me to "Prove". I can olny voice my opinions from my life experiences, the way I analyze what I see, read, hear, and argue. If this whole Iraq adventure (or mis-adventure) were a no-brainer, we would not have a populace that is practically split right down the middle on this subject. I will not ask you to "trust me" on this. I could only hope that your might consider my arguement, and should you chose to reject it, no problem. That's your God given right, and it's also what makes America great. WE have the freedom of the press, and the ability to exchange dialog without fear of having our tounges torn out or worse, as would happen in Saddam's regime. We are not Iraq, and we get to state our views; good, bad, insane, or whatever other descriptor you choose.

 

[Pilot124]

I hate to admit this, 22 years in the active and reserve Air Force,
we need to pull out NOW.
we need to stop buying foreign oil
we need to open up Alaska
We need to open up the Gulf of Mexico
We need to open up the coast off California
We need to use the strategic reserve
The middle east is so cash poor, that if their biggest customer, the U.S. stopped buying for just a few months, you will see just how quickly the become our allies and turn over the "real" terrorists, Bin Laden, et.al.

just my humble opinion.

Mannyaplus11, I agree with alot of what you are saying but to pull out of Iraq would make us look like paper dragons. War never is pretty but we need to stay there and take care of business.

 

[jarhead]

Why?

Do you want to be the last man to die in Iraq for a failed policy?

I'll go back to Vietnam. 55,000 Americans dead, and in the end, WE just walked away. "WE" gained nothing. WE supported honoring a treaty with a politically corrupt South Vietnam Government. Gotta honor those treaties you know, even if it makes no sense for America. There is no treaty here. Just the misguided ego and power trip of an intellectual midget.

I remember my own mother commenting about that disastrous war in the 60's, when the big, nefarious questions became "But HOW will we get out?" My mother would answer the question to the TV reporters who posed it. She said, "On boats you stupid A.H., the same way you got them over there". She also stated that the government was too tied up in "saving face" when it should have been concerned with "saving our young men's a$$es."

I do not give a rat's a$$ about "looking like a paper dragon" (or paper tiger). This should not be about "looks", or saving our administrations "face" or "a$$"

This adventure is becoming more and more costly in lives and treasure, and it is destined to end in disaster, and a pull out by the U.S. putting the best spin on it that can. I really believe this Iraq war will cost GWB the election, just as it caused LBJ to decide just not run again. He'd lost the will of the American people, and he knew it.

The Vietnam conflict ended under Richard Nixon, and this disaster will end poorly as well. It's a shame we must spend so much blood and money that could be put to so much better use, than rallying the rest of the world against us.

 

[Singlecoil]

We are going to cut and run. It was said today by Paul Bremer, Colin Powell, and Scott McClellan. Today we are rolling tanks over a holy cemetery in Najaf. Any Iraqi government we install on June 30th will say that the United States should stop these tactics. We will then say that we must be allowed to prosecute the war as our commanders see fit. Then we will say that if the Iraqis don't like our tactics, we will happily pull out of their country. The "sovereign" government will then be forced to state the obvious, that muslims are offended by tactics like these, and yes, they would rather have the Americans leave than carry these policies out. End result, U.S. withdrawal before the election, resulting in an Iraqi civil war between the Kurds, Shiites, and Sunnis. Look for Iran and Turkey to get involved as well.

The Rove machine will not allow this election to be lost because of Iraq. We can expect the talking points of Fox News for the next six months to be how Clinton gutted the military leaving us with not enough divisions to occupy and pacify Iraq. There will be no mention of the fact that Rumsfeld wanted to reduce our current ten divisions to eight.

Link to article.

 

[Timebuilder]

I'm not trying to split hairs here, but I'm not quite sure what the "100%" means. If 2/3rds of the Iraqi Govt wants us out, and only 1/3 of their elected representatives wish us to stay, then is that "100% sure"?

The certainty is determined by them, not us.

And no, Singlecoil. We are not going to "cut and run." We are going to respond to the free government which we helped to create. What a difference between those two ideas.

 

[Blue Dude]

I do not give a rat's a$$ about "looking like a paper dragon" (or paper tiger). This should not be about "looks", or saving our administrations "face" or "a$$"

Know something interesting? I agree with you 100% here, but I came to the complete opposite conclusion. We HAVE to see it through, but not because it will save face. I couldn't care less about making the U.S. or Bush or anyone else look good, just for its own sake, or out of pride. But I am extremely concerned by how leaving Iraq at this time would be interpreted by terrorist groups around the world. I believe it would be open season on Americans, abroad and right here at home. We take the pressure off, and not only do the terrorists gain great "face" (or the Muslim equivalent), which will aid recruitment and give them breathing room for their operations, we will have proven ourselves faithless, and the Arab world will never have reason again to accept our word for anything. They understand power, and we will have shown that we will blink, even if it means committing the international equivalent of treachery, when confronted with terrorist methods. This is a one-shot deal. We blow it, and don't see it through, we'll never have the opportunity again. We will be stuck fighting a defensive war for the rest of our lives.

This isn't a war for oil. If it was, we'd just take control of the oil fields, leave a garrison, go home, and let the rest of Iraq rot. It also isn't a Bush ego trip. If it was, he has had numerous opportunities to "declare victory", take the poll bounce, and leave before having to deal with the really hard stuff. No, this war is another front in the war on terrorism. And in that war, face does matter. There is obviously a cultural disconnect between how we interpret actions and how they do, and we have to get better at sending messages that they will understand. I am afraid that leaving will send a huge message, but not one that is favorable for us. I don't want my kid's generation to do this over because we were too gutless to do what's right.

And don't ever forget, Jarhead: we didn't start this war. But for our sakes, we'd better finish it.

 

[jarhead]

Blue Dude,

Starting with your closing statement, I will remind you that Mr. Bush DID in fact, start this war. It was loudly shouted and portrayed to be one of “Shock and Awe”. The bombs and cruise missiles started flying after time expired when Bush gave Saddam and his sons 48 hours to get out of Dodge. Safe passage was guaranteed, if he would leave the country. He didn’t, so we launched Shock and Awe.

As to your assertion that if we left Iraq that it would be a signal for all would be terrorists to join up, I must state that they are joining up NOW, precisely because we have not left. The thousands of detainees now being released from Abu Ghriab who were wrongly held and abused, will now be the recruiters for terrorists, to rid THEIR country of “The Great Satan”. That Muslim mantra has been reinforced by the occupiers of their land. We will never win the hearts and minds of the people in this Islamic country.

The huge majority of our military forces are now tied up in a war of insurgency with citizens of a country we invaded, and are seen by them as occupiers of their land. This force tied up in this mess in Iraq is not fighting terror; it is fighting insurgents in a country we are occupying. We do not have the forces to do the job properly in Afghanistan, where terror was indeed carried out from.

You say that you do not want your son to have to fight and die in a defensive war with terror. Neither do I, but it is because of what has taken place in Iraq that will lead to your self fulfilling prophecy, The longer the US is in Iraq, the more the hatred builds.

Yes, Mr. Bush did start this war. To rid a really bad man of atomic, biological, and chemical weapons. When he found they did not exist, he decided the Iraqi people needed to be “liberated”, and that we would spend our money and lives to do that. The problem Mr. Bush did not foresee is that the people he wanted to liberate seem to hate us as much as they hated Saddam.

 

[Blue Dude]

And the consequences of leaving will be what exactly? It will be interpreted in which way?

We can argue who started what and when, but it doesn't change the fact that we're there NOW, and leaving would present enormous problems for us down the road.

 

[jetexas]

If the Iraqi's want another dictatorship then so be it. It's theirs to decide. If they want democracy, then so be it. There is nothing that the US can do to "force" the Iraqi's to have a certain type of government. We can only guide them. Unfortunately with all the bad press and anti-us propoganda going on, that's seemingly impossible now.
History shows that the arabs understand only dictatorial regimes. Democracy is as alien to them as communism was to us in the cold war. They need someone to force their hand much as their religion and society is entirely dependent on "gods will".
I am afraid that 'when' we pull out the place is gonna explode. Power grabs, civil war then a settling down once a dictator rises. This Al-Sadr guy is leading the pack so far on that. There will be more to challenge him.
While it would be nice to see peace in the middle east with a democratic, pro western government I think it's gonna be extremely hard for the minority freedom loving Iraqis to hold that line.
We should just cross our fingers that no one as brutal and unstable as Saddam fills the void. We should also stay out of the middle of it. No sense in getting a bunch of our guys killed for a cause in which the Iraqis probably won't ultimately support.