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Comparing hiring practices--Who is doing it right?

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Clarifying...

No...I wasn't justifying the current hiring formats, just giving my 2 cents on what I think they care about.

And the side gig....I have met tons of pilots with them. Here are some...

Barber shop owner (sport cuts)

Realtors (a million of 'em)

Mortgage brokers (one VERY successful 727 captain I enjoy flying with has a multi-million dollar business)

ALL ATPs-- (yep...that guy...Derrick Dennis, was a FedEx Captain)

Retail Lacrosse store-- (one of our ACPs)

Land developer/home builder--

Lawyers--

City councilman

Car lot owner

Now...ALL of these guys are VERY interesting to fly with as I get to hear their perspective on business, life, and learn a little more about stuff going on away from ILS approaches, company negotiations, etc etc. I think these guys are fascinating to fly with and I enjoy learning about them.

Next question--how many of these guys do you think pick up extra trips? Dip into open time and grab a trip here or there at straight pay? They may do it sometimes, but more than likely they are tackling a problem on their other job during their time off. In the case of some, they will drop trips to go do more lucrative work than fly jets (hard to imagine, isn't it?)

So...you may or may not want to FLY with these guys, but how does a company like JetBlue (where you get 1.5 rate for hours over 70 hours) or SWA (extra trips picked up pay year 2 pay) or FedEX (if we call YOU for a trip its 1.5 x pay rate) view employee productivity? I think the pay scales obviously indicate they'd like us to be available for MORE work if needed. Why? Its cheaper to pay overtime than train and hire more folks, and when there is work to be done they'd like you to step up. That may be hard to do when you're selling mortgages, running the real estate office, or attending a trade show. So...if you want to brag about your real estate prowess in a job interivew, knock yourself out. My free advice is shut your yap and talk about how much you LOVE flying and want to fly the line (or teach, or be an LCA, etc). It's not BS...heck we all LOVE flying, and being an airline pilot is an awesome profession. However, one perk of this career is that if properly managed you may have time to indulge other interests too. I just wouldn't go into an interview advertising those interests...

As for "who is doing it right?"...how about this...

Delta, NWA, AA, Alaska, UAL, Frontier, US Air, Airborne, and AWA are doing it wrong. They are not interviewing or hiring.

Continental, FedEx, UPS, JetBlue, SWA, AirTran, and the regionals are doing it right--they are hiring. If you want the "major" with pax and travel passes, a wide variety of plane types, and a good mix of flying...apply to Continental. You lose the A plan at SWA or JB but you get a growing company, rapid advancement, and enthusiatic employees. Airtran is similiar but boasts a pretty sweet B plan. Both major freight ops are hiring and offer stable long term careers with excellent benefits. Regionals give you a place to work for time or experience if you can't make the others work out for a while.

Just chewin' the fat boys...no intention to flame anyone....
 
Aaron,


I am going to have to disagree with your sentiment about which airline is doing it right based upon whether they are hiring or not. It was not too many years ago that people did not want to fly for Airtran. Continental just started hiring again, as did UPS a few months ago. Even SWA stopped hiring for a period of time and has significantly slowed down in the past few months.

As to the original poster's question, every airline has their method of hiring that they believe works best for them. Every airline has a unique corporate culture and the type of pilots they desire. To be successful at these airlines, you have to understand their culture and how you fit into it. Not everyone is a "SWA Type" employee, just as not everyone was a "Delta Type" when they were hiring.

Having been around this industry for almost two decades, I can say that a lot has changed, but a lot has stayed the same.

As an individual that has been in the employment consulting, resume preparation and interview coaching business for the same length of time, I have watched the interview process change to fit the needs of each company.

A good deal of it depends upon the market, i.e., supply versus demand. When the supply of qualified applicants is high, then a company can put into place more stringent qualifications. If the supply is low, then the quals become lax. Simple economics.

Kathy
 
Gotta disagree with some of ya' here. I think CA Megadeath has it right on here. I've turned down SWA interviews 'cause I wasn't gooing to foot the bill for a type. I also think she's got the best gig going. I am happy, but I feel jealous 'cause I didn't fill out my flight time summary. PS, how's your boytoy doing? As far as AirTran goes, I like their hiring practices. I think the 121 PIC is a good req. Much better than SWA or Jet blues time over 20000lbs or whatever arbitrary number they picked.
 
AlbieF15 said:
As for "who is doing it right?"...how about this...

Delta, NWA, AA, Alaska, UAL, Frontier, US Air, Airborne, and AWA are doing it wrong. They are not interviewing or hiring.

Continental, FedEx, UPS, JetBlue, SWA, AirTran, and the regionals are doing it right--they are hiring.


Albie, you may have a point but that's not what I meant. But you knew that, right?

As far as the comment on SWA slowing down, it must be seasonal. I bet any slowdown is only temporary, maybe for people department vacations and such. SWA is putting folks in classes faster than I've seen since 9/11. April interviewees into July classes. I have been told classes WILL run until the end of the year. Classes will likely start again in January. SWA likes to run classes in the first and second quarter and trail off at the end of the year.
 
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I think part of the equation is volume. SWA needs a lot of people. They can't rule out those without recommendations.

As was pointed out before, it is also a money issue. FedEx is using their ACP's spare time (read 'free') to do the work of a paid HR employees elsewhere. SWA's HR (people) department also hires F/A's. I'm betting FedEx's HR department is tiny compared to SWA's.

Does it have anything to do with complexity of the equipment? MD-11 is notoriously hard to land. 737 is known as less of a handful. FedEx pilots trade planes numerous times. SWA does not.

Is it true folks are leaving UPS the first year to go to SWA? Why? Anyone leaving the JetBlue experience?

Just comparing the 2 heavy weights. Don't know anything about JetBlue, UPS or Airtran.
 
FlyBoeingJets said:
As far as the comment on SWA slowing down, it must be seasonal. I bet any slowdown is only temporary, maybe for people department vacations and such. SWA is putting folks in classes faster than I've seen since 9/11. April interviewees into July classes. I have been told classes WILL run until the end of the year. Classes will likely start again in January. SWA likes to run classes in the first and second quarter and trail off at the end of the year.

Fly, have you heard the term SYWON (subject to change without notice)? :) What should be emphasized here is the last thing you heard was classes will run until the end of the year. Look at AWA. They were going really strong, and since the proposed merger with USAirways, they stopped hiring immediately.

I have to ask about the April interviewees being put into July classes. Was that a one time thing? Did they not interview enough people to fill a class? From what I have witnessed with my clients, it has been a six to seven month wait from the "your hired" call to a class date. Did something change?

Kathy
 
Albie,


Just yankin' your chain about the "...side gig..." thing ( just couldn't resist ). Pilots have had side gigs for the entire 35 years I was in airline work; these days, you'd BETTER have one. And who would care if someone did because it has nothing to do with one's flying job, nor should anyone think it would.

However, while it doesn't make me an expert, having 35 years of airline work behind me does give me a functional concept of what it takes to do this work over the long haul. And the interview/selection process, AS DESCRIBED BY POSTERS ON THIS FORUM, involves elements that couldn't possibly be valid criteria in deciding if one person is a better choice than another. The fact that there's an oversupply of qualified applicants, allowing for allegedly greater selectivity, doesn't mean the criteria a particular company uses necessarily constitutes "greater selectivity". It just means it's their party so they get to decide what games are played and the selections get ever more arbitrary as quest for "selectivity" gets more fervent. The 800 pound gorilla isn't always right; he's just an 800 pound gorilla.

My biggest objection is this whole "...tell me a story..." stuff. The notion that a person who demonstrates a glib, polished ability to recite his carefully-crafted "...I'm really a swell guy after all..." tale is better than one who isn't so slick just doesn't float. And, his prepared statement indicates nothing about who he really is. In fact, my take is that forcing people into these "story times" actually covers up who they really are, putting them on the defensive by forcing them to hide behind what they think the interviewer wants to hear. As Typhoonpilot said, there's a big difference in telling stories at interview and actually being the appropriate person for the job in the cockpit. Maybe if one is choosing a date for the prom, a raconteur would be a nececcary trait; in flying, it's not.

So, they're hiring for a particular "corporate culture" ? I think the culture idea is vastly overplayed/overrated. Sure, there may be some differences, but the job is still what it is, the airplanes, airports, weather, FAA, consequences of failure, professional obligations, etc. are unchanged from company to company despite what the HR types try to tell us. The earth is NOT flat and no amount of saying it is will make it so. Delta used to have a great "corporate culture" and was THE place to work not all that many years ago. Now look at 'em. How quickly things change, which tells me that the whole notion of "culture" is a house of cards to start with. It's easy to be all giggly about your "culture" when the money's rolling in along with the shiny new airplanes. Show us the "culture" when things hit the fan; that'll show you what it really means/is worth. This is what invalidates the idea of hiring to fit such a notion. "Culture" is the Easter Bunny.

There are valid ways to determine if a person's fit for the job: put them in the sim, give them a written exam, background/qualification checks, LOR's ( I'm not even sure of the validity of this one ), etc. Basing a hiring decision on "...tell us why should we hire YOU ?..." or a storytime, organ-grinder's monkey dance simply doesn't float with what I know to be true about what it actually takes to do the job in question.

I'm just glad I got my last interview in back in '73 before the train derailed, and that I don't need to get one now. You poor guys have my heart-felt sympathy.
 
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FlyBoeingJets said:
I'm betting FedEx's HR department is tiny compared to SWA's.

Maybe not. Don't forget they also hire all those people who drive the trucks.
 
People who complain about the good ol' boy network probably do not have the the people skills to have made the connections to get themselves looked at------ or they have made poor career choices putting them in a job where they come in contact with nobody on a regular basis----

One reason to go a Small commuter early in your career--- the connections you make. Networking seems to be a lot tighter at a company like Great Lakes than say AirWis
 
DCitrus9 said:
I've turned down SWA interviews 'cause I wasn't gooing to foot the bill for a type.

You could always just bid 737 CA at Airtran and then you would not have to pay for it, they would.
 

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