Compass agreement

[Monster Buck]

Heyas ACL,

I'd forget arguing with these guys. They always have an excuse...

Nu

Hey Nu, I have listened to your posts on here for a few years. I have a feeling that this got blown out of proportion. I know profit personally and can say without hesitation he is a great pilot that people like to fly with and has a great safety record to boot. On these forums we talk about thinks we are all very passionate about. Unfortunately there are jackasses on here like Joe and it confuses the tone. I would venture to bet that if you, me, super, acl and some of the rest were at the bar having beers without loosing meaning with just these boards we would all have 10000 more things in common cord than not.:beer:

 

[ACL65PILOT]

True, Buck. But ego is where all of this falls apart. True?
Some take the hit some do not, but if you are at a regional and expect to leap from a mainline pilot, you will have a long wait ahead of you.
All I have to say is Prenup.
FWIW, Super is a great guy.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Hey Nu, I have listened to your posts on here for a few years. I have a feeling that this got blown out of proportion. I know profit personally and can say without hesitation he is a great pilot that people like to fly with and has a great safety record to boot. On these forums we talk about thinks we are all very passionate about. Unfortunately there are jackasses on here like Joe and it confuses the tone. I would venture to bet that if you, me, super, acl and some of the rest were at the bar having beers without loosing meaning with just these boards we would all have 10000 more things in common cord than not.:beer:

You know that without even knowing me....I suspect that "profit" and I are a lot a like....I believe his side of the story on how things went down far more than I believe "Nu's" side....

Many of us have chosen to stay at the better regionals (ASA, CMR, Mesaba, etc.).....and many of us tried to work with the mainline interests many years ago. The problem was ignored for far too many years and now we find ourselves on opposites sides of a scope wall that likely will never come down....It's too bad because I know I would rather be :beer: with you than having to defend my job....

 

[Monster Buck]

You know that without even knowing me....I suspect that "profit" and I are a lot a like....I believe his side of the story on how things went down far more than I believe "Nu's" side....

Many of us have chosen to stay at the better regionals (ASA, CMR, Mesaba, etc.).....and many of us tried to work with the mainline interests many years ago. The problem was ignored for far too many years and now we find ourselves on opposites sides of a scope wall that likely will never come down....It's too bad because I know I would rather be :beer: with you than having to defend my job....

Joe I have read hundreds of your posts. I will admit that. You are well versed with your stance as you defend it often. I commend you with that. What I don't like is that you blame many including acl of their tone changing after they went over. When you have done much of the same as the ones that you berate. That is what I don't like.

Scope walls are not between pilots, they are between company's. Not everyone acts or feels like as I do on that matter. I have never been a part to treating any pilot any different. But I strongly defend, AS I ALWAYS HAVE, keeping that higher dream alive at the majors. Here is where we differ, even if it didn't include me. Those walls help to slow the degradation of the jobs at the majors. Walls that are an unfortunate result of current managerial styles. Walls that unfortunately divide what you once dreamed of and what you have now. As you stated "you defend your job"....I defend what was my dream from the beginning, with or without being included. My principle hasn't changed.

 

[Monster Buck]

True, Buck. But ego is where all of this falls apart. True?
Some take the hit some do not, but if you are at a regional and expect to leap from a mainline pilot, you will have a long wait ahead of you.
All I have to say is Prenup.
FWIW, Super is a great guy.

I don't understand what you mean by "and expect to leap from a mainline pilot." I'm sure you don't mean to a mainline pilot, since that is what half of the regional pilots do.

I don't remember saying anything about Super.

Ego can kill, I agree. There are some misconceptions with the Mesaba pilots and many of their positions. There is some misinformation about their past. When posts come up that are not properly backed with correct information it causes heated responses. That is what has happened, and nothing more.

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

Joe I have read hundreds of your posts. I will admit that. You are well versed with your stance as you defend it often. I commend you with that. What I don't like is that you blame many including acl of their tone changing after they went over. When you have done much of the same as the ones that you berate. That is what I don't like.

Scope walls are not between pilots, they are between company's. Not everyone acts or feels like as I do on that matter. I have never been a part to treating any pilot any different. But I strongly defend, AS I ALWAYS HAVE, keeping that higher dream alive at the majors. Here is where we differ, even if it didn't include me. Those walls help to slow the degradation of the jobs at the majors. Walls that are an unfortunate result of current managerial styles. Walls that unfortunately divide what you once dreamed of and what you have now. As you stated "you defend your job"....I defend what was my dream from the beginning, with or without being included. My principle hasn't changed.

The nail has been hit on the head.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Joe I have read hundreds of your posts. I will admit that. You are well versed with your stance as you defend it often. I commend you with that.

I commend you also for your posts...they are some of the more reasonable ones I see from the mainline perspective. My perspective is one of seeing it from the inner circles of ALPA going back to the first ALPA scope committees of the mid '90s.....Nothing has seemed to change except for the members of the "high priority" committees that ALPA puts together. I will never forget participating in a small carrier bargaining conference about 7 years ago. Wychor was there and he had assumed the positon of chairing the new scope committee (BSIC). I asked him one morning over breakfast if he had read the previous committee reports dating back to 1995. His response was "no"....

What I don't like is that you blame many including acl of their tone changing after they went over. When you have done much of the same as the ones that you berate. That is what I don't like.

Actually ACL has never changed his tune...Fins is the one who changed. He worked along side me as an RJDC supporter....Now he has a different perspective. Things look different from different sides of the fence.

I don't even blame Fins....His job is threatened by my job....My job is threatened by his defense of his job...Heck of a way to run a union of supposed "brothers"...

Scope walls are not between pilots, they are between company's.

You can tell yourself that if it makes you feel better....but the fact remains that it is a union created wall that pits pilot against pilot.

Not everyone acts or feels like as I do on that matter. I have never been a part to treating any pilot any different. But I strongly defend, AS I ALWAYS HAVE, keeping that higher dream alive at the majors. Here is where we differ, even if it didn't include me. Those walls help permit the degradation of the jobs at the majors. Walls that are an unfortunate result of current managerial styles. Walls that unfortunately divide what you once dreamed of and what you have now. As you stated "you defend your job"....I defend what was my dream from the beginning, with or without being included. My principle hasn't changed.

Here is where we differ...It was exactly this thinking that helped to create the problem in the first place. At one time all flying was performed by the airline. Delta, Eastern, United flew small airplanes to small cities. After deregulation, the desire to outsource "small turboprop" flying first popped up. Former ALPA President Randy Babbitt was involved in these negotiations as a member of the Eastern MEC. He is on record as stating that this was a mistake, however he said they didn't want to fly these "little" airplanes...That is where "ego" and aircraft size first started forming the wedge.....Fast forward to the first jets operated by Comair....Mainline still wasn't interested because they were still "small".

This all resulted in a "master/apprentice" relation between the mainline and the regionals...It is the same flying, but half of the domestic flying has now become a "stepping stone" job. This resulted in downward pressure at the regional level in terms of pay and workrules as regionals "compete" for work. Add to this the belief that many regional pilots don't think of this flying as a career, rather as a means to an end....and you have the makings of downward pressure on wages and workrules. This then puts downward pressure on mainline rates and workrules. Nobody benefits....yet we still insist on perpetuating the "apprentice/master" relationship of regional/mainline flying....In the short 15 years I have been in the business, I have seen the gap narrowed between the pay/rules of regionals vs. mainlines....Mainly because of how far the mainline has fallen....partly because of improvements at the regional level....It is no longer a slam dunk decision for a senior regional pilot living in domicile with his choice of schedule and 4 weeks of vacation that become 12 weeks, to up and leave for the bottom of a mainline list in questionable economic times.....Nobody knows if they make the right decision till the hang it up at the end of the ride....

I have long since given up the pipe dream of this ever getting fixed....The horses left the barn a long time ago....

 

[Superpilot92]

Ok, this will be my final post on this thread. Don't let it hurt your feelings, but I'll be "ignoring" you in the future. promise it wont Maybe its because you psychically knew that I "pooped my pants," and am so ashamed. Meanwhile, congrats if you passed the 4,000 hr mark. You had previously posted your experience, so I'm not sure why you want to deny it now.There you go again making stuff up. I never told you nor did i deny my "experience". I probably have somewhere between 4-5000hrs, i dont know cause i stopped doing my logbook after i started with NWA. Either way it doesnt matter because my time just got me the interview. the rest of my qualifications, sim eval, and HR interview is what got me the job.

I fully understand the flow process. Your assertions about why XJ pilots were ignored during hiring are false Ignored? Its not being ingnored when the process of the flow agreement is followed. Same thing happened with CAL and Coex. No One from Coex could get hired outside the flow. In fact when recalls happened and hiring started again at CAL. No one from XJT could get hired until all of the Preferential guys were brought on board. They actually told guys that had "ins" (family) they could get hired at CAL but they would have to quit XJT first . I had to point that out. Just pointing that out also. And my comments were purely tangential, and made because NU wanted to know my opinion about my view of a staple.

History does repeat itself. Back in 2001, I had a scheduled interview at NWA that never happened. But with my roughly 4,000 hrs at the time, I was in line in front of far more deserving people than me. Now, that doesn't mean I should have passed up my chance..but here's why it was wrong. We actually had some proof that NWA was ignoring anyone who was currently flying the AVRO and going to lower time guys (probably to save on training costs). There were plenty of people who had paid their dues way more than I, who had great training records, etc. I wasnt talking about pre-911 hiring practices. There is always someone with more time or who could be considered more qualified but thats not your nor my job to figure out. We arent part of HR and we doont do the hiring. All we can do is work hard and pursue what we want in our careers. Some are luckier than others, some have more connections, and some just are unlucky. I'm sure there are others that are more deserving of your current seat, does that mean you shouldnt except or fly in your position? And as has been stated on other threads, similar practices have been seen at other carriers as well.thats true.

What NWA was doing is a form of discriminatory hiring practice. in the case that i discussed, they arent being discrimitory in hiring from CPZ or Mesaba if they(HR) are following a contractual flow through agreement. It is not dissimilar to not interviewing blacks back in the old days. I think it is fundamentally wrong. But if I were truly bitter, I would go hire a lawyer and sue. If you wish to put a label on my factual comments as whining, go right ahead.I said you were whining because you continue to ignore that there is a process on how the flow through works. If they hire from the list outside of the flow agreement then the flowthrough is pointless to YOUR pilots. The flow is based on seniority and getting hired out of that would mean leapfrogging those senior guys that are waiting to flow up.

I personally don't think I'm entitled to anything. As JC Lawson said, "you don't get what you deserve, you get what you take." And I'm certainly not bitter toward mainline pilots. I have plenty of friends working at lots of majors, including DAL.Good than you'll excuse me for not passing up the opportunity i earned. No one gave me this job, i had no internal recs, and i made many sacrifices to get to where i'm at now. Are there people with more time that didnt get hired? Sure! Are there others that have made sacrifices that havent been hired? Yup! We're all handed a hand in the card game and some just get better hands. I know that i've been fortunate but i also know that i've worked hard also.

Included in that list is MonsterBuck. He applied to Delta when it was still separate. We discussed at length the pluses and minuses about making the jump, vs. waiting for a flow. I'm glad he's at DAL now, and they got a good pilot in the deal. But he had to do it because NWA wouldn't interview him. At the time, I decided against because I it was pre-merger, and I didn't want to take the chance on commuting for life vs. spending more time at home with family.We all had to make decisions and your's are very good reasons also. I myself have a family and it was a risk for us also. We decided the risk vs reward was there and we ran with it. I have a long time left in this career and feel very fortunate to be where i am at this point in my career.

As for your question about my qualifications, I meet the quals for any major. I have passed up opportunities at JBLU and CAL because I didn't want the commute again to each their own, but its all about your own personal sacrifices. If its not worth it to you personally than good for you for not taking it. I commute, its not fun, but that was one of the sacrifices i had to live with. We'll probably move later on and put the commuting to an end but for now we're making the best of it. (and a non-union airline in the case of JBLU). I never applied to cargo airlines because I have done night flying before and will never again.I agree, not for me either. I havent flown freight but i've done enough redeyes to know thats not for me.

I could give lots more detail, but this is rapidly becoming a massive waste of time.

Hopefully you understand that i wasnt trying to bust your balls i was just saying there's a process to the hiring when it comes to the companies with flowthroughs. Again, Good luck with everything and enjoy the family!

 

[Superpilot92]

:beer: :beer: :beer: :beer:

double post!!!

 

[ACL65PILOT]

What I meant was leapfrogging you Buck in a seniority integration. There are some over at DCI that feel they should be senior to you. That is what will not fly.

And yes Joe, I have not changed my tune no matter how hard CRJ567 tries to tell people I had. I hated the outsourcing of mainline jobs when I was at ASA. Personally did not bid up until I had to.