Consequences of saying "no"?

[scubabri]

I worked very hard to get my licenses and spend several thousand dollars to get what little time I have.

I am looking for a very honest answer on this, and if you don't feel comfortable saying so in public, feel free to PM me.

I've heard several stories of F/O's or Captains being pressured into doing something illegal or worse dangerous to meet schedules, to save money etc etc.

As a newly minted commercial pilot, I personally have experienced pressure to break rules. I am wet behind the ears, and I've heard things like "What? Do you think that the FAA cops are gonna come flying outta the clouds and bust you" or "the FAA never checks that" or "everybody does it, and the FAA hasn't busted them" to things like "all my other pilots do it"

I am sure that this question will come up in an interview, and I know how things work in the real world since I've been in the corporate world for several years.

It seems to me that as a low time pilot, the last thing you want to do is to leave it up to me as to whether or not to break a rules. It seems to me that if you don't like the rules, then either stop flying, or get the rules changed. Of course this doesn't change the reality of things.

How do I handle this situation, and keep my job? How wide spread is this problem? How high up the corporate food chain does this go? How do I handle the question in an interview?
Am I tainted because I've broken the rules, and I didn't die?
Is it to much to ask for a company that follows all the rules all the time? Can I get hired there? How do I handle this situation in the heat of the moment as a a green no nothing F/O?



Brian

 

[350DRIVER]

In a sense you have taken an oath to uphold and obey the rules within the FAR's when you were mailed that certificate from the FAA... I have no respect for any pilot who knowingly breaks rules on a regular basis. Kind of a foolish question since you have worked this hard to get to where you are, why even contemplate this.??

If your company does "pressure" you into breaking rules, flying sub par equipment, etc, etc, I would laugh at them (rather hard)and tell them take a long hike and fly a kite along that long hike and let your local FSDO know what is going on. Common sense goes a long way in this business.

I don't fault the company completely since it is the pilot in most cases that lacks the common sense to "walk" and allows pressure to get to them and they give in, complete stupidity....

I've heard several stories of F/O's or Captains being pressured into doing something illegal or worse dangerous to meet schedules, to save money etc etc.

This is not the norm within the industry, complete stupidity for the most part....

Do you think that the FAA cops are gonna come flying outta the clouds and bust you" or "the FAA never checks that" or "everybody does it, and the FAA hasn't busted them" to things like "all my other pilots do it"

I would think my LIFE being jepordized by taking foolish chances would be much more important than worrying about "FAA cops" and possible enforcement action for violating some far...

It seems to me that if you don't like the rules, then either stop flying, or get the rules changed. Of course this doesn't change the reality of things.

OR.... Go to another operator who "safely" flies by the rules- once again just common sense, nothing more and nothing less.

Is it to much to ask for a company that follows all the rules all the time? Can I get hired there? How do I handle this situation in the heat of the moment as a a green no nothing F/O?

There is little YOU can do to "change" a company and make them "safer"... I would talk to the chief pilot and or director of ops and see if they really know what is going on, step one.. If they are busting regulations and causing the safety of the flight to be compromised and they are "aware" of it then common sense would illustrate to notify your POI and FSDO.

Use common sense, YOU only have "one" life so use it "wisely".

3 5 0

 

[bobbysamd]

Pilot pushing

Here's a reading assignment: Read the chapters about pilot pushing in Flying the Line.

I worked very hard to get my licenses and spend several thousand dollars to get what little time I have.

Reread this statement you wrote and the answer to your query should be apparent. When it comes right down to it, if you are pushed and consequences ensue it will be you and your (expensive) aviation attorney who will be fighting the battle. Don't expect your company to come to your aid.

I like how your company is telling you that all its other pilots "are doing it." If someone told you to jump in the lake and that everyone is doing it, would you?

Just a little food for thought, bearing in mind that your hard-won tickets and a clean record are your livelihood.

One other point: One of the five hazardous thought patterns taught in Aeronautical Decision Making is anti-authority. I.e., "Don't tell me what to do." The antidote: "Follow the Rules; they are usually right." Both points apply in your case.

 

[mar]

Just to whet your appetite

Scubabri--I think you have very valid concerns. I also happen to disagree with 350driver who thinks your question is "kinda silly."

If 350driver is lucky enough to work for someone that puts no pressure on him then yippee for him.

I happen to have spent the last eight years in Alaska flying broken down airplanes to all sorts of strips in all sorts of conditions while working for all sorts of people.

I understand the spirit of your question but I can't really do it justice right now.

Let me think about it tonight and let's see what I come up with tomorrow.

'Til then, fly safe.

 

[scubabri]

yah know, especially in these days when there are so many pilots unemployed, one thing I forgot to add was "there will be 500 other pilots that will take your job and do the thing".

I'm a low time pilot, and in order to not be a low time pilot, I need to be able to fly, and I need to be employed to do that. So, if I am constantly unemployed because I told the boss or whoever to piss off, I basically put myself into the position of never being able to build time, unless I go to work for a company that follows the rules, which from what I have seen, people who hire us low time pilots have a tendancy to break more rules than the jobs that require higher time pilots

And of course, it will be hard to get a letter of recommendation from the boss that you told to piss off (diplomatically of course) which means, other than the hours, you pretty much start from scratch.. I can just see the HR questions, "Why did you leave this job?" "well, I left because they made me do X", "Well, why did you leave that job", "well, I left because they made me fly Y"

I'm sure HR would look at you and you would be labeled at that point either a troublemaker, not a team player or a job jumper. Which would limit your career options.

Of course legal battles with the aviation lawyers would take years. And with my years in corporations, Labor issues are notoriously nasty and the employee generally loses, unless they document everything, of course then... if the company gets wind that the person is keeping records... you get the idea

Sorry, I'm not jaded, I'm just trying to figure out how to handle these things. I'm 36 years old and it's gonna be tough enough for me to break into a good flying job without all of the bs. I'm just looking for a plan of attack. Time is running out for me, and I need to make the best decisions.


Thanks for all your help.

Brian

 

[avbug]

You're absolutely right that there are other pilots looking to take your job, but it's not 500, it's more like 20,000. Folks who came up through the ranks in the past few years are just now beginning to appreciate that this is what the industry has been like for some of us for much of our careers. We're back to being a dime a dozen again, and many who thought they'd finally grabbed that golden ring have only recently found out that it was really gold leaf, covering dust.

Pressure to fly, or pressure to overlook, is common. It's often not spoken, though sometimes it is. I've had employers tell me I was lucky to be getting paid, that I should be paying them for the experience, and to hit the road if I didn't like it. I had an employer slam me up against a hangar wall and tell me he would stick a shotgun in my mouth and blow the back of my head off if I didn't go along. I've heard all the drivle about it being minor, that the FAA doesn't check, and so on. I've seen maintenance that would scare you right out of the industry, especially if you knew where I've seen it, and how common it really is.

I was once told to inspect an airplane coming out of a phase check so that it could be put on the line and test flown. It was a large four engine airplane that had been through about a month and a half of heavy maintenance. I found some 13 major grounding items before the first engine was closed up, and was called before the lead inspector. He advised me that my job was to sign it off, not to see discrepancies, and that I was being assigned specifically NOT to see the discrepancies. He then invited another supervisor in, sat me down, and informed me that I had better not speak with the FAA. I was told that I could be made to look very bad, and that the company would be made to look very clean, and that they would see to it that my career was destroyed. I tucked the paperwork into his shirt and said "see ya!"

I had one employer who, when confronted with regulations and legal interpretations showing that he wasn't providing adequate training, stated that the regulations were wrong, and I was viewing them incorrectly. He then tried to tell me that "when I was in the army I wrote the regulations..." and lost any credibility he might have had. Pressure to conform...don't like it, tough. So they say.

In discussing this at various times with different levels within the FAA, I've often received the same reply. It's always the same thing: don't like it? You have the option to quit. What will we do to your employer? Probably nothing, but if we catch you, you're toast.

That's oversimplified, but that's also how it can work out in practice. The FAA is loathe to act without a mountain of evidence. If it's one or two minor infractions, they likely won't go after the employer, but they will go after you. The employer will have to wait until evidence mounts (or can't be ignored, ala valuejet), but the pilot only needs a small hit to severely wound a career. The company can take fines and hits without any problem, but you cannot.

The answer for you? The answer is that you need to decide what you're going to do, for yourself. The simple answer is that unless it's always 100% legal, and 100% safe, don't do it. In reality, that's a ridiculous statement to make, if you intend to stay employed.

I would suggest you consider your limitations carefully, and then consider where your paycheck is coming from. Remember that the FAA's mission is to bring enforcement action against you, and that the FAA doesn't pay your way. Your boss does. With that in mind, never go anything you're not comfortable with. I've refused airplanes, refused flights, and even diverted or stopped enroute due to weather or mechanical issues. Safety first, legality a very close second.

If you have the luxury of working for a firm that is unionized, you have a great deal more protection than much of the industry shares. For many of the jobs you'll be undertaking, it will be at-will employment, with little protection, and the potential for a lot of pressure to come to bear.

You'll become aware quickly that you need to decide what level of squawk you can live with. If you have a MEL, that's all good and well, but the unspoken covenant in the industry is that something always breaks on the last flight of the day on short final...and doesn't get written up until then. Don't ground equipment unnecessarily, but don't fly unsafe equipment. We're not paid to fly airplanes. We're paid for judgement, which seldom involves a clearcut or black and white choice.

Your judgement will increase with experience. One of the best things you can do at any stage in your career is recognize that your experience is probably far less reaching than any of us might think, and to always judge conservatively.

The bottom line is that there is always another job...I've quit employers before over maintenance or legality issues rather than compromise myself or my career. It's not always an easy choice, and it's resulted in some very lean living and some tough times, but in those cases it was the only professional thing to do. I've worked for some really great employers, too...working for some of the bad ones can really make you appreciate the average or good ones.

Good luck in reconciling with your conscience. Your question isn't stupid at all: it's something every pilot must face...often over and over again in his or her career. Welcome to the club.

 

[350DRIVER]

I basically put myself into the position of never being able to build time, unless I go to work for a company that follows the rules, which from what I have seen, people who hire us low time pilots have a tendancy to break more rules than the jobs that require higher time pilots

I disagree with the above statement. It appears that you not only have the dedication, desire, will to succeed, but you also seem to have a smart head on your shoulders. Contrary to popular belief shotty mx, companies that knowingly break rules, compromise safety on a regular basis, etc, etc, etc, are really not the norm in this business. I see absolutely no difference between companies that hire low timers versus high timers when it comes to abiding by the "rules". Rules are applicable to pilots ALL across the board as well as ALL companies who are in this business. I have known many pilots who have quit jobs due to "pressure". Can I blame them.?? They are still alive and after hearing stories about what they were being forced to do I cannot even begin to fault them. Remember one thing if anything that aviation can/will be a very unforgiving profession under certain circumstances. I would much rather pass up a job in which the operator "pressures" me into bad situations and attempts to compromise "safety" than accept and be worried about being able to fly shotty equipment and stay alive.

If 350driver is lucky enough to work for someone that puts no pressure on him then yippee for him

mar- I don't think "luck" has anything to do with it. I just happen to work for a company who values and respects human life and doesn't think "compromising safety" is needed to make money nor do they knowingly break FAR's just to save a couple bucks. "pressure" is a word that can be used in different ways, I think most pilots have felt this just not always in a "negative" way as most have associated the word here in this thread. I know many director of ops, chief pilots, line pilots, etc, who are in different 135 departments around the country and I can say most run an extremely tight ship. If a company wants to break rules, compromise safety then it is a matter of time before their POI and local FSDO catch wind of this. Just remember everytime you are "forced" to break rules just how HARD you have worked for your certificates, ratings, and how much money you have invested in your career.

avbug has made some great points as always. I agree with him about "safety" and "limitations". Obviously no one can ever be "perfect" with reagards to rules, just try not to compromise safety since some people in the back are counting on you...


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[CaptBuzzard]

I was pressured in to flying when the weather was below min at my intended destination, and alt. The were no reasonable alternates around. When I say reasonble, not somewhere that was two states away. I had duty-time to think about too. In fact there was not a single vfr airport near there either. About the only airport I could use as a legal alternate was my departure airport. Now here is the deal, yes it would be a legal alternate for some aircraft, but not the one I was flying. It didn't have the fuel load to get back there with 45 min reserve. Also, I didn't feel comfortable just cruising back on fumes. Most of the trip was above a low layer of fog. If I run out of fuel, and have to ditch the plane, I am not seeing the ground until I am eating it. I want to live and if the flight is going to put my life in danger, then they can find another pilot to fly. I found out later that they wanted to fire me for that. You know what. At least I wouldn't have had a letter on file with the FAA if for some reason I was ramp checked when I got back to my departure airport. I wasn't going until I had a LEGAL alternate. I have disputed this with other co-workers as well, but I am the PIC (captain as you put it). I made the call, and to this day I'm still am happy with my decision. Do not ever let an employer try to pressure you in to doing something that first is illegal and second, something you may not feel safe doing. Now the second piece of advice, you need to pick your battles on. If it is something that is not serious like a little icing, then you should probably still fly. Now if there is a Sigmet for severe icing, then you know that it is more than likely widespread and depending on the aircraft you are flying don't go. You make the call, and remember most companies would understand if you were fired for not wanting to do something illegal. I personally would rather explain why I was fired because of something like that, than to explain why I had a violation with the FAA. Most of all, you'll be alive to explain it.

 

[dogg]

350 driver--
you didn't read Mar's post. At your stage in the game you are lucky to work for a company that can afford to have a safety first attitude and I would say that as far as you are concerned with your experience, luck has everything to do with it. When your luck runs out, and it most likeley will, you will end up at some scum bag outfit and then you will understand what Mar and most of the rest of us have been through. Flying broken airplanes, in marginal weather with to much crap in the back.

SCUBABRI- know the rules, know how they apply, be smart, don't hop on a high horse when it comes to resolving issues, look at all sides of the situation, accept the fact that you don't know everything and in the end if it is going to kill you , don't do it. Approach each situation with an open mind and determine first is it safe and then is it legal.... live long and prosper

 

[OtterFO]

I was sent home one day when I refused to get onto a company navajo (as a passenger on company business) because I knew the airplane was significantly overgross. For me, being checked out and current in the airplane I feel strongly that any overgross in the jo is to much. Expecially because this airplane had the VG kit and overweight landing gear. So the book gross weight was already increased 368 pounds from a stock jo. The CP and DO both took the view that since I was a passenger not the PIC, I was overstepping my bounds.

I resigned the position three days later. I am very fourtanate, I had a job offer from another navajo operator. This operator runs with the VG kits, but artifically lowers the book gross weight by 118 pounds.

To have this rambling come to an end. I had repeatedly been pressured by my previous employer to operate outside the regs, both overtly and covertly. Previously I had always caved, and subsequently found it more and more dificult to sleep with myself.

Times are tough right now, I've been lucky in this indstury. But, I still havent ruled out becomming a truck driver. Atleast I could pull over and walk...

 

[up frnt]

Just remember that you are dead for a long time. Nothing is so important that you jeopardize your life and livelihood. FAA will say it was pilot error. As a PIC you are responsible for everything that goes on with the aircraft.

 

[350DRIVER]

dogg posted-

At your stage in the game you are lucky to work for a company that can afford to have a safety first attitude and I would say that as far as you are concerned with your experience, luck has everything to do with it

"Luck" has absolutely nothing to do with it, go back and read my replies. I will reiterate the same points one more time for you in a condensed manner. A company who respects, values human life, doesn't cut corners to save money, doesn't take mx short cuts, does NOT rely on "luck". I do not think your experiences are the "norm" within the industry and I would be highly amazed if "luck" as you put it is being used by operators to compromise "safety".

When your luck runs out, and it most likeley will, you will end up at some scum bag outfit and then you will understand what Mar and most of the rest of us have been through.

Well since I do not rely on "luck" I have a hard time believing that it will run out anytime soon... Be careful on how you are using the term "rest of us" since most people on this board are safe pilots that abide by the rules that have been put into place for a reason. A "pay check" is not as important as my life and "living" to fly another day not to mention the many innocent lives of people who are under the wings down below.

c h e e r s

3 5 0

 

[Wang Chung]

I quit a flying job once because of safety issues - it reached the point where I had this deep-down gut feeling that I shouldn't fly there anymore, so I went with that feeling and left. It was the right thing to do and I never regretted it, despite the fact that I missed out on some (at the time) valuable flight time.

There have been other issues at other places where I've worked where I've been somewhat vocal (so have some of my colleagues)and stood my ground. I quickly went from the from the company "A" list to the company sh1t list and I've heard all the threats, etc., but I don't regret it one ounce. BTW, I laughed when I read Avbug's post becuz it all sounds so familiar.

Everybody has their own threshold for tolerating this stuff, but you're NEVER wrong by doing things by the book. I've found that I'm more uptight about regs and safety than lots of guys that I have flown with. But accidents often happen because of an unforseeable chain of events or conditions that contribute to a catastrophe. When somebody tells you "don't sweat the small stuff" remember that 5 minor things have combined to killed people just as effectively as one major one. Something to think about when the boss says "we don't have the time or the $$ to worry about the small stuff - now go fly!" Read a human-factors book called "Normal Accidents" by Charles Perrow - very interesting.

If you are an F/O, I think it complicates the issue a bit because you may be paired with a "Company Man" captain who likes to break the rules to get things done. You could just refuse to fly, but more often it becomes a social CRM-type teamwork task to address the safety issue or whatever.

Wang

 

[dogg]

350,
You are missing the point. You are "lucky" to work for an outfit that makes it their policy to follow the rules. If you were not "lucky", you might have ended up working for an outfit that does not make it their policy to follow the rules and, as you say, you would quit and then you would hope to be" lucky" enough to find another job where they follow the rules. I am not implying that your following the rules has anything to do with "luck", simply that you were fortunate enough to start your career with a company that plays by the rules. Many of us were not that fortunate and have had to put up with plenty of grief as we attempted to follow the rules. I truly hope that your "luck" holds out and your company stays in business and that you don't have to make the difficult choices that many of us have had to make. And by the way it is possible to work for dirt bags and still follow the rules but not if you hop on a box and pound on your chest and rant about precious human lives etc, etc, blah, blah, blah..............so unless you have worked for a dirt bag, ah never mind now I am ranting.....as you were

 

[CaptBuzzard]

It is nice to see that people agree to do the right thing for safety(most important, and legality. We only get one chance to live our lives, and when a company that takes all the side tracks to get things done tries to take that away, you have to stand your ground and refuse to fly. I fly boxes and all that, so not one single piece of freight is more important than I am, no matter what the company may think. I too am on the company $hit list because of my above post and a couple of other things. I was warned a long time ago when I was learning to be ready to stand up to a company, especially a 135 freight company. Most of them fly old $hitbox planes that should have been out of service a long time ago. They probably spend more on one plane's mx in a year on the petty things that keep breaking than to upgrade to a better plane. Cost is the issue with some of these companies. Keeping costs down keeps them in business. By doing the bare minimums on MX and paying low wages is how some of the smaller 135 operations keep in business. It would be great to be flying in some fairly new plane with Garmin 530's and wx radar and all that, but realistically they are old beat up planes with crusty paint jobs with equipped with nothing more than your local flight school's 172. Of course, that is the world of being a freight dog, and it makes you a darn good pilot on top of that, but safety is the most important. If you are at an outstation flying at 4am and you find something wrong with your aircraft and you refuse to fly it, it is your word against theirs. There most likely won't be any MX around for a few hours and you have just cancelled the flight. Well remember, if it was something you are unsure of and feel that safety is an issue, you have every right to refuse that aircraft. Let the company deal with those issues, and if you lose your job over it, you walked away with your life.

Like I said in my other post, I refused to fly because of safety and legality, and sat at an fbo for 8 hours before I could go. It almost cost me my job and of course I was accused of not wanting to take off when there were airports I could have used as an alt. I don't know what WX reports they were looking at, but I sure know the ones I saw. I wouldn't take the chance for my own good and I was put on their $hit list for it. Oh well, life goes on.

 

[mar]

"Welcome to the club"

Scubabri--As Avbug said, "Welcome to the club."

Man, I wish you could a spend a day with me at work because I feel like it's gonna take that long to explain how I feel about The Consequences of Saying No.

First of all. You are low-time, in an entry-level position, in the worst job market in probably 20 years. Here, all of your instincts are correct: You need to jealously guard your job until you find another one. But don't despair, even if you were to be fired from your job you can still find another one--but that may mean a setback that you don't really want to take.

As somebody else already said: Pick your battles.

That means, don't be dogmatic with your approach to the regs. The longer you fly commercially the more gray areas you'll identify and you'll learn there are more than one interpretation of the same reg.

Yes, your chief pilot, DO, POI and captain may all have different interpretations--and why not? They all have different agendas (agendi?).

As for going to the FAA with your concerns, I would highly recommend against this except for the most systematic and egregious violation. You can file an anonymous report with the FAA Safety Hotline 1-800-255-1111 if you're so compelled.

What about your concern with being caught and the FAA cops that come out from behind the clouds? In my experience, the Feds are mostly concerned with paperwork. Do they sometimes just show up and watch things? Yes. Are they the most experienced pilots in the world that have flown every type of airplane in every operation imaginable? Not by a long shot. Whenever I see a Fed milling about on the ramp I make a point of making eye contact, walking up to him, shake his hand and introduce myself. I'll let him know what I do at the company and what we're preparing for today. The point here is: I have nothing to hide. Ask me anything you want because I'm confident I know more about this airplane and more about our operation than you ever will. I fly five to six days a week, have explored every little dusty corner of this ships performance envelope, I have read my OpSpecs, GOM, AFM and FARs from front to back and even dog-eared the important parts. Wanna come for a ride? It's gonna be a long day but you're more than welcome to ride with us.

These guys are human. You're smart. And in the course of your career you may very well get stung. That doesn't mean the game is over. That just means you've been playing long enough to let your guard down and there just happened to be a Fed watching on that particular day. It doesn't mean you're a bad pilot.

Don't play the What-if game. It's really a drag. You know: What if I've got a broken nav light and the Captain is drunk and wants to descend below DA but my medical is out of currency and we only have a throw-over yoke and Jupiter is aligned with Uranus......

Leave that nonsense for the job interview. It's ridiculous. I've never seen someone say, "What if..." and then actually have it materialize. What-if, to me, is a lazy way of saying, "I don't really want to finish the job."

Back to the job interview: These guys are just begging to be lied to. (Why do you want to work for us?; Why should we hire you?; What's your biggest weakness?; Tell me about a time when you made a mistake in an airplane?) What a crock! No serious job applicant is ever going to give an honest answer to any of those questions and the whole time they're telling you, Just relax; be yourself; we just want to get to know you. Then why are you asking me if I've ever broken an FAR?

Every commercial pilot breaks FARs everyday!! Here's the one you should offer in a job interview: Sterile cockpit. Admit that you've engaged in nonessential conversation below 10,000 feet you Maverick! Here's another: Above FL350 if one pilot leaves the flight deck the other is reqd to "put on and use" supplemental O2. I wonder how often that happens?

So.

I've made suggestions on how to handle the Feds and the Job Interview. That leaves your superiors (so-called) and you. I'll leave you for last.

Your superiors. You have to throw them a bone every now and then. As for me, I never call the chief pilot or DO for anything. When I walk past their office I merely smile--no small talk. I don't care about their kids. I don't want to know if I'm being considered for upgrade. I just leave them alone. I'm a professional, I know the rules, I know what it takes to get the job done--and that's all they want. But one day, when something or someone crosses the line I'll go knock on the chief's door and see if he's got 5 minutes. Of course they're thinking, Hmm, must be serious cause he never even makes any small talk. If I had been bugging them that the planes documents were outta date or certain capt doesn't fly on profile or whatever, he'd just roll his eyes and think, Great what is it now?

Your captain is a little different because you have to sit next to him and you have to make small talk. Besides that, he's the one actively making decisions you may be uncomfortable with.

First rule: Never take the controls from him unless he's incapacitated. Second: Ask yourself, is damage to the airplane or human injury imminent? If so, you must say something. But it's not enough to merely point out the problem. You must also offer a solution. Example, "We're sliding off the runway, #2's not in reverse, get outta reverse." Don't assume he sees the problem like you do--if at all.

What if he's deliberately overloading the airplane? My answer here is going to draw some fire. Fact: empty airplanes make no money. The fuller the plane, the more money is made. What's the detriment with heavy airplanes: Performance and Protection to structure in case of high G-loading (and to a lesser degree: general wear and tear).

The most common retort to an objection to a heavy airplane is: Ah, it'll handle it. Sure. It'll handle it as long as you have the runway, no obstacles and in the case of a two-engine airplane, the second engine continues to work.

If you're going to have any sway in this matter you must address the overweight take off from this standpoint: The runway isn't long enough; It's too hot; We won't outclimb those trees; The right engine has been backfiring/not making torque/is weak. Try to be rational and firm. The crusty old jerks hate whiney crybabies. Show them you'd play ball but today you're calling BS.

That's the other thing about old crusty jerks--they'll test you. They try to see from what cloth you're cut. Throw them a couple bones and just like your chief pilot they'll listen better when you speak up.

As for yourself, you need to approach the whole thing philosophically. My philosophy, taught to me by someone with tons more experience, is: When faced with a decision (as we always are, everyday...) ask yourself FIRST: Is it Safe? SECOND: Is it Legal? THIRD: Is it comfortable for the passengers?

What's the lesson here? The lesson is: Safe does not mean Legal.

Huh? I had the same problem when I first started. I was taught if I followed all the rules, all the time, I would always be safe *and* legal.

Not so.

Example: You're VFR 135 in a single engine airplane with passengers. Your weather minimums are: Ceiling >1000, 1 mile or Ceiling <1000, 2 miles. At no time will you ever be below 500 except for takeoff or landing.

Here's the question: Are you safer scud running at 600 and 2 or 3 miles vis *OR* would it be safer to punch up through the overcast and cruise VFR over-the-top in unlimited vis and broad daylight in a single engine airplane?

To me it's obvious: The chances of an engine failure on top of an overcast are statistically smaller than that of a mid-air with another aircraft underneath the overcast or the chances of Controlled Flight In Terrain (CFIT).

This brings me to my final point: No flight is safe.

No flight is safe insofar as the definition of Safety is: Freedom From Risk.

As soon as we turn the engine we have accepted some risk. As soon as the airplane travels at any speed greater than a slow walk we have accepted some risk. So the greater question becomes, If we can't eliminate risk, how do we mitigate our exposure to risk?

This is the task of the professional pilot. To identify risk; To plan around the risk; To commit to the plan; and then to skillfully execute the plan.

The reckless pilot accepts the risk but doesn't care enough to do anything about it.

The professional pilot identifies the risk and learns to masterfully manage it.

I hope that helps a little.
Do the right thing.
Fly with your brain.
Peace.

 

[flx757]

Re: "Welcome to the club"

Jupiter is aligned with Uranus......

mar,

I can assure you that I will never let my guard down enough for THAT to happen.

However, I would like to commend you on a most excellent post. Very well said, indeed!

 

[80/20]

An old instructor once said:

"One of the most important things a pilot must learn is to know when to say no. Some never learn it."

 

[Timebuilder]

Nice post, Mar. I read the whole thing.

Rules have value, but they are made by people. HUMAN people. In that case, they can't cover every situation, no matter how big the reg book becomes. In fact, adherance to the regs really doesn't increase safety all of the time. Now, you can try and force an employer to follow all of the regs, all of the time.

But, be ready to sell 3/4 inch exterior plywood, if you do.

 

[JediNein]

Saying "No"

If you say "no," you don't get to be remembered as a smoking crater:

http://www.dailynews.com/Stories/0,1413,200%7E20943%7E1228633,00.html

-----

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20030207X00185&key=1

Just say "no" to practice approaches with an engine prop feathered.

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20030207X00184&key=1
Just say no to descending to avoid "other traffic" while landing.

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20030213X00217&key=1
Just say no to "simulated" engine outs on icy runways.

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20030124X00107&key=1
Just sat no to flying airplanes with a bad reputation.

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20020710X01086&key=1
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20020712X01100&key=1
Saying "no" in this case would have meant someone else died, not you, with two innocent passengers on board.

I walked out of a flying job, well, more like ran out of it. Since then, 6 of my previous co-workers have lost their certificates or gotten accidents and violations on their records. They chose to continue working there. The place has expanded and already lost certificates for two more instructors due to the same problems. The school is always squeaky clean, the instructors make the mistakes and judgment errors.

The immediate next job was even worse. It's the first time I've ever had three people that worked at the company sit me down after hours and tell me to not work there and why.

The next place my instincts told me to go elsewhere, but I was desperate. Three near disasters later I moved on.

After all that, I landed at an awesome flight school. I can not say enough good things about the owner. He's one of those friends that will be a friend now and in the hereafter. Everyone should be as lucky to have a boss like this. You can make a mistake in your flying and not get fired. You can refuse aircraft and students. Your students can fire you (to a certain extent) and you'll still have a job in the morning.

No employer pays enough to be worth life or limb. Good employers do exist.

(One is not in the military for a paycheck... just be shot at and it's not about a paycheck.)

Fly SAFE!
Jedi Nein