Comparing hiring practices--Who is doing it right?

[AlbieF15]

Clarifying...

No...I wasn't justifying the current hiring formats, just giving my 2 cents on what I think they care about.

And the side gig....I have met tons of pilots with them. Here are some...

Barber shop owner (sport cuts)

Realtors (a million of 'em)

Mortgage brokers (one VERY successful 727 captain I enjoy flying with has a multi-million dollar business)

ALL ATPs-- (yep...that guy...Derrick Dennis, was a FedEx Captain)

Retail Lacrosse store-- (one of our ACPs)

Land developer/home builder--

Lawyers--

City councilman

Car lot owner

Now...ALL of these guys are VERY interesting to fly with as I get to hear their perspective on business, life, and learn a little more about stuff going on away from ILS approaches, company negotiations, etc etc. I think these guys are fascinating to fly with and I enjoy learning about them.

Next question--how many of these guys do you think pick up extra trips? Dip into open time and grab a trip here or there at straight pay? They may do it sometimes, but more than likely they are tackling a problem on their other job during their time off. In the case of some, they will drop trips to go do more lucrative work than fly jets (hard to imagine, isn't it?)

So...you may or may not want to FLY with these guys, but how does a company like JetBlue (where you get 1.5 rate for hours over 70 hours) or SWA (extra trips picked up pay year 2 pay) or FedEX (if we call YOU for a trip its 1.5 x pay rate) view employee productivity? I think the pay scales obviously indicate they'd like us to be available for MORE work if needed. Why? Its cheaper to pay overtime than train and hire more folks, and when there is work to be done they'd like you to step up. That may be hard to do when you're selling mortgages, running the real estate office, or attending a trade show. So...if you want to brag about your real estate prowess in a job interivew, knock yourself out. My free advice is shut your yap and talk about how much you LOVE flying and want to fly the line (or teach, or be an LCA, etc). It's not BS...heck we all LOVE flying, and being an airline pilot is an awesome profession. However, one perk of this career is that if properly managed you may have time to indulge other interests too. I just wouldn't go into an interview advertising those interests...

As for "who is doing it right?"...how about this...

Delta, NWA, AA, Alaska, UAL, Frontier, US Air, Airborne, and AWA are doing it wrong. They are not interviewing or hiring.

Continental, FedEx, UPS, JetBlue, SWA, AirTran, and the regionals are doing it right--they are hiring. If you want the "major" with pax and travel passes, a wide variety of plane types, and a good mix of flying...apply to Continental. You lose the A plan at SWA or JB but you get a growing company, rapid advancement, and enthusiatic employees. Airtran is similiar but boasts a pretty sweet B plan. Both major freight ops are hiring and offer stable long term careers with excellent benefits. Regionals give you a place to work for time or experience if you can't make the others work out for a while.

Just chewin' the fat boys...no intention to flame anyone....

 

[Resume Writer]

Aaron,


I am going to have to disagree with your sentiment about which airline is doing it right based upon whether they are hiring or not. It was not too many years ago that people did not want to fly for Airtran. Continental just started hiring again, as did UPS a few months ago. Even SWA stopped hiring for a period of time and has significantly slowed down in the past few months.

As to the original poster's question, every airline has their method of hiring that they believe works best for them. Every airline has a unique corporate culture and the type of pilots they desire. To be successful at these airlines, you have to understand their culture and how you fit into it. Not everyone is a "SWA Type" employee, just as not everyone was a "Delta Type" when they were hiring.

Having been around this industry for almost two decades, I can say that a lot has changed, but a lot has stayed the same.

As an individual that has been in the employment consulting, resume preparation and interview coaching business for the same length of time, I have watched the interview process change to fit the needs of each company.

A good deal of it depends upon the market, i.e., supply versus demand. When the supply of qualified applicants is high, then a company can put into place more stringent qualifications. If the supply is low, then the quals become lax. Simple economics.

Kathy

 

[DCitrus9]

Gotta disagree with some of ya' here. I think CA Megadeath has it right on here. I've turned down SWA interviews 'cause I wasn't gooing to foot the bill for a type. I also think she's got the best gig going. I am happy, but I feel jealous 'cause I didn't fill out my flight time summary. PS, how's your boytoy doing? As far as AirTran goes, I like their hiring practices. I think the 121 PIC is a good req. Much better than SWA or Jet blues time over 20000lbs or whatever arbitrary number they picked.

 

[FlyBoeingJets]

As for "who is doing it right?"...how about this...

Delta, NWA, AA, Alaska, UAL, Frontier, US Air, Airborne, and AWA are doing it wrong. They are not interviewing or hiring.

Continental, FedEx, UPS, JetBlue, SWA, AirTran, and the regionals are doing it right--they are hiring.

Albie, you may have a point but that's not what I meant. But you knew that, right?

As far as the comment on SWA slowing down, it must be seasonal. I bet any slowdown is only temporary, maybe for people department vacations and such. SWA is putting folks in classes faster than I've seen since 9/11. April interviewees into July classes. I have been told classes WILL run until the end of the year. Classes will likely start again in January. SWA likes to run classes in the first and second quarter and trail off at the end of the year.

 

[FlyBoeingJets]

I think part of the equation is volume. SWA needs a lot of people. They can't rule out those without recommendations.

As was pointed out before, it is also a money issue. FedEx is using their ACP's spare time (read 'free') to do the work of a paid HR employees elsewhere. SWA's HR (people) department also hires F/A's. I'm betting FedEx's HR department is tiny compared to SWA's.

Does it have anything to do with complexity of the equipment? MD-11 is notoriously hard to land. 737 is known as less of a handful. FedEx pilots trade planes numerous times. SWA does not.

Is it true folks are leaving UPS the first year to go to SWA? Why? Anyone leaving the JetBlue experience?

Just comparing the 2 heavy weights. Don't know anything about JetBlue, UPS or Airtran.

 

[Resume Writer]

As far as the comment on SWA slowing down, it must be seasonal. I bet any slowdown is only temporary, maybe for people department vacations and such. SWA is putting folks in classes faster than I've seen since 9/11. April interviewees into July classes. I have been told classes WILL run until the end of the year. Classes will likely start again in January. SWA likes to run classes in the first and second quarter and trail off at the end of the year.

Fly, have you heard the term SYWON (subject to change without notice)? What should be emphasized here is the last thing you heard was classes will run until the end of the year. Look at AWA. They were going really strong, and since the proposed merger with USAirways, they stopped hiring immediately.

I have to ask about the April interviewees being put into July classes. Was that a one time thing? Did they not interview enough people to fill a class? From what I have witnessed with my clients, it has been a six to seven month wait from the "your hired" call to a class date. Did something change?

Kathy

 

[bafanguy]

Albie,


Just yankin' your chain about the "...side gig..." thing ( just couldn't resist ). Pilots have had side gigs for the entire 35 years I was in airline work; these days, you'd BETTER have one. And who would care if someone did because it has nothing to do with one's flying job, nor should anyone think it would.

However, while it doesn't make me an expert, having 35 years of airline work behind me does give me a functional concept of what it takes to do this work over the long haul. And the interview/selection process, AS DESCRIBED BY POSTERS ON THIS FORUM, involves elements that couldn't possibly be valid criteria in deciding if one person is a better choice than another. The fact that there's an oversupply of qualified applicants, allowing for allegedly greater selectivity, doesn't mean the criteria a particular company uses necessarily constitutes "greater selectivity". It just means it's their party so they get to decide what games are played and the selections get ever more arbitrary as quest for "selectivity" gets more fervent. The 800 pound gorilla isn't always right; he's just an 800 pound gorilla.

My biggest objection is this whole "...tell me a story..." stuff. The notion that a person who demonstrates a glib, polished ability to recite his carefully-crafted "...I'm really a swell guy after all..." tale is better than one who isn't so slick just doesn't float. And, his prepared statement indicates nothing about who he really is. In fact, my take is that forcing people into these "story times" actually covers up who they really are, putting them on the defensive by forcing them to hide behind what they think the interviewer wants to hear. As Typhoonpilot said, there's a big difference in telling stories at interview and actually being the appropriate person for the job in the cockpit. Maybe if one is choosing a date for the prom, a raconteur would be a nececcary trait; in flying, it's not.

So, they're hiring for a particular "corporate culture" ? I think the culture idea is vastly overplayed/overrated. Sure, there may be some differences, but the job is still what it is, the airplanes, airports, weather, FAA, consequences of failure, professional obligations, etc. are unchanged from company to company despite what the HR types try to tell us. The earth is NOT flat and no amount of saying it is will make it so. Delta used to have a great "corporate culture" and was THE place to work not all that many years ago. Now look at 'em. How quickly things change, which tells me that the whole notion of "culture" is a house of cards to start with. It's easy to be all giggly about your "culture" when the money's rolling in along with the shiny new airplanes. Show us the "culture" when things hit the fan; that'll show you what it really means/is worth. This is what invalidates the idea of hiring to fit such a notion. "Culture" is the Easter Bunny.

There are valid ways to determine if a person's fit for the job: put them in the sim, give them a written exam, background/qualification checks, LOR's ( I'm not even sure of the validity of this one ), etc. Basing a hiring decision on "...tell us why should we hire YOU ?..." or a storytime, organ-grinder's monkey dance simply doesn't float with what I know to be true about what it actually takes to do the job in question.

I'm just glad I got my last interview in back in '73 before the train derailed, and that I don't need to get one now. You poor guys have my heart-felt sympathy.

 

[canyonblue]

I'm betting FedEx's HR department is tiny compared to SWA's.

Maybe not. Don't forget they also hire all those people who drive the trucks.

 

[joevollers]

People who complain about the good ol' boy network probably do not have the the people skills to have made the connections to get themselves looked at------ or they have made poor career choices putting them in a job where they come in contact with nobody on a regular basis----

One reason to go a Small commuter early in your career--- the connections you make. Networking seems to be a lot tighter at a company like Great Lakes than say AirWis

 

[canyonblue]

I've turned down SWA interviews 'cause I wasn't gooing to foot the bill for a type.

You could always just bid 737 CA at Airtran and then you would not have to pay for it, they would.

 

[canyonblue]

There are valid ways to determine if a person's fit for the job: put them in the sim, give them a written exam, background/qualification checks, LOR's ( I'm not even sure of the validity of this one ), etc. Basing a hiring decision on "...tell us why should we hire YOU ?..." or a storytime, organ-grinder's monkey dance simply doesn't float with what I know to be true about what it actually takes to do the job in question.

Go and rent the movie "Miracle". It is about the 1980 Olympic Hockey Team. In it Coach Brooks gives his team a B/S exam to take, just to see what response he would get. They could not see what taking this exam had to do with being on a hockey team. His plan for the team was he "wasn't looking for the best players, just the right ones".

 

[bafanguy]

His plan for the team was he "wasn't looking for the best players, just the right ones".

Well now, that's the issue, isn't it ?

 

[xtwapilot]

Pilots as usual have allowed the HR departments at the airlines to hijack the entire hiring process. Look at any other profession, lets take an accountant for example, the person hiring that accountant is the head of the accounting department, HR's function is to process the paperwork and thats it. They should not be invovled with the hiring process at all. No other profession has given HR that kind of power but the airlines. As for sim evals in interviews, they proved to be totally unreliable indicators of piloting ability. United in the mid 90's used a sim and found out that they still had a high failure rate in newhire training because people were going out there and flying the profile several times to beat the system. I have only been to one company that does the hiring process as it should be, I won't mention them because I don't want it changed. But the process is as follows, interview with the CP and another management type from flt ops. Once they give you the okay, you are sent to the HR rep to do the paperwork and a drug test. The CP calls you few days later with the thumps up or down.

 

[canyonblue737]

One reason to go a Small commuter early in your career--- the connections you make. Networking seems to be a lot tighter at a company like Great Lakes than say AirWis

hammer hits nail on the head.

 

[canyonblue737]

There are valid ways to determine if a person's fit for the job: put them in the sim, give them a written exam, background/qualification checks, LOR's ( I'm not even sure of the validity of this one ), etc. Basing a hiring decision on "...tell us why should we hire YOU ?..." or a storytime, organ-grinder's monkey dance simply doesn't float with what I know to be true about what it actually takes to do the job in question.

Right now SWA is interviewing pilots who by and large have thousands of hours of PIC turbine, often are check airman, or are highly experienced military aviators and IPs. Unlike a small commuter interviewing inexperienced pilots SWA knows that by and large everyone they interview would pass a sim, pass a written exam etc. Since everyone interviewing has a type or must get a type prior to showing up they also know with great confidence you can fly a 737. In fact from what I have heard in the last several years you could count on one hand the number of folks who washed due to flying skill.

SOOO... that leaves the "are you a good guy/girl who fits with the culture of SWA. are you a jerk?" To find that out they have to go into the storytime and get you to talk like a buddy/friend because if you accept it or not being a part of SWA is much more than pushing the throttles forward and pointing the nose somewhere, something more we think helps keep the company fun, and solvent in the long run. that doesn't mean other companies do it wrong, or don't do it better... but there is a method behind the madness.

 

[WillowRunVortex]

Right now SWA is interviewing pilots who by and large have thousands of hours of PIC turbine, often are check airman, or are highly experienced military aviators and IPs. Unlike a small commuter interviewing inexperienced pilots SWA knows that by and large everyone they interview would pass a sim, pass a written exam etc. Since everyone interviewing has a type or must get a type prior to showing up they also know with great confidence you can fly a 737. In fact from what I have heard in the last several years you could count on one hand the number of folks who washed due to flying skill.

SOOO... that leaves the "are you a good guy/girl who fits with the culture of SWA. are you a jerk?" To find that out they have to go into the storytime and get you to talk like a buddy/friend because if you accept it or not being a part of SWA is much more than pushing the throttles forward and pointing the nose somewhere, something more we think helps keep the company fun, and solvent in the long run. that doesn't mean other companies do it wrong, or don't do it better... but there is a method behind the madness.

Can you successfully taxi fast, land fast, and get gas at the corner gas station in the 737?

 

[LUVChild]

Couple of my thoughts, here. Sorry if this is lengthy, but I think some of you will find some good information in here.

As far as allowing HR to hijack the hiring process:
I think that those who are saying this are unfamiliar with HR and the purpose that it serves. In most cases, HR is there to ensure that laws are followed when it comes to hiring. In other words, they try to make sure that the hiring process is as fair and valid as possible. I don't know how many of you have ever taken place in a hiring board at a major company, but it seems to me that those of you who lament HR taking an active role in the hiring process are jumping to conclusions and talking out of ignorance, rather than true experience.

Southwest looks for people who are team players, who are largely devoid of ego, who take their jobs seriously, while not taking themselves too seriously. This is not a big secret - you'd know it if you read NUTS! SWA just doesn't want the pilot who treats his fellow pilots with respect; SWA wants the pilot who also treats the flight attendants, ramp agents, ops agents, and dispatcher with the same level of respect. If I remember correctly, this is part of what Southwest's HR people look for from their perspective in an interview, in addition to the basic qualifications, etc.

In any hiring process, HR is largely there to make sure that the hiring process is done LEGALLY. And trust me, gentlemen: you want that. While pilots are great at flying planes, let's face it: many of them are sucky businesspeople who wouldn't know an illegal or unethical interview question if it sat on their face and wiggled.

If the pilot group oversaw the hiring at ANY airline, I could almost guarantee you that the "good ol' boy system" that you moan about would get even worse. Every guy would want to be hiring just his buddies to fly at the airline. Interviews would be a nightmare if the flight operations department at any airline were left to oversee them. The very system you complain about is there very system that HR is there to counteract.

And as far as those "storytelling" interviews go, here's a little more education for you:
That type of interview is what's known as a behavioral interview. It happens to be one of the most valid, and thus legally defensible, types of job interviews available. The premise of behavioral interviewing is NOT to tell stories, but rather to provide examples of times when you demonstrated a particular behavior. By way of example: say a company is looking for an employee who is good at handling conflict. They will ask a behavioral interview question that seeks to determine if that employee has handled conflict constructively in the past.

Could the job applicant lie and make up a story? Of course. But here's the point: ANYBODY CAN LIE IN AN INTERVIEW! And let's face it: it's much harder to lie when asked for an example. How would you answer if the interviewer asked you, "So how are you at handling conflict?" versus asking, "Tell me about a time when you had a conflict with a co-worker, and how did you handle it?"

Think about it, and you'll see the benefits of behavioral interviewing.

No interview process is 100% perfect. Behavioral interviewing for pilots alone is not satisfactory, so it is not the only hiring criteria used at SWA (nor at any other airline that I know of). But it can indicate some of the personality traits of a person being hired, and let's be honest, personality and "Southwest fit" are a HUGE issue at Southwest, in addition to the flying skills. SWA's people are what has made them so successful. But while you can probably be trained to fly like Southwest wants you to fly, chances are, your personality is pretty much set in stone. There's no changing who you are. Which is why Southwest does those behavioral interviews. They want to weed out those slugs who suck the lifeblood out of you every time you fly with them.

As I said, no interview process is 100% perfect. As somebody pointed out, sometimes the creeps slip through, and sometimes the good guys get left out. People are messy creatures (duh), and job interviewing is all about people, so it's inherently imperfect no matter what type of interview it is.

Just my contribution to the discussion.

 

[Remington]

Good post.
Question....does an interviewee who stinks at telling stories but is the 'Southwest type' still get hired using the behavioral interview???

 

[LUVChild]

Remington, check your PMs.

I personally think I suck at telling stories. But hey, they hired me because I could provide specific examples of the qualities I think they wanted. So I guess I must have passed the behavioral portion of the interview, huh?

Resume Writer could also provide you a lot of information on this topic. I think she worked for SWA at one time (?), and she knows a lot about HR and hiring practices in general.

 

[burnsst]

Blzr,

That is not true. I know 3 guys turned down by SWA and hired by AirTran!

 

[capt. megadeth]

Just because one doesn't get hired doesnt mean he/she won't be hired the second or third time around.

It's not like anyone's holding a gun to another's head telling them to get a type.

That's exactly my point.

The company wants a person to fit their culture......fine.

Then they don't hire you because obviously they don't think you are a good fit.....fine.

How is it that a year later you all of a sudden are? This is what pi$$es me off.

If the company wants to require a type rating as a condition of employment, that's fine too. But I think it is lame that you basically won't be called for an interview without one, so you get one and then they turn you down anyways........lame. I think that SWA HR has gotten a little full of themselves since they all of a sudden have all these pilots wanting to work there and I find that to be a turnoff. You all can get all pi$$y with me if you want, but I am entitled to my opinion.

 

[NEDude]

Of course this topic is totally subjective. Who really cares if we think the hiring process is right or wrong. It is management who really counts. If an airline has kep the same application/interview/hiring policy for a long period of time, then obviously those who count feel they have it right. However if a company is constantly changing it process, then clearly those in charge don't feel they have it right.

So IMHO, look at who has changed or modified their practices recently to see what their own people think.

 

[typhoonpilot]

Right now SWA is interviewing pilots who by and large have thousands of hours of PIC turbine, often are check airman, or are highly experienced military aviators and IPs. Unlike a small commuter interviewing inexperienced pilots SWA knows that by and large everyone they interview would pass a sim, pass a written exam etc. Since everyone interviewing has a type or must get a type prior to showing up they also know with great confidence you can fly a 737. In fact from what I have heard in the last several years you could count on one hand the number of folks who washed due to flying skill.

SOOO... that leaves the "are you a good guy/girl who fits with the culture of SWA. are you a jerk?" To find that out they have to go into the storytime and get you to talk like a buddy/friend because if you accept it or not being a part of SWA is much more than pushing the throttles forward and pointing the nose somewhere, something more we think helps keep the company fun, and solvent in the long run. that doesn't mean other companies do it wrong, or don't do it better... but there is a method behind the madness.

Canyon, you said this in response to Bafanguy's post. Did you know that he was one of the early SWA employees ? Since it was that early group of employees who contributed to the foundation of SWA and it's culture they must have been doing something right in the hiring process. Let's ask Bafanguy what it was like.

Baf, care to chime in ?


TP

 

[FlyBoeingJets]

I think that SWA HR has gotten a little full of themselves since they all of a sudden have all these pilots wanting to work there and I find that to be a turnoff. You all can get all pi$$y with me if you want, but I am entitled to my opinion.

Not trying to be pissy...

The type was required for interview long before 9/11. It was a requirement when many would rather have worked for UAL, NWA or AA. It was changed in the late 90's when the pilot labor market had its bubble. Southwest promised all qualified applicants an interview but stated typed folks would get interviews sooner. Now the type is just 'preferred'. And the promise to interview all qualified applicants is gone.

Not sure about the background on the type requirement. Long ago I used to think 737 time to back up the type was important. I learned later that 737 time is not really a player, just the type.

 

[canyonblue]

Did you know that he was one of the early SWA employees ?
TP

So he says. Did you know that I invented the Internet!

 

[typhoonpilot]

So he says. Did you know that I invented the Internet!

Pleased to meet you Mr. Vice-President. I didn't know that you took up flying now that you are out of public service.

TP

 

[bafanguy]

Let's ask Bafanguy what it was like.

Baf, care to chime in ?


TP

TP,

I think this "discussion" has deteriorated to a point where the arrogance of youth is ruling the roost. Nothing I can say would be of any value.

For Mr. "canyonblue",

I was hired by Don Ogden in the office of my former boss at a failing airline after about 20 minutes of one professional aviator shooting the breeze with another professional aviator. We each knew where the other was coming from, what we were discussing, and what it meant for each of us. It ended with a handshake and a May, 1971 classdate at UAL ( Don picked up the tab, as it should be ).

Shortly after, Pratt, Salazar, Cabeza, Benjamin, Tietjen, Hoyt, Hampton, Matter, Deakins, Everett, Steele, and Burk ( all from the same unfortunate company ) were given the same dignified, professional courtesy by a very fine gentleman who had some serious history behind his name and whose judgement could be trusted ( maybe someday you can make the same claim; today, however, is apparently not that day ).

From other sources came Welch, Van Oversheld, Cohen, Patterson, and others, fine gentlemen to a man. Your now #1 guy, Sprague, came along ( after a stint as an appliance salesman at Sears ) from the same non-sked as I was leaving SWA in early '73. I helped him find his first apartment in DAL. He's an absolutely first-class guy, and always was.

I have followed the history of SWA with a very personal interest and rooted for you every step in the process. I cut my teeth in aviation with these guys and they are my heros. I am proud of them and am glad to see them hang in there and reap the rewards they earned. You, my friend, walk on their shoulders. Not the shoulders of some batch of paper shufflers who expect you to show up with a certified copy of your parent's marriage license to prove you're not a bastard, and then tell them your best "...there I was, when all of a sudden..." story. Real aviators don't need this monkey motion to size up one another; they just know because, when you're the guy they want, it's obvious even without your parent's certified marriage license.

As evidenced from your posts, you have a lot to learn. Get humble, Junior, because the taller that high horse you're riding, the longer and more painful your inevitable fall to the ground will be. And, in today's airline biz, you can NEVER rule that out.

And, no, I did not invent the internet.

 

[FlyBoeingJets]

Bafanguy,

Thanks for your thoughts and insight. I read with great interest.

 

[canyonblue737]

If the company wants to require a type rating as a condition of employment, that's fine too. But I think it is lame that you basically won't be called for an interview without one, so you get one and then they turn you down anyways........lame. I think that SWA HR has gotten a little full of themselves since they all of a sudden have all these pilots wanting to work there and I find that to be a turnoff. You all can get all pi$$y with me if you want, but I am entitled to my opinion.

If we can agree all airlines, to varying degree make mistakes in there hiring, then at least SWA is willing to reinterview you in the hopes that perhaps either you have changed your approach or perhaps a different set of interviewers will see it differently. No matter how you shake it, I think it is a better deal than like some majors who once they shut you down you have zero chance of ever getting another shot.

 

[canyonblue]

As evidenced from your posts, you have a lot to learn. Get humble, Junior, because the taller that high horse you're riding, the longer and more painful your inevitable fall to the ground will be. And, in today's airline biz, you can NEVER rule that out.

Last time I checked I was entitled to my own opinion whether popular or not. Had you stayed at Southwest, you would be a Millionaire today. We have never furloughed, so your decision to leave might have been your disparagement for Southwest. I was at Bob Pratt's retirement party, and he was a great guy, not just for his character, but for the fact that he stuck with this airline. We have had guys leave in every decade since our inception, always thinking that the grass is always greener. For those that have left I have no love lost, the place is obviously better without them. I never rule anything out but with all due respect Sir, the next 20 years in this industry wont be anything like the last 20, and I have to live it.