Conscientious Objector

[Deuce130]

PS. I'm disgusted with the Dem Congress now in place, too. Actually I'm disgusted with ANY of the "leadership" in DC at this point.

Something we can agree on. I think we should throw ALL of the bums out - starting with anyone who's never had a real job. Kenney and Lott immediately come to mind.

 

[FlyFastLiveSlow]

Something we can agree on. I think we should throw ALL of the bums out - starting with anyone who's never had a real job. Kenney and Lott immediately come to mind.

And a few others. (Santorum would have been high on my list if he hadn't succeeded in "un-electing" himself.) Let's disband the parties while we're at it. EVERYONE is an independent.

 

[BiffF15]

I probably should keep my dog out of this likely pointless fight, but I have a hard time letting emotion and ad hominem attacks get in the way of logic. Nothing like a little Hollywood propaganda to prop up your argument. Peaceful and stable is a matter of perspective. I was deployed 6 months out of the year throughout the 90's, and it wasn't building schools.

1. "Vietnam style war"--There are really only three things about this war that make it "Vietnam" like. 1. We are militarily kicking the crap out of the enemy (even more so than Vietnam). 2.There is a opposition political movement in this country, driven by the media, who's motivation is to lose the war (the good of the country be damned) and that is keeping the enemy fighters motivated to continue fighting. 3. The "insurgency" is being supported by neighboring countries and we are not prosecuting them for their support because of #2 (although a large portion of the fighters and their leadership are NOT Iraqis, unlike Vietnam).

There are dozens of ways this war is completely unlike Vietnam.

2. "No Reason"--Rid the Middle East of a mad dictator with WMD. Don't pull the "lie" crap out, everyone from the UN to Saddam himself thought he had more WMD than he did (and he did--most is likely in Syria).

3. "No Objective"--You mean besides establish a democratically elected stable government, that will not threaten it's neighbors? The hidden objective here is for Iraq to serve as a platform for spreading democracy through the Middle East. Prior to the Bathe party, Iraq was a democratic nation, and the most highly educated people in the ME. The problem with instability in the region is the lack of vibrant economies--unemployment and undereducation lead make the populace susceptible to radicalism. A further sub-objective is to anchor the fight in the middle east, and not here. Don't think it can't happen, you're fooling yourself. I'd much rather be killing them over there than here. This is working quite well, BTW.

4. "No definition of victory"--That would be meeting the objective, which you obviously didn't know, i.e. a stable Iraqi government that can survive without our direct (i.e. military) support.

5. "no exit strategy"--Do you mean no loser strategy? We exit when we achieve victory, and not one minute before. If you are not committed to that, you have no business going in in the first place. That is what torques me about politicians that voted FOR this when it benefited them, and are now looking for ways out. If the enemy smells weakness (and our press and dems reek of it everyday), they will stick it out. If they smelled our commitment, they would know it was lost and have gone home by now.

6. "That is not a reason I would join military"--Hmm, would there be a reason for you? Joining means self sacrifice and commitment...

Well done Newman!

And there is that damn bubble pass picture again...

"NEVER LET THE ENEMY CROSS YOUR NOSE FOR FREE"!

 

[NewmanF16]

Don't worry, if you fly in front of my nose the gun will be on. Unfortunately, that was my wingman "supporting." I'll have to post the video someday.

 

[Benhuntn]

Fly Fast Live Low....I think you on are to something. You might have discovered the fact that Cheney is really Fidel Castro working here as an illegal. That would explain all the lies. I tell ya man, you did a great job digging up those dammmm lies. I am proud of you. Now go do a search on how your mother lied to your dad about who sired you.

 

[hoover]

Wow, this thread is up to 9 pages now. I am so proud!

Seriously though, I have been thinking on this a lot and I thought of something I had not yet considered: Could I kill another person? I'm not speaking within the realm of self-defense. In a dogfight it is either him or you; I could come to terms with that. But to take off with a load of bombs knowing that I will drop those bombs, and people I have never met and never had any problems with; people who have friends and families just like me, are going to die.

I came to the conclusion that I don't think I could live with that knowledge.

So I am curious to hear what other people think about it.

 

[Mud Eagle]

Well, there's your answer.

Personally, when I'm being called in by a JTAC who is taking fire, it's the same "them or me" mentality -- except it's some grunt on the ground whose life I'm choosing over the enemy one I'm taking.

I have never had a problem pressing the pickle button or pulling the trigger when that is the scenario.

 

[Deuce130]

Wow, this thread is up to 9 pages now. I am so proud!

Seriously though, I have been thinking on this a lot and I thought of something I had not yet considered: Could I kill another person? I'm not speaking within the realm of self-defense. In a dogfight it is either him or you; I could come to terms with that. But to take off with a load of bombs knowing that I will drop those bombs, and people I have never met and never had any problems with; people who have friends and families just like me, are going to die.

I came to the conclusion that I don't think I could live with that knowledge.

So I am curious to hear what other people think about it.

During college, we had a lengthy discussion in class one day about this type of thing. From 15,000+ while sitting in a cockpit, you're in a sterile environment. You don't hear the blast of your bombs, see the bodies flying, see the blood, hear the screams, or see any results of collateral damage. You hit the button, keep flying at the speed of heat, and watch the tape later. Maybe see something on CNN. I think it definitely helps to easier be able to do their job. I've also had some conversations with Gunship guys, who also have slightly different issues to deal with than the fighter/bomber guys. They loiter, observe, watch the target walk around for a bit, let him think he's free and clear, then tear him up into little pieces. If they let the thoughts of "this guy has a family, friends, etc" creep into their heads, it makes the job a little tougher. It's easier not to think about those things, or deal with them BEFORE you go into combat.

 

[Mud Eagle]

I've also had some conversations with Gunship guys, who also have slightly different issues to deal with than the fighter/bomber guys. They loiter, observe, watch the target walk around for a bit, let him think he's free and clear, then tear him up into little pieces.

That's pretty much how fighter CAS works these days, too. Loiter...watch...kill when told to.

I don't think it's as clinical as you seem to make it out to be. I've strafed groups of enemy in the open, then had the JTACs email my squadron photos of the ensuing carnage. It's not pretty, and none of us were wrapped up in any bloodlust for what we'd done...but it sure had an emotional impact.

I won't argue that it's on the same plane as a ground pounder, to whom it has to feel significantly more personal...but for the CAS fighters at least, it's not one-pass-haul-ass on a building or a vehicle where you never get close to whom you've killed or even KNOW if there was actually a person in there. Maybe for the B-1 and B-52 guys who are dropping JDAMs from 25K it's as you say, but it is still pretty personal for fast jet CAS.

 

[AlbieF15]

Dudes,

I've been on the ground...driving in an M-113 over some of the same guys your squadron commanders and OGs strafed, mavericked, bombed, CBU'd, and killed in 1991.

Here's what I got to say to every one of them: "Thank you!" Because YOU had to stomach to go and kill every day people you didn't know, and come back and do it day after day, when we advanced we rolled over a tired, terrified, and significantly attrited enemy. I am here today because that dude with the RPG got wacked one night by "Pita", "Porkchop", and "Fester" in their A-10 boresighting targets with his IIR maverick. The T-72 that had my name on it died one night F-111 drivers "plinked" it into oblivion. The enemy special forces that were going to hide and let us run past them and snipe and kill me from the rear died en mass due to some hard pounding the days prior to G-day by a string of bombs dropped by a B-52. Those Chinese made APCs with Saggers--wasted by some F-16s and Hornet pilots dropping CBU, then mopped up by some A-10 drivers from Alexandria who did their work by day.

Nobody in their right mind wakes up and says "hey--I hope I get to go kill hundreds of people today..." In fact, sometimes the decisions you make can be gut wrenching. But as a fighter pilot stuck in harm's way who had to roll across the battlefield against three divisions of the Iraqi Republican Guard, I thank God every day for the guys with the grit, courage, and determination to not only fly their sorties, hit their DMPIs, and hit their "targets"...but also to KILL the guys in front of us that we had to go through to get home. I had planned to get out of the Air Force as soon as I could and go chase airline dreams. One reason I didn't was my perspective on that war and war in general meant I had something to share with my Air Force bros--that what they do REALLY matters at times, and saves lives! I've been sharing those tales for the last 18 years, and the lessons are still valid today.

So to Scrappy, Deuce, Magnum, and all the rest of you iron dropping guys--thank you again for all you do. You were probably beatin' off in high school (or Jr High) while all that was goin' on, but I know you've been back over there doing the job since then, and will continue to go back if asked.

Its all killing. Sometimes killing is very, very important.