Consequences of saying "no"?

[Timebuilder]

The place has expanded and already lost certificates for two more instructors due to the same problems. The school is always squeaky clean, the instructors make the mistakes and judgment errors.

Just how exactly does this happen?

 

[350DRIVER]

Very good thread... Some very good advice, suggestions, ideas, and most of all it has opened a few eyes when it comes to the most important issue of all concerning pilots, = "safety"... It is just unfortunate in many ways that management could/does fire pilots on a regular basis for refusing trips due to safety concerns by the pilot... I am still firm believer that absolutely no job is worth flying willingly and knowingly into "unsafe" conditions and being "forced" to do so by management without any other option. I really do feel for the good guys out there that are having to fly in conditions that they are not overly "happy" or thrilled about... - Hopefully you know "how" to get away with it as safely as possible and minimize your risks and vulnerability.

I think the FAA does a pretty good job (for the most part) when it comes to overlooking operators and keeping a close watchful eye them. It is not unusual for one or two inspectors to be seen walking around our facility on a weekly basis. I enjoy knowing that if we were (which will never happen) to cut corners, operate "unsafe" that the FAA would know about it rather quickly.



cheers

3 5 0

 

[mar]

Thankyew.

Flx757--Thanks very much. It's a great complement from someone with your experience. Cool avatar, by the way.

Timebuilder--Thank you too. Your acknowledgement means a lot coming from one whom I've butted heads with before.

And Mr. 350driver, I sort of sense a change of heart after you've read all these horror stories.

This business can be mean and nasty--I'll spare you my personal horror stories but rest assured they involved threats and slander.

As for the FAA: well. I'm glad you feel they're providing adequate oversight at your operation. You must truly work for a first class outfit.

Personally I think the FAA has dropped the oversight ball and Alaska 261 was probably the very most dramatic realization of that fact.

I could cite other examples but to what end?

A true Culture of Safety comes from the top down. It only exists when the leaders of the organization wish it so. If it's a bunch of jive-talk, then forget it. Then it's up to the individual pilots to insist on a certain level of safety.

Generally things, from my perspective, are changing for the better.

The old joke about CRM standing for Can't Retrain Me is now pretty much just that--a joke.

Safe flying.

 

[JediNein]

Just how exactly does this happen?

I wish I knew.

I do not see how a new instructor can be deemed in violation for making a safe off-airport emergency landing because a cylinder departed the airplane. That is a maintenance issue and an operator issue for not repairing the initial problem (sudden, unexplained, massive oil consumption that a 6 hour student pilot noticed). It is an operator issue for not examining the airplane after an on-airport emergency landing with a sudden rise in CHTs and loss of oil pressure. It is also an operator problem for forcing the instructors to continue flying the airplane under threat of being fired and blacklisted at the local 135 operators. This new instructor was unaware of the airplane's history.

Sleazeballs do exist in the industry: "all my other pilots do it." Yep, right up until a pilot gets killed. Then the response is "s/he was a very marginal pilot to begin with" or "I warned them not to take the airplane/flight/cargo/amount of weight."

Don't count on the FAA to find problems. One flight school based next door to a FSDO did not close their doors until the local DPEs completely refused to fly in the school's airplanes. That was the only time I remember seeing two wires just hanging out of the back of a Cessna 152, right where the rudder controls should have been connected. The plane flew just fine for two years without rudder control until the school closed and the plane was scrapped (massive corrosion).

The rule of thumb: Look out for #1. (you!)

Fly SAFE!
Jedi Nein

 

[chperplt]

Don't count on the FAA to find problems

That sad part about it... The FAA doesn't give a rats behind about problems. You can hand them a laundry list of issues and they don't want to be bothered.

Until you make a scene and scare the hell out of or kill people, they don't care.

 

[skydiverdriver]

This is a very good question. Pilot pushing is a big problem, and I was speaking with a Delta crew about this very thing just yesterday. The Delta captain said he would do what he felt was right, and stand by his convictions. Of course, you don't want to have to wait until you are a senior airline captain before you can do this.

I previously flew skydivers for operations that were less than perfect, and it was difficult at times. I spoke to an AME once that told me, if they ask you to do something that you know is wrong, just walk away. I know that is difficult to do when you are new and need the time, but later on you will be glad you did.

Now, I've worked for two very good operators that will let the captain decide what is right. They will try to persuade you, but the crew makes the final decision, and it usually stops there. I have seen things happen that I didn't agree with, and it usually was a result of the person not standing up for what they believed. So, my suggestion? Always do the right and legal thing, to the best of your knowledge, and let the chips fall where they may. If someone fires you from a low-level flying job for that, you didn't want it anyway. Who knows, another employer may find out about your integrety, and hire you just because you stood up for what you thought was right. I know, this is hard to do, but it's essential to your life and your career.

Hope this helps, and thanks for the good question.

 

[turning2]

Hey Mar,

Ditto that on a great posting.

However, the way it was presented to me by one capt was... I'm the Crew the Resource and the Management.

2

 

[Singlecoil]

That was the only time I remember seeing two wires just hanging out of the back of a Cessna 152, right where the rudder controls should have been connected.

That must have been one of those new "fly by wire" 152's...

 

[skydiverdriver]

PS,
If everyone refused to fly for the substandard operators, they would have a lot of difficulty staying in business. Just a thought.

 

[scubabri]

which is where the problem lies, I suppose we can group poor operators and PFT's into the same group.

As a low time pilot, in general, those seem to be the only places where I can get a job.. I think this has been going on for a long time, and will continue to go on for a long time.

It just apears to me that the FAA just doesn't care, doesn't have the resources, picks on the easy targets first or whatever.

The way I look at it, if I boycotted poor operators or PFT's, I honestly don't see how I would ever make it as a pilot, and I might as well give up now and go do something else. I honestly don't know what my other options are. I really wish I had of known this 3 years ago when I started on this path.. but that's my problem to deal with

keep the thread going, it's been very helpful for me to weed through the garbage.

Brian

 

[skydiverdriver]

I finally read Mar's post, and agree it was very good. One thing though, don't we need to wear O2 when someone leaves the flight deck above FL250?

Another thing to consider, I have a friend who worked for a shoddy outfit, and later wanted to leave. He was told that if he left, the employer would give him a bad reference to anyone who called. This caused him to miss out on some good opportunities, and had to fly checks in Lears for five years before he could get a job at an airline. So, check people out before you go to work for them. Remember that when someone interviews you, part of the game is for you to decide if you want to work there. Good luck.

 

[KlingonLRDRVR]

Great posts Mar and Dogg. Words of true wisdom.

Scubabri, I don't mean to tarnish one whole segment of our industry but you may be more comfortable at a passenger outfit than with the Frieght Dogs. Not saying it is right or wrong, but they do call it "the dark side" for a reason....

Best of Luck

KlingonLRDRVR

 

[avbug]

Back to the job interview: These guys are just begging to be lied to. (Why do you want to work for us?; Why should we hire you?; What's your biggest weakness?; Tell me about a time when you made a mistake in an airplane?) What a crock! No serious job applicant is ever going to give an honest answer to any of those questions and the whole time they're telling you, Just relax; be yourself; we just want to get to know you. Then why are you asking me if I've ever broken an FAR?

I've been posting here for a few years, and just figured out how the quote thing works. Cool.

Mar's quote (above) answers a question that's been nagging at me for much of my career. Why didn't I get hired? I've been giving honest answers. I knew it was a mistake, but kept making it anyway.

I screwed that one up a long time ago. I went in for an interview at a freight operation. I was young, early on in the career. The interviewer, the chief pilot, asked me about my career aspirations at the time. Where did I want to be in five years? I answered honestly that I wanted to be flying heavy air tankers. Then he asked what the hell I was doing interviewing for the position with him, and sent me down the road.

I left thinking that perhaps honesty wasn't the best policy, but also relieved that I wouldn't be tied down with meaningful employment. Instead, I was still free to pursue that thankless no-benifits trashy lifestyle I had always dreamed about, without being stuck in a position that might have actually gone somewhere. My second and only other mistake, was failing to write that gentleman a thank-you letter for contributing in a positive way to my career.

When asked, "Have you ever broken a regulation," I try not to say, "Well, hell yes I have. Haven't you?" But it always slips out anyway.

"Biggest weakness? Dunno, chief. There are so many. Would you like me to concentrate on a specific one? I mean, the gambling isn't a weakness, it's more of a strength, if you're good at it, right? Masturbation is only a weakness if you're caught in public, and let's face it, shoplifting something that was a bad product is only in the public interest."

"Why should you hire me? Lordy, I don't know. I'm not the one doing the hiring. I oughtta say it's cause I'm so good looking, but you'd probably see right through that one, huh?" (Unamused look, subtle nodding, quizical stares between otherwise-stone-faced line guys and check airmen). "Well, look at it this way. I'm real friendly, I bathe twice a week, and you won't never catch me drunk on the job...again. I ain't dinged up no airplanes, and most folks like me well enough. You want more?" (subtle head-shakes all around).

"Tell you about mistakes I made, huh? Okay, but you ain't gonna hold it against me, right? I mean, sure, I shut off the fuel to both engines once, but I got it started again, and that's gotta count for something. And then there was the time when I had the bosses daughter on board and it was a long flight, and...did I ever tell you my autopilot story? Well,..."

Maybe Mar's on to something. I'll let you know. I heard yesterday that I may be standing in the unemployment line tomorrow.

 

[mar]

Payin' yer dues...

Scubabri--Don't get discouraged. It's called paying your dues. Some people get lucky and get a buddy pass through life--the rest of us just have to suck it up. I wish I could offer you better advice but the truth is this: You're only gonna put up with what you're comfortable with. Everyone is an individual. Just because I can sit there fat dumb and happy, munching on my oreos, while we're 3000# over gross doesn't mean you need to be comfortable.

If you quit this job, so what? You'll get another. As someone said, your integrity may help you at another operator--or it may hurt you. You never know. Take one day at a time. One flight at a time.

This is all Zen.

Whatever. You'll do the right thing and I wish you luck.

Avbug--I've just been rejected from two job interviews and I happen to think the entire recruitment and selection process at the airlines is a complete sham--but maybe that's just sour grapes, eh? But I felt the same way before I got interviewed. Good luck with your job situation.

Skydiverdriver--Maybe I oversimplified the Supplemental O2 rule:

91.211 Supplemental Oxygen
(b) Pressurized Cabin Aircraft
(1) No person may operate a civil aircraft of US registry with a pressurized cabin--
(i) At flight altitudes aboce flight level 250 unless a 10-minute supply of supplemental oxygen, in addition to any oxygen required to satisfy paragraph (a) of this section, is available for each occupant of the aircraft for use in the event that a descent is necessitated by loss of cabin pressurization; and
(ii) At flight altitudes above flight level 350 unless one pilot at the controls of the airplane is wearing and using an oxygen mask that is secured and sealed and that either supplies oxygen whenever the cabin pressure altitude of the airplane exceeds 14000 feet MSL, except that the one pilot need not wear and use an oxygen mask while at or below flight level 410 if there are two pilots at the controls and each pilot has a quick donning type of oxygen mask that can be placed on the face with one hand from the ready position within 5 seconds, supplying oxygen and properly secured and sealed.
(2) Notwithstanding paragraph (b)(1)(ii) of this section, if for any reason at any time it is necessary for one pilot to leave the controls of the aircraft when operating at flight altitudes above flight level 350, the remaining pilot at the controls shall put on and use an oxygen mask until the other pilot has returned to that crewmember's station.

Now you tell me, cause I'm dead tired after a 13 hour duty day....what in the world does that say?

G'night.

 

[bobbysamd]

Airline interview "process"

I've just been rejected from two job interviews and I happen to think the entire recruitment and selection process at the airlines is a complete sham--but maybe that's just sour grapes, eh? But I felt the same way before I got interviewed.

Thou speaketh the truth on this subject. I know, too. Search my other posts on the subject.

Part of my 1990 Mesa Airlines interview was with Grady Reed, who was the VP of something or another. He asked if I had any questions. I asked if Mesa planned to acquire RJs. At that time RJs were coming off the drawing boards and were being featured in various pilot magazines. I felt it was a reasonable question. He said "no." He was clearly put off by my question. And a few days later I received a rejection letter from Mike Whitman. I learned much later that Mr. Reed was Mr. Beech 1900 at Mesa. As I always say, as Paul Harvey says, we know the rest of the story about Mesa and RJs.

Perhaps other factors factored in my rejection, but there is absolutely, positively no question in my mind that my question blackballed me. I learned a lesson. I learned to ask only benign questions. I received advice from an experienced hand in the business not to ask questions at all if given the opportunity. You know the old rope thing; give a man/woman a rope and he/she will hang himself/herself with it. There is discussion on the question issue elsewhere on the board. It's worth reading.

Thanks, also, for your excellent comments on pilot integrity.

Avbug, too, speaketh the truth on aviation "hiring."

 

[wil]

I fly by one simple rule- if I have to sit across from the FAA or CP can I justify my decision/action? Fly safe-

 

[skydiverdriver]

Hey Avbug,
Don't concentrate on regrets, as they are a waste of time. I had the chief pilot of my first cargo job ask me the same question, where do you want to be in five years? I answered similar to you, flying large jets. He, of course, didn't have any of those. He just smiled, and said, "That's okay." I got the job that very day, and it was the best help my career has ever had.

Perhaps your interviewer had another reason not to hire you, and just used your answer as an excuse. Just because he said that was the reason, doesn't mean it actually was. Just a thought.

 

[avbug]

Regrets?

If you read carefully, you'll find that I said I was grateful. I was. Still am.

I don't regret.

(gret was bad enough the first time around).

 

[TurboS7]

This past November I was flying Alabama State to HNL. At OAK I got an oil bypass light flashing on taxi in. It was a DMI able item but we had to verify that all the filters were clean, and we had do a bite test and verifly that the filter was in fact not by-passing. When it was all said and done the filter was not by-passing and the filters were all clean. The problem came in that we didn't have any new o-rings for the filters, because it was Thxgiving Day we couldn't get the o-rings anywhere. We wound up flying another aircraft in from NAS 6.0 hours away and we continued on the HNL. The 11 hour delay resulted in Bama missing practice etc, etc, which was all over national TV. Sometimes you just have to do what you have to do and stand up to the consequences. I havn't been to HNL since, but that is just the way the ball bounces. Tough choices and you never really know the outcome of those choices for a long time thereafter. The bottom line is you are going to be "Monday morning quarterbacked "no matter what you do, so you just have live with the results of your decision and that is that.

 

[mar]

Real Life: I should've said "No" today

No details.

Today I should've said, "No."

Today, the bags and dark circles under my eyes are deeper.

Fly safe. Just be safe.