Confessions of a Union Buster

[fischman]

For your viewing pleasure...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a-0gxca-VxM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vGl3H...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m96MtALXjsA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nRVB0...eature=related

 

[BentOver]

For your viewing pleasure...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a-0gxca-VxM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vGl3H...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m96MtALXjsA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nRVB0...eature=related

We on the furloughed side went through the "Union Busting 101" stuff many months ago...... It may be much later but I'm glad it's being brought up again...

That and extended days:angryfire We were dead set against them last year. Really wish it would have been a different msg last year.......

 

[HiSpeedFlyer]

Fischman, Watch out, B is twitching uncontrollably right now. Keep posting the truth and he may go into convulsions. Would you like that on your hands?

 

[fischman]

I choose to exercise my 5th amendment rights.

 

[pilotyip]

Been there done that, unions are limited in what they can deliver. One thing they can not deliver is job security. I was ALPA at TransAmerican (L-188/DC-8), 1978-79, owner decided he could make more money selling airplanes than flying them, going backward in seniority just when I get a Capt's bid, airline ended up in 1982 with C-130's in Angola Africa and New Guinea. Folded in 1984, I bailed to the corp. world in 1979. Handwriting was on the wall and there was nothing a union could do to protect my job. Zantop Teamsters (L-188) in 1996, union got in by one vote, first pay raise on contract due 3-26-1997, owner shut the company down on 3-25-1997. Jimmy Zantop figured why risk my $35M, Nothing a union could do to protect my job.

From WSJ, 3-24-11
But the union movement has been bleeding members for decades, and its appeal is dimming. In a March 11 poll, Gallup asked "what word or phrase comes to mind when you think of labor unions?" Thirty-four percent said "positive," 38% said "negative." Overall, Gallup said, this was a "less positive picture" than it found last summer—when approval of unions dipped to the second-lowest level since 1930. Unions have become just another unpopular special-interest group.

UNION: But indirectly, Enlightened management knows you have to match industry standards to be competitive in retaining and attracting employees. Therefore employees at those non-union companies benefit from the union company work rules without having to pay dues. BTW “So What” Unions are in the business of selling dues and restricting productivity. If the Teamsters were as enlightened as many of the higher quality managers, they would understand you just lost your job and needed every nickel to feed yourself and not take that $100 out of your last paycheck, which included credit for earned vacation days.

But what about when unions price themselves out of the market, and non-union companies such Toyota, JetBlue, etc step in and offer the consumers a similar product at a lower price. Why do union members support non-union places of work, i.e. all the UAW Buy American stickers on the bumpers of the cars parked in the Wal-Mart parking lot? If Bob King, had followed the old tactics of the UAW, he will most likely would have destroyed the remainder of the US auto industry. But he followed the tactic of the Germans unions, where raises in pay or benefits are more than offset by increases in productivity, he may truly become an American hero. No more jobs bank where you are paid for not working, no more 76-job classifications. In the end the consumer of a product determines the wages paid to the employees. BTW I do not shop at Wal-Mart I shop a union store down the street called Meijer's, why because they are a local business.

BTW I have been on both sides, the union organizers use the same tactics as the guy in the video.

 

[HiSpeedFlyer]

oh whatever. Not worth it.

 

[warlord19]

One of the better posts here, pilotyip.
Warlord19

 

[pilotyip]

One of the better posts here, pilotyip.
Warlord19

Thank you, not normally what I would expect from FI, where the only acceptable posts are "All management is evil and suck" or "Unions are perfect in every way" In those cases the message is never attacked, only the person with the message.

 

[fischman]

Thank you, not normally what I would expect from FI, where the only acceptable posts are "All management is evil and suck" or "Unions are perfect in every way" In those cases the message is never attacked, only the person with the message.

Ok. I'll say it.

Management is greedy and only looks out for themselves. Hence the term "Golden parachute".

ONLY the union is going to be looking out for YOUR best interest.

Paraphrased, but still true. Have a good Christmas.

 

[pilotyip]

Ok. I'll say it.

Management is greedy and only looks out for themselves. Hence the term "Golden parachute".

ONLY the union is going to be looking out for YOUR best interest.

Paraphrased, but still true. Have a good Christmas.

But they can not give you job security, and they breed off of this fear of management which you manifest. Anyone can have a union if they want, I could care less, but the union promises are hollow is the face of economic reality and owners desires. And anyone who sees thme as the second coming has probably not been in a union.

 

[G4dude]

But they can not give you job security, and they breed off of this fear of management which you manifest. Anyone can have a union if they want, I could care less, but the union promises are hollow is the face of economic reality and owners desires. And anyone who sees thme as the second coming has probably not been in a union.

You are obviously a Management Stooge. You only care about yourself, and you take delight in grinding in the faces of widows and orphans. What a horrible person you are.

 

[BentOver]

But they can not give you job security, and they breed off of this fear of management which you manifest. Anyone can have a union if they want, I could care less, but the union promises are hollow is the face of economic reality and owners desires. And anyone who sees thme as the second coming has probably not been in a union.

Nobody is asking for 100% job protection. Even the furloughed know there is very little that can be done. But make no mistake, if management had free reign over pay, schedule, 401(k) etc.. NJA pilots would be in very bad shape right now, along with the rest of the non-unionized industry. (Take a look at JetBlue, they get the raw end of a lot of deals. One of the worst medical programs, sub-standard retirement, and lower than average wages.

Do you think it was out of kindness that Sokol suspended the 401(k) matching for non-union employees but left the pilots alone? Do you think NJA pilots would still be getting to stay in nice hotels, get crew meals that are atleast edible, keep reward/airline points, not have to drive a rental all over the state of California, still have the highest industry pay...

That would have all vanished and NJA would have sucked to work for once again.

 

[CA1900]

Not to mention that Sokol would have furloughed directly from the fleets in disposal, without regard to seniority.

 

[pilotyip]

You are obviously a Management Stooge. You only care about yourself, and you take delight in grinding in the faces of widows and orphans. What a horrible person you are.

That is me scrooge, the ghosts of Christmas pasts will be haunting me this weekend.

 

[imacdog]

Not to mention that Sokol would have furloughed directly from the fleets in disposal, without regard to seniority.

You mean like how USA Jet did?

 

[pilotyip]

You mean like how USA Jet did?

Of course as opposed to Zantop where all pilots under an IBT contract were laid off in seniority on the same day. Then the ones who would accept a IBT union contract where a L-188 Captain was paid less pay and less days off than a JUS DA-20 Captain were offered their jobs back. Is that the kind of union contract we are talking about?

 

[BentOver]

Of course as opposed to Zantop where all pilots under an IBT contract were laid off in seniority on the same day. Then the ones who would accept a IBT union contract where a L-188 Captain was paid less pay and less days off than a JUS DA-20 Captain were offered their jobs back. Is that the kind of union contract we are talking about?

Wow, Zantop ..really.. You're comparing a company like Zantop to other Unions like NJASAP?..BTW who the hell is Zantop? Ya need to set your sights a bit higher..

 

[pilotyip]

Wow, Zantop ..really.. You're comparing a company like Zantop to other Unions like NJASAP?..BTW who the hell is Zantop? Ya need to set your sights a bit higher..

Zantop, KYIP on-demand cargo, represented by IBT 747, only relating my union expereince. Real pilots know all about Zantop, a legend in the industry, the source of many of the major pilots, and a bunch of great guys who still stay in touch. I was lucky to work there and wish I could have retired from there flying my favorite airplane.

 

[imacdog]

YIP you really need to do a better job comparing the NJA pilot contract with other s-hole operators at YIP. . The company can't just decide to change the payrates, ya idiot.

 

[BentOver]

Zantop, KYIP on-demand cargo, represented by IBT 747, only relating my union expereince. Real pilots know all about Zantop, a legend in the industry, the source of many of the major pilots, and a bunch of great guys who still stay in touch. I was lucky to work there and wish I could have retired from there flying my favorite airplane.

Ahh I see, and all along I thought it was a prescription for a really inflamed case of internal hemoroids..... Every flippin company who operated in the past 30 years has been the source of many major airline pilots.... Hell even Gulfstream International has legacy guys..... Same with Great Lakes.

I don't have favorite airplanes, or dream of flying into the wild blue yonder in my DC-3.. I want to get paid and treated correctly. I don't want to kick the tires, light the fires and smoke with a bunch of guys on the ramp. I want to know that some 40 yr. old lawyers son, won't fu$k up a job because he's a idiot who looks like he should be a greeter at Walmart. If the "plan", sales, profits aren't working out, or if WB doesn't like it, Hansell and Co. will be gone and replaced long before many pilots at Netjets retire. Furloughees included. That is why I like my Union and my contract. Long after Hansell is gone, I, and many many pilots, will be still working under a fine set of work rules that weren't fuc%ed by some kid barely able to wipe his own nose.

Even if WB has a differnet smaller plan for NJA. Atleast I can hold my head up high and be proud of what I(we) were able to accomplish in our short time at NJA. But make no mistake, I'm young enough and healthy enough that eventually attrition will run it's course. And I enjoy the fact that even in 10-15 years when my number is called again, and assuming I haven't gone a different direction, I'll be able to come back to a place with a very nice set of work rules.

 

[pilotyip]

The company can't just decide to change the payrates, ya idiot.

Sure they can, the owner says I am going out of business, parks his airplanes. Then says to a desperate pilot group, who are not as cool, smart, or good looking as guys who work for NJ, if you ever want a pay check again, modify your contact and I will hire 10 of you back to operate my 2 airplanes I am going to keep flying. Out of a pilot force of 150, 10 elected that this was a good idea. 36K/yr base for an Electra Captain, four days off per month, but they still paid union dues.

I don't have favorite airplanes, or dream of flying into the wild blue yonder in my DC-3.. I want to get paid and treated correctly. I don't want to kick the tires, light the fires and smoke with a bunch of guys on the ramp.

Ha ha, too bad, I guess you and I look at the world differently. But that is the beauty of being an American. I fly because I like to, live near an airport, hang around the airport on my days off with a bunch guys like me who think the sound of a C-47 or B-17 engine starting as one of the most beautiful sound in the world.

If I didn’t like airplanes or flying, I don’t think I would ever be happy in this business.

 

[imacdog]

Sounds like 140 of those Zantop pilots made the right move. Of course, pilots these days are a bit brighter - we realize that flying airplanes costs money and we will not subsidize a bad business with piss poor wages. We are professionals and deserve to be paid accordingly. If management can't pay professional wages for professional work then it's time to close shop or get new management.

 

[pilotyip]

Sounds like 140 of those Zantop pilots made the right move. Of course, pilots these days are a bit brighter - we realize that flying airplanes costs money and we will not subsidize a bad business with piss poor wages. We are professionals and deserve to be paid accordingly. If management can't pay professional wages for professional work then it's time to close shop or get new management.

yea a lot of them went to a better place JUS, and most of them voted against the IBT when they tired to get into JUS.

 

[BentOver]

Ha ha, too bad, I guess you and I look at the world differently. But that is the beauty of being an American. I fly because I like to, live near an airport, hang around the airport on my days off with a bunch guys like me who think the sound of a C-47 or B-17 engine starting as one of the most beautiful sound in the world.

If I didn’t like airplanes or flying, I don’t think I would ever be happy in this business.

And that explains your position. This is not a hobby for me. It's a career and I expect to be treated fairly and financially correct. You'll do anything to sit in a cockpit (of some old C-47) I will not.

 

[pilotyip]

And that explains your position. This is not a hobby for me. It's a career and I expect to be treated fairly and financially correct. You'll do anything to sit in a cockpit (of some old C-47) I will not.

Are you judging me? I have never judged you.

The fact that I am happy every time I get into an airplane and it makes getting up in the morning and working fun, that is the reason I do it. Is there something wrong with that? am I not a professional? I know little of you.

I have had a great career and would change little.

I am living the dream of a 5 year old. I have been real lucky and it has been an adventure and I would do it all over again, particularly the military flying. I wanted to fly from the first time in 1947, I saw a P-51 Mustang buzz the National Guard Armory. I built the models, took flight lessons and pursued getting a slot in the military from my first day of college. Joined the Navy, in 1965, flew all over the world, did neat things, landed on boats, flew in Vietnam.

Married a great gal who supported me, raised the family, put up with deployments, unemployment, and moves every 3 years and never threatened to bail out. She can pack up a household in one day to move to the next job.

We are all hostages to fortune (thank you E Gann), and do not have the control over our lives we would like to think we do. The guys who make it to the FedEx, SWA, NJ level are very fortunate to be where they are, but there is an element of luck and timing that has nothing to do with their skill or desire.

 

[CA1900]

Additionally, we aren't flying night cargo -- we're flying private jets. I enjoy flying too, but I will not have my family's finances sabotaged to subsidize it. As it is, we're still underpaid for the amount of work we do. I won't do this job for any less.

 

[BentOver]

I am judging your stance on Unions and your comparing some small outfit in YIP with a company like NJA (or any other large airline).

Sorry you had a bad experience with the IBT with a company most have never heard of back in the day. But to compare some mom-and-pop fly by night cargo carrier, (and their apparent lack of a sustainable business) to a pilot group the size of NJA (and the need for a solid contract) is apples to oranges. Your company did not go out of business because of the Union or contract. They went out of business most certainly because of a business decision or two made by the people running the airline or at worst the economy at that time.

Glad you love it like a 5 year old. Can't put that down. I would rather fly than work ALMOST any other job. But won't do it for substandard wages or working conditions. Even my small time job now pays really well, and offers a great QOL. But if that weren't the case I'd be attempting to leave.

Hell, MLB players love to play baseball, and they have a Union..Because if they didn't they'd still be stuck in the 1950's wages while the owners make hundreds of millions off their players hard work.

 

[pilotyip]

I am judging your stance on Unions and your comparing some small outfit in YIP with a company like NJA (or any other large airline). ........wages while the owners make hundreds of millions off their players hard work.

Agreed lets leave it at that, MerryChristmas

 

[Hogprint]

Long after Hansell is gone, I, and many many pilots, will be still working under a fine set of work rules that weren't fuc%ed by some kid barely able to wipe his own nose.

That could have read..."long after Hart, Moisture, Hansell are gone"...but you get the point!

 

[HalinTexas]

Few students of history here. Fewer that have been laid off or flew a BK carrier down. Almost none have ever started a business or spent much time in the non-flying world. It's all about luck, timing, networking, and interviewing. It's less and less about aviating.

I've left the country 3 times in as many years to fly, because there are no job here in the US. ALPA did (does) nothing to help me out. My pilot friends have been the only ones to help. Got a call today, even. I've started two businesses, neither are doing too well. Capitalization is key. I'm living on my retirement. I was a "driver's helper" for UPS last month at $8.50 an hour. College degree which is meaningless after 20 years if you've done nothing with it.

I know who Zantop is. I know who Braniff, Pan Am and Eastern were. I count many friends and associates that have flown at those carriers. I had instructors at ATA that came from those places and they've forgotten more about aviation and airlines than many of you will ever learn. I've ridden in just about every jumpseat out there more than once. You're all about the same as far as piloting goes. If they were ex-military, that's their story. If they were "hippy-civilians" like me, and survived this industry via those defunct carries, that's their story. If they were just commuter/RJ pilots that's theirs. Of the three, the most interesting and most deserving of my personal respect as aviators are the second group. No offense to those that have served, and I appreciate your service.

Walk a mile in a man's shoes......