Compass

[check six]

For Compass new hires:

1. If flowthrough to mainline Delta still available for new hires?

2. If you get PIC type at initial new hire training, when can you log PIC?
I assume it is only while flying left seat.

Thanks,

Check Six

 

[Flyer1015]

1. No. The flowthrough was good for only those already on property at Compass when they were sold off in Summer 2010. Anyone hired after that does not get any flowthrough rights at Delta. But, in a gift that keeps giving, if Delta furloughs, they will be flowing back and taking your left seats. Despite the fact they ended your flowthrough.

2. No. You can log PIC from left seat only. Only exception would be if you are using the time during sole-manipulation of controls to count as "SIC performing the duties of PIC" for the purposes of meeting time for the ATP. Some of it can count this way, but I'm sure you'll hear 20 different answers from 10 different people. But for your resume purposes, for the time SWA/Fedex/others want, you cannot log PIC time. In fact, both Fedex and Southwest clarify on thier website that the PIC time they want is not just sole manipulator of controls, but the one PIC who signs off for the airplane. Because they realize some people use the (legal method) of using SIC performing duties of PIC for the ATP, but on resume, that doesn't count as PIC time. It counts towards the certificate only.


Here is Fedex exact wording:

1500 hours total fixed-wing time as pilot-in-command (PIC) or second-in-command in multi-engine turbo-prop A/C or jet A/C or combination thereof, including a minimum of 1000 hours total fixed-wing pilot-in-command in multi-engine turbo prop A/C or jet A/C or combination thereof. Note: PIC for this purpose is defined as Captain/Aircraft Commander of record, not simply the sole manipulator of the controls. Note: FedEx considers only pilot time in fixed wing aircraft toward minimum qualifications. This does not include simulator, helicopter, flight engineer, bombardier, navigator, RIO, EWO, WSO, NFO, or Special Crew.



So the "SIC performing duties of PIC" time can count from the right seat, but only for the purposes of meeting the requirements of a certificate, the ATP itself. At no point is this considered actual PIC time that counts as resume time for Fedex or Southwest.

 

[General Lee]

1. No. The flowthrough was good for only those already on property at Compass when they were sold off in Summer 2010. Anyone hired after that does not get any flowthrough rights at Delta. But, in a gift that keeps giving, if Delta furloughs, they will be flowing back and taking your left seats. Despite the fact they ended your flowthrough.

2. No. You can log PIC from left seat only. Only exception would be if you are using the time during sole-manipulation of controls to count as "SIC performing the duties of PIC" for the purposes of meeting time for the ATP. Some of it can count this way, but I'm sure you'll hear 20 different answers from 10 different people. But for your resume purposes, for the time SWA/Fedex/others want, you cannot log PIC time. In fact, both Fedex and Southwest clarify on thier website that the PIC time they want is not just sole manipulator of controls, but the one PIC who signs off for the airplane. Because they realize some people use the (legal method) of using SIC performing duties of PIC for the ATP, but on resume, that doesn't count as PIC time. It counts towards the certificate only.


Here is Fedex exact wording:

1500 hours total fixed-wing time as pilot-in-command (PIC) or second-in-command in multi-engine turbo-prop A/C or jet A/C or combination thereof, including a minimum of 1000 hours total fixed-wing pilot-in-command in multi-engine turbo prop A/C or jet A/C or combination thereof. Note: PIC for this purpose is defined as Captain/Aircraft Commander of record, not simply the sole manipulator of the controls. Note: FedEx considers only pilot time in fixed wing aircraft toward minimum qualifications. This does not include simulator, helicopter, flight engineer, bombardier, navigator, RIO, EWO, WSO, NFO, or Special Crew.



So the "SIC performing duties of PIC" time can count from the right seat, but only for the purposes of meeting the requirements of a certificate, the ATP itself. At no point is this considered actual PIC time that counts as resume time for Fedex or Southwest.

Wow, you really are disgruntled. If Delta ever did furlough again, they would take the left and right seats at Compass, but in return those original guys can come on over, no interview, and that could help current or future Compass pilots move up the ladder there. That was the deal, and for some reason I believe you are the type that would try to break any deal, especially if it is better for you. Have you recently walked away from a small house you bought a couple years ago? And you want to work for Delta? I thought you were going to Qatar? Have fun in the Sandpit. You have a bad attitude, and that would be evident in any interview, and because of this you may stay at Pinnacle forever.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[CX880]

You have a bad attitude, and that would be evident in any interview, and because of this you may stay at Pinnacle forever.

Not true most interviews are mind games with the recruiters.

 

[Flyer1015]

Wow, you really are disgruntled. If Delta ever did furlough again, they would take the left and right seats at Compass, but in return those original guys can come on over, no interview, and that could help current or future Compass pilots move up the ladder there. That was the deal, and for some reason I believe you are the type that would try to break any deal, especially if it is better for you. Have you recently walked away from a small house you bought a couple years ago? And you want to work for Delta? I thought you were going to Qatar? Have fun in the Sandpit. You have a bad attitude, and that would be evident in any interview, and because of this you may stay at Pinnacle forever.


Bye Bye---General Lee

Excuse me General, if I was to start at Compass tomorrow, I get NO flowthrough rights to Delta. However, if for some reason Delta had to furlough, they would come straight to Compass and displace me out of the left seat, the right seat as well (furlough for me). And what do I get in return for this? The Delta flowthrough program for Compass ended in Summer 2010 once they were sold off. In fairness, the flowback provisions should end the day after the last Compass pilot has flowed up. After that day, you tell me, what incentive does Compass have to take Delta furlough flowbacks? More importantly, what do I (as a Compass pilot) have to gain by having the constant threat of Delta flowbacks, even after all the Compass flowups are already gone? It is interesting that the flowback ended for those after Summer 2010, but the flowback provisions will continue indefinitely. Hence, the gift that keeps on giving.


And don't worry. If I got hired at Emirates, I'd far out-earn what I'd make at Delta. And a better pension, too. How's that 32.5% paycut working out? See, I can be a do**he too.

 

[Jar Jar]

you tell me, what incentive does Compass have to take Delta furlough flowbacks? More importantly, what do I (as a Compass pilot) have to gain by having the constant threat of Delta flowbacks, even after all the Compass flowups are already gone? It is interesting that the flowback ended for those after Summer 2010, but the flowback provisions will continue indefinitely. Hence, the gift that keeps on giving.


And don't worry. If I got hired at Emirates, I'd far out-earn what I'd make at Delta. And a better pension, too. How's that 32.5% paycut working out? See, I can be a do**he too.

What they have to "gain" is that they get to keep flying their shiny ERJs. See, if the "flow-through" ends then so does the 76 seat flying that CPZ performs for DAL. Its a flow-through with teeth. So the incentive to take flow-backs as you put it, is that it allows them to retain their current 175 DAL flying.

The flow down was left in place because when all of the great thinkers of the 4 party talks got together they figured out that a flow-down was seperate from a flow-up, and that even when a flow-up is ended a flow-down being in place does not eliminate a flow-through. Seriously.

So DAL gets to keep the 36 175s, and end the flow-up as well.

 

[Flyer1015]

What they have to "gain" is that they get to keep flying their shiny ERJs. See, if the "flow-through" ends then so does the 76 seat flying that CPZ performs for DAL. Its a flow-through with teeth. So the incentive to take flow-backs as you put it, is that it allows them to retain their current 175 DAL flying.

The flow down was left in place because when all of the great thinkers of the 4 party talks got together they figured out that a flow-down was seperate from a flow-up, and that even when a flow-up is ended a flow-down being in place does not eliminate a flow-through. Seriously.

So DAL gets to keep the 36 175s, and end the flow-up as well.

You have contradicted yourself by the two bolded portions above. On one hand you are claiming that Compass could not exist if the flowthrough ended. Then on the other hand you are saying that yeah the flowthrough can end, and that a flowback is a separate issue. So which is it? The flowthrough SHOULD have ended the flowback as well. And clearly, even with no flowthrough, Compass is continuing to fly as a Delta Connection carrier.

You still didn't explain why the flow DOWN should be kept in place. Sure, they are flying shiny EMJ-170s, but it's not like Delta has done anything in this industry to bring in the regional flying. Quite the opposite, in fact, you were leaders in industry outsourcing of regional jet flying. Compass formed as a result of a NWA Pilot sellout. Why punish the current Compass group, many of them hired after the buyout, and quite a few hired after the selloff to TSA?

 

[Jar Jar]

You have contradicted yourself by the two bolded portions above. On one hand you are claiming that Compass could not exist if the flowthrough ended. Then on the other hand you are saying that yeah the flowthrough can end, and that a flowback is a separate issue. So which is it? The flowthrough SHOULD have ended the flowback as well. And clearly, even with no flowthrough, Compass is continuing to fly as a Delta Connection carrier.

You still didn't explain why the flow DOWN should be kept in place. Sure, they are flying shiny EMJ-170s, but it's not like Delta has done anything in this industry to bring in the regional flying. Quite the opposite, in fact, you were leaders in industry outsourcing of regional jet flying. Compass formed as a result of a NWA Pilot sellout. Why punish the current Compass group, many of them hired after the buyout, and quite a few hired after the selloff to TSA?

Sorry I can't fix stupid. If you're willing to pay then I'll spend more of my time trying to teach you how to read.

 

[General Lee]

Excuse me General, if I was to start at Compass tomorrow, I get NO flowthrough rights to Delta. However, if for some reason Delta had to furlough, they would come straight to Compass and displace me out of the left seat, the right seat as well (furlough for me). And what do I get in return for this? The Delta flowthrough program for Compass ended in Summer 2010 once they were sold off. In fairness, the flowback provisions should end the day after the last Compass pilot has flowed up. After that day, you tell me, what incentive does Compass have to take Delta furlough flowbacks? More importantly, what do I (as a Compass pilot) have to gain by having the constant threat of Delta flowbacks, even after all the Compass flowups are already gone? It is interesting that the flowback ended for those after Summer 2010, but the flowback provisions will continue indefinitely. Hence, the gift that keeps on giving.


And don't worry. If I got hired at Emirates, I'd far out-earn what I'd make at Delta. And a better pension, too. How's that 32.5% paycut working out? See, I can be a do**he too.

So, you'd sign a deal and then walk away from it? If all of those Compass guys came over to Delta, and then there was a furlough, a lot of them would go back to Compass. That's the deal. If you were to make your "own deal"...... Delta bought NWA, and that deal was already made there. There were rumblings when Delta sold Compass not to even have the flow up or flow down, but ALPA and the Company decided it was the right thing to do, to allow the original deal to continue for everyone who was there at the time. That's a good thing, and something that didn't have to continue at all. If all of the original Compass guys flow up to Delta, that will give good movement for the guys who weren't there originally too. A furlough down to Compass is unlikely, but that is a part of the deal. And what do you do if you are a Compass pilot and there is a constant threat of someone flowing down on top of you? Wait, you didn't know that could happen when you interviewed? If you did, why are you complaining? That's the deal, and you don't have to work there if you don't want to. Quit complaining, jeez.

If you want to go to Dubai and fly for Emirates, or Doha and fly for Qatari, then just do it. If you read PPRUNE, a lot of people there don't really like it. Sure, you can pretend you're in the States, and there are a lot of things there that are close to being the same, but then there are a lot of things that are TOTALLY different. It's never like just finishing a trip and coming HOME to relax for 5 days before the next one. I have friends there in Dubai who say the traffic there is a nightmare, with insane people driving without traffic laws. (probably a bit like NYC) It's ungodly hot, with Arizona temps and Florida humidity. The laws are different there too, and the justice system is "interesting." But, you probably could make a lot of money, and the first $80K is tax free for the US, but after that I think you owe US taxes if you want to return? And eventually, you probably would. Your wife may or may not like it half way around the World, and then you really would have big problems. It's not for everyone, that is for sure.

BTW, we did have a 47% pay cut after BK, but at that time we were limited to 75 hours of pay per month, and then rest was put into a "bank." Since then, we did get about 17% of that back, and now that the company is doing a lot better, more is to follow. I also seem to fly a bit more than 75 hours per month (longer legs to Europe and S America help, still giving me a lot of days off per month), and being fairly senior in ATL on the 767ER, I seem to pick up greenslips often during the Summer and around some holidays that I want to fly during. My wife does well as an Ad Exec here in ATL, so I don't have to fly a lot if I don't want to. Like my Momma used to say "You can fall in love with a rich girl just as fast as falling in love with a poor one." In the meantime, I get to fly to some great places and enjoy going to "work". Have a great one!



Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[OPECJet]

Just curious...

If I have it right, then only the guys on Compass property at a certain date are eligible for the flowthrough to DAL. Anyone hired after that would apply as any other pilot.

Would those pilots ineligible for the flowthrough be bumped by furloughed DAL guys is there was a flowback?

No dog in the fight, just curious.

 

[titans10]

Just curious...

If I have it right, then only the guys on Compass property at a certain date are eligible for the flowthrough to DAL. Anyone hired after that would apply as any other pilot.

Would those pilots ineligible for the flowthrough be bumped by furloughed DAL guys is there was a flowback?

No dog in the fight, just curious.

1. Yes

2. Yes


That is how it is set up. Everyone at comass should know about it already.
Everyone that interviews and accepts a job at compass knows about it also

 

[WMUSIGPI]

So, you'd sign a deal and then walk away from it? If all of those Compass guys came over to Delta, and then there was a furlough, a lot of them would go back to Compass. That's the deal. If you were to make your "own deal"...... Delta bought NWA, and that deal was already made there. There were rumblings when Delta sold Compass not to even have the flow up or flow down, but ALPA and the Company decided it was the right thing to do, to allow the original deal to continue for everyone who was there at the time. That's a good thing, and something that didn't have to continue at all. If all of the original Compass guys flow up to Delta, that will give good movement for the guys who weren't there originally too. A furlough down to Compass is unlikely, but that is a part of the deal. And what do you do if you are a Compass pilot and there is a constant threat of someone flowing down on top of you? Wait, you didn't know that could happen when you interviewed? If you did, why are you complaining? That's the deal, and you don't have to work there if you don't want to. Quit complaining, jeez.

If you want to go to Dubai and fly for Emirates, or Doha and fly for Qatari, then just do it. If you read PPRUNE, a lot of people there don't really like it. Sure, you can pretend you're in the States, and there are a lot of things there that are close to being the same, but then there are a lot of things that are TOTALLY different. It's never like just finishing a trip and coming HOME to relax for 5 days before the next one. I have friends there in Dubai who say the traffic there is a nightmare, with insane people driving without traffic laws. (probably a bit like NYC) It's ungodly hot, with Arizona temps and Florida humidity. The laws are different there too, and the justice system is "interesting." But, you probably could make a lot of money, and the first $80K is tax free for the US, but after that I think you owe US taxes if you want to return? And eventually, you probably would. Your wife may or may not like it half way around the World, and then you really would have big problems. It's not for everyone, that is for sure.

BTW, we did have a 47% pay cut after BK, but at that time we were limited to 75 hours of pay per month, and then rest was put into a "bank." Since then, we did get about 17% of that back, and now that the company is doing a lot better, more is to follow. I also seem to fly a bit more than 75 hours per month (longer legs to Europe and S America help, still giving me a lot of days off per month), and being fairly senior in ATL on the 767ER, I seem to pick up greenslips often during the Summer and around some holidays that I want to fly during. My wife does well as an Ad Exec here in ATL, so I don't have to fly a lot if I don't want to. Like my Momma used to say "You can fall in love with a rich girl just as fast as falling in love with a poor one." In the meantime, I get to fly to some great places and enjoy going to "work". Have a great one!



Bye Bye--General Lee

Gee, kina like what you guys did with the Mesaba flow, and all of Freedom's flying?

 

[WMUSIGPI]

Just curious...

If I have it right, then only the guys on Compass property at a certain date are eligible for the flowthrough to DAL. Anyone hired after that would apply as any other pilot.

Would those pilots ineligible for the flowthrough be bumped by furloughed DAL guys is there was a flowback?

No dog in the fight, just curious.

Yes and Yes.
Delta took a fair deal agreed to between NWA and Compass and Mesaba and peed all over it. At least with the Mesaba deal the flow back was cancelled with the flow up.

 

[Jar Jar]

ALPA and the Company decided it was the right thing to do, to allow the original deal to continue for everyone who was there at the time. That's a good thing, and something that didn't have to continue at all.

You're missing the part about how if the flow ended so did the 36 airplanes worth of 76 seat capacity. It's in your section 1, without the flow through the total number of outsourced 76 seat airframes gets reduced.

IMO that was probably a greater factor in the decision to continue the flow via the temporary flow up and the endless flowdown versus ALPA and DAL/TSH's ethics.

 

[Explosive]

Gee, kina like what you guys did with the Mesaba flow, and all of Freedom's flying?

NWA LOA 2008-01:
The right of any company pilot to Flow Down to MSA, or MSA pilot to
Flow Up to NWA, pursuant to the terms of this Letter of Agreement, shall
be effective only so long as MSA remains an Affiliate of the Company,
provided the parties will, prior to the termination of the Flow through
rights referenced herein, meet and confer for the purpose of discussing
whether continuation or modification of this Flow Through Agreement
would be appropriate given the circumstances at that time.

From the NWA CBA:
The term “Affiliate” means (i) NAC, (ii) any subsidiary, parent or division of the Company or NAC or any subsidiary, parent or division of either a parent or subsidiary of the Company or NAC or (iii) any entity that controls or manages NAC or the Company or is controlled by or managed by NAC or the Company.

 

[General Lee]

Gee, kina like what you guys did with the Mesaba flow, and all of Freedom's flying?

That was the deal, 109 or whatever flowups allowed. And all of Freedom's flying? I don't remember that one.



Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[Flyer1015]

So who officially ended the flowup deal, but kept the flowdown deal intact? Delta management? Or DALPA?

 

[flyboyike]

So who officially ended the flowup deal, but kept the flowdown deal intact? Delta management? Or DALPA?

What Delta taketh away, Delta taketh away.

 

[General Lee]

So who officially ended the flowup deal, but kept the flowdown deal intact? Delta management? Or DALPA?

You mean with Mesaba? Only people flowed UP, not down, which was a good deal overall for them. People left, didn't get furloughed at DL, moved on with life to bigger and better things, and people still at Mesaba got to move up. Sounds like a great deal for them. Then, any FLOW DOWN is cancelled. Hmmmmm. I don't think the flow ups had to leave DL. Sounds like again, the MESABA people got a better deal. Compass was sold to TSA, and according to the contract, would lose the ability to flow up or down at that point. ALPA negotiated to keep the original guys at Compass the ability to flow up, and flow down at the exact number. I don't see that as a bad thing, it is a win win for everyone there, and going into the job everyone now knows what the deal is. As original Compass people continue to move over to DL, the other Compass people get to move up the ladder, and they can still try to interview at Delta if they wish (if they get an interview just like everyone else out there). Sounds like a win win on the Compass deal, and a win then lose on the Mesaba deal. Are you sure the flow down at Compass is unlimited, or the exact amount that can flow up can flow down? You say it is the gift that keeps giving, but there would be a certain amount of Compass people that can and WILL flow up, which is something you aren't seeing.



Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[Jar Jar]

I already explained that ALPA/DALPA/DAL/TSH figured out that a flow-down being intact results in a flow-thru being intact. These 4 parties determined that to be the case. I don't agree with it but they came to that conclusion because it allowed DAL to keep the 76 seat capacity long term.

This matters because as long as a flow-thru (aka flow-down as explained above) is intact then the 76 seat capacity remains. If the flow-thru is not intact, delta loses the ability to outsource 36 76seat airframes. This was in the NWA section 1 and carried over in the merger.