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Company "Procedures"

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minitour

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 17, 2004
Posts
3,249
This came up today at school.

We'll use a 737 as an example since it seems to be quite the work horse out there.

It makes sense to me that a 737(whatever series...say 400) will fly like any other 737-400. So why is it that differing companies have different procedures on the airplanes? Shouldn't the training be the same on all of them or am I missing something else?

-mini
 
Well, from an operating stand point they do run them the same. The manufacturer (Boing in the example) has developed the FOM and checklist, systems procedures, etc.

Now, how you incorporate this, and implement it into your CRM is something that companies differ on. All roads lead to the same end, and in this case each try to be safer, more efficient etc.

Mark
 
vetteracer said:
...Now, how you incorporate this, and implement it into your CRM is something that companies differ on. All roads lead to the same end, and in this case each try to be safer, more efficient etc.

Mark

So it's more of a "anything you can do, I can do better" kinda thing?

-mini

*edit*
...the CRM stuff, not how the airplanes work...
 
Not all Boeing's are built the same. You can have your 100 Million dollar aircraft built any way you want (as long as it keeps to the type data certificte). This is true of many other manufactures. For the same aircraft there are different builders of aircraft engines, apu's, air cycle machine, etc. Some work very differently than others. The same procedures, limitations, and practices do not always apply. You can also have the aircraft mod'ed in many ways. if you want your 737 to fly around the world non stop, you can have aux fuel tanks in the cargo bins and not carry any belly cargo. On some aircraft the "on" switch position is foreward and others it is aft. It depends on who is showing up with the cash.

Plus each company has its own way of doing business and each airline thinks theirs is the best. It is a complex system.

JAFI
 
Procedures v. procedures

minitour said:
Shouldn't the training be the same on all of them or am I missing something else?
Everyone has different ideas. I flew Seminoles in three different schools, two of which were 141. ERAU had its own set of procedures and checklists for its Seminoles. FSI used the exact, same airplane and had its procedures. Then, in my last aviation job, I was teaching in a Seminole under Part 61. Our "school" had its procedures, which were different, still.

Then, I knew a fellow who was an Electra flight engineer for two different freight companies. He told us stories about the aircraft were identical, but how each company retracted flaps at different points in the takeoff profile. Then, some companies might operate outwardly identical aircraft, but configure them slightly differently.

What makes it tough, sometimes, is you learn a set of procedures for an airplane at one company. Then you go to work for another company that flies the exact, same aircraft. You encounter its procedures and, in the back of your mind, you're thinking how wrong its procedures are! When the truth is it's six of one, half a dozen of another. Go figure.
 
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It is a cultural thing; companies try to blend fleet procedures. Like at USA Jet we have modified the ADM DA-20 procedures to procedures more with more in common with the DC-9 to make movement from the DA-20 to the DC-9 easier for the pilots.
 
Minitour,

Your observation about the different procedures is quite accurate. There are many reasons why this happens but I think they can be narrowed (basically) to three concepts.

1. As JAFI pointed out, there are a wide variety of "options" available in transport category aircraft that you don't usually encounter is small aircraft. They are too numerous to list, but may include such things as different cockpit layout (based on the buyer's choices), different fuel tanks, capacities, locations, different flap positions, different weight limits, completely different avionics packages, different cabin options (emergency lighting, equipment, etc.) and so on. These items can result in the need for different "procedures".

2. Factory provided "checklists" are written by lawyers, with input from pilots/engineers (not the other way around). More often than not, the "procedures" they contain are designed to protect the manufacturer from liability, rather than provide for efficient and practical safe operation of the equipment. If they were followed in the "way they come", everyday operations in the real world would come to a screeching hault. They are often extremely redundant, have no logical "flow patterns" and would cause more problems than they fix.

Mature airlines have people who review these procedures and rewirite them so that they work in the real world. The modified procedures that result do NOT omit anything that is essential for safety, but they do throw out the impractical junk, and organize the material into more useable and practical sequences. A Before Takeoff checklist that takes 20 minutes to complete would literally shutdown the "system".

Since this (rewrite) is done by different people at different airlines, they don't always come out "the same". However, they all "get the job done" and they are all ultimately "approved" by the Federal authority. Sometimes extra or different items are "included" or "added" based solely on the whims of a particular POI (prinicipal operations inspector) from the FAA. Some airlines fight these POI's when they disagree with them. Other airlines just don't make waves. End result = different procedures.

Immature airlines are usually "afraid" of the POI (FAA) or don't have the inhouse expertise to develop their own procedures. So they just go along with whatever junk comes from the manufacturer's lawyers (just like Private pilots and part(s) 91 and 135 operators).

In most cases you will find many variants in the "normal" procedures, but NOT in the emergency procedures. Most airlines, particularly the smaller ones, are reluctant to take on the expense of changing emergency procedures and getting them approved. Remember, the airlines have "lawyers" too and usually they are more interested in protecting their carrier from liability than changing a not so good procedure to a very good procedure. As a result, some Emergency Check Lists found in QRH booklets that "come with the airplane" are literally an "accident looking for a place to happen", but remain unchanged. They often increase workload at the most critical of times and require back-and-forth cross reference to different sections of the QRH, or are [shall we say] less than clear.

One area of particular concern is "memory items". When emergency checklists are modified this is usually where you'll see the greatest differences. This is a matter of "philosophy". Some people think it's great if you can "memorize" everything. Others (like me) think that "memory items" should be reduced to the bare minimum. Arguably, memory is the weakest link in the system. The more you have to do from "memory", the greater you chance of forgetting (making a mistake). Example: Some engine fire checklists might include 10 memory items (or more). Others will include ONE memory item --- turn off the [dam_n] bell.

In most cases, only the big airlines with their own "engineering" departments and much expertise among program managers for the aircraft type will "take on" the powers that be and get a bad emergency checklist changed to a good one.

The "net result" of all this is different procedures, in different companies for the same aircraft model.

3. Finally there's the ego element that you touched on, i.e., "I know more than you and we can do it better". While this may sound "far out" when you first look at it, there are some cases where it is true, i.e., some folks DO "know better"; particularly when "experience" with the type is the cause of changes made over time.

A company with 10 737's (your model choice) is not usually going to be changing much and sticking its neck out. On the other hand it could be argued that nobody anywhere, including at Boeing, knows more about how to operate a 737 than SWA. With such a large fleet of the same basic type, including most of the many variants, they have a level of "expertise" that is difficult to match. Because of this, they may very well have "procedures" in the cockpit, it maintenance, etc., that are substantially different from other operators.

In similar fashion, a 747 operated by say NWA or UAL is not likely to be "run" in the same way that a 747 opreated by say Atlas might be run.

In any case these "differences" boil down to a matter of opinion and are often more subjective than objective.

When one is forced to change airlines or does so voluntarily, we need to recognize that the new company pays you to fly their airplane, their way. The best thing you can do as a pilot is to leave the "we did it this way at XXX" behind you and learn how to do it whatever way your new employer requires. Unless it's a glaring issue involving the safety of flight, you'll be way ahead of the game if you just do it "their way".

One last thought: Be careful not to confuse "technique" with "procedure". These are two different animals. There can be W_I_D_E differences in technique and that's OK. The differences in "procedures" are usually small by comparison. Technique can be changed by the pilot. Procedures must be followed.

Someone said: There are 3 ways to fly (do everything) every airplane: your way, my way, and the right way. The first two are a matter of opinion and yours is just as good as mine. The third (if known) is the one to follow. Why? Because ....... Failure is NOT an option.
 
Surplus, You covered the topic very well. If I might add, that IMHO aircraft builders spend more time concerned with what colors to paint the aircraft than building checklists and procedures. A good Checklists does not sell aircraft but good paint colors can. You also have to remember that aircraft are sold world wide to companies where English is a second or tenth language. So they have to keep the check lists simple. Or the companies/contries that hire because of family connection/status not pilot knowledge and ability. More evident overseas.

I think the best advice we can give the "less gray" aviators is that the aviation system is very, very, complex. The more you learn, the less you know. I think some one famous said that, But I can't remember who.

JAFI
 
Surplus1 is right on target in his comments regarding the different procedures that various operators may adopt for there particular operation. I would add just one comment and that is when an operator buys a new Boeing jet, regardless of what model, he will get the opportunity to sit down with the Boeing Flight Operations personnel and modify the existing boiler plate manual that Boeing has in turn developed for that particular model aircraft. This will then become a part of the Boeing Plan 2 manual. Boeing will print it, distribute it and revise it twice annually. If by chance you have special request for a procedural modification, i.e., not manually deploying the speedbrakes during a rejected takeoff and letting the automation do the deployment for you, then Boeing will issue a No Technical Objection letter regarding your modification to the boiler plate Boeing procedure. I beleive that the above example has been recinded, so it might not be the perfect example to cite. At any rate when you operate with this Boeing Plan 2 manual, you are considered "golden" in the eyes of both Boeing and the FAA.


Having said that, if you are an operator of a Boeing aircraft and you did not buy it from Boeing to begin with, then you can still work under the umbrella of Plan 2, but it's going to cost you dearly. Still provides a certain amount of underlying comfort knowing that the manufacture of the aircraft has looked at your procedures and signed of on them as being sound.
 
JAFI,

Point well made. In the arena of foreign languages one comment. It is not necessarily a need for more simplicity, for qualified pilots are really just as "competent" in all countries. While the "official language" of international aviation is English, it is simply unrealistic to think that a Russian pilot is going to communicate with another Russian in English. It just ain't gonna happen. The same applies to other languages, I just picked Russian at random.

Spooky 1,

I agree with all that you said. In addition to Boeing, other major airframe manufacturers have similar programs. They all work well.

One interesting "aside" is performance data. Most T-category aircraft made in the US come with data for elevations up to 8,000 feet. Quite simply, that is because the US doesn't have any airports above that level where large aircraft go. Same applies to max air temp limits. The data is available, but you just don't get it for free. If you want high altitude and very high temp data, you have to pay for it, extra. This is a good source of revenue.

The military, as an example, routinely buys data that is different from the standard "commercial" data normally provided for free. Likewise, if you want to operate out of La Paz, you'll have to buy the data.

Some years ago there were exceptionally high temperature out west (I think Phoenix) that grounded most airliners, because they had no data for those temps. Meanwhile, SWA, which had already purchased the data, had no problems at all.

Our business if far more complex than normally meets the eye.
 
Agreed. Another example of buying what you need to operate in the theater of choice would CAL's B757's. Most if not all B757's are restricted to a 10 kt tailwind component. Apparently CAL operates into a couple of Latin American airports that the primary runway(s) historically have tail winds during the hours that CAL operates. No problem, just buy the engineering data for a 15kt tailwind component and all is well. Boeing, and I assume most of the other major airframe manufactures know all to well how to extract that extra dollar out of the operators of their equipment.

Back to the Ops Manuals. For many years the various airlines were pretty good at writing there own manuals albeit with significant imput from the original Boeing manuals. Recently there has been a trend away from that and many of the airlines have gone back to the Boeing Plan 2 methodology for no other reason than simply to avoid the liability that is present when you start reinventing the wheel.
 

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