Commuter Hiring?

[HA25]

BTW

Pilot of other major airlines (as well as non-majors) could learn a few things about "attitude" from the SW pilots. Just because management doesn't make you do something to help, that doesn't mean that you can't do it on your own. I believe that most pilots do their best for their company, but I know of many that just want the clock to start on their next leg and couldn't care less about how efficiently they get there, (gate hold for wx vs. running engines - guess which makes you more money?) as long as they are out of the blocks. I saw this while in the JS on a UAL two years ago.

 

[Caveman]

V7OT5 wrote"

"...but I know of many that just want the clock to start on their next leg and couldn't care less about how efficiently they get there, (gate hold for wx vs. running engines - guess which makes you more money?) as long as they are out of the blocks. I saw this while in the JS on a UAL two years ago."

One incident two years ago hardly qualifies as 'many'.

 

[HA25]

That was just one example, I have seen it many times while working at a small "commuter" airline, and in discussions with many pilots I know, one can tell that they are not the least bit concerned with the company's financial health....which is a bad attitude, that's all I'm saying. SWA pilots tend to go the extra mile a bit more often.....that said, they do need a better pay and work rules environment to be on par with UAL/AMR/NWA/DAL and others that they directly compete with.

 

[Dieterly]

SWA pilots tend to go the extra mile a bit more often

No $hit, majority of them even go and buy their own type rating!!

 

[HA25]

That's PFT and I don't agree with it, and as I said, over all the SWA pilots need to bring their standards of labor up to closer match the others, before we all go down to theirs (which aren't bad for a small airline, but they are not a small airline anymore). They do have a good attitude about their company however, and that's all I'm saying.

 

[Freight Dog]

Not gonna turn this into a PFT debate, but an airline requiring an applicant to have certain experience (ATP, B737 type) is NOT considered PFT. You could have been in the military and flown T-43 which is B737 and you would have gotten typed by the military for your civilian certificate. Would you have to pay anything at SWA? Nope. You could have been a Vanguard captain, and the place just shut down... now you are applying at SWA and you have ATP and B737 type. Do you have to pay anything? Nope...

It ain't PFT..

 

[HA25]

All that may be true, but no "major" airline requires a type in anything, and no major airline makes you pay a dime except SWA....That's just the facts.

 

[Freight Dog]

Re-read my post. SWA doesn't require you to pay a dime either.
You just have to have a B737 type rating in order to get invited to class. What's the problem with that? They don't care whether you got it by being a captain at Vanguard or somewhere else, if you flew T-43's in the military, or you bought it. The bottom line, you gotta have it. That's a far cry from $10,000 for a privilege like say ASA did awhile back regardless whether you had ATR or E120 type ratings, you still had to pay the money...

Same thing with ATP... almost all airlines require it these days. You can pay for it, or you can have your employer pay for it. My airline paid for mine when I upgraded. I could have gone and paid for it on my own, but would it have been PFT? Hardly....


Apples and oranges....

 

[HA25]

Ok, you win SWA doesn't require me to pay a dime for a job.

 

[RightBettor]

Couple of thoughts...

Okay my 2 cents (or here is why it is not PFT):

The requirement to possess a B737 type rating has always been a requirement for SWA. It's not like the early 90's when regional carriers were taking advantage of the hard times and requiring people to pay $10,000 for a second-in-command training program on a Brasilia. SWA isn't exploiting the difficult times by saying, "Well, since times are tough these days for prospective pilots, let's stick it to them by requiring them to pay for the company's new hire class." Instead, they require the type in good and bad times.

It has also been argued that you can get your type rating anywhere you want. This is the key element. You are NOT paying SWA for your type rating. Instead, JetTech, Higher Power, K & S, etc will receive money from the pilot, and in return, will train said pilot for a B-737 type rating. SWA doesn't profit from someone getting a type rating. Now don't try to make the argument that SWA does profit because they save on training costs. When you show up in Dallas, you still have to complete the new hire training class, and the syllabus has to be approved by the feds... just like every other airline. And guess what: SWA pays for that and pays the pilot while said pilot is in class. It's not like you show up, do a week of basic indoc. and they say, "Okay, well since you went out and paid for a type rating you can go to work now. There's an airplane over there. Get to it."

Another argument that has been posed is the idea that the type rating is much like any other educational requirement. Want to go to work for a law firm? Guess what: gotta pay for training... you have to get a Juris Doctor degree... and they don't come cheap (time, effort, or money). Don't flame me with, "Yeah, but lawyers make so much more money!" B.S.!! There are plenty of attorneys out there working there butts off for <$100,000 a year. How much do you think a public defender or assistant DA makes? Want to go to work as a doctor? Well, gotta pay for training!! Yep, you'll need an M.D. While we're on the subject of education, I paid for all my aircraft ratings with the exception of the EMB-120 type rating. A former employer was the bearer of that expense when I went through upgrade training. I did pay for all other certificates and ratings in order to meet requirements for various jobs I wanted to obtain. I paid for my private, instrument, commercial, multi, CFI, CFII, CFI-ME, and initial ATP. I also paid for a 4-year degree in order to enhance my prospects. Gee, I guess I paid for training. Now I have NEVER gone to a regional airline and paid that regional airline $10,000 for a right seat check out in a Brasilia, but I have paid Jet-Tech for a 737 type rating in order to meet a requirement for a job I want to obtain. I have yet to write a check to SWA for anything!!

One may argue that other majors don't require type ratings on anything as a condition of employment. True. However, other major airlines don't operate only one type. Why would UAL require you to get a type rating on an A-320 when you may very well not be able to bid the A-320 in new-hire class. When I went to UAL I couldn't get the A-320 because there were only four offered to our class and I was number 12 on the class list. When I go to SWA, I certainly won't have to bid equipment... make sense?

You may not like the fact that SWA requires a type rating, or they pay less, or they fly too many legs. Fine, don't apply there. And please drop this argument about, "SWA is bringing us down man!! They should make more money or we're all going to get brought down with them." Bear in mind that the current contract was negotiated almost 10 years ago. Seems other carriers were paying their pilots less when other contracts were negotiated back around 1994. Remember the UAL contract and ESOP? Were not UAL pilots getting paid less back then? It wasn't until Fall of 2000 when they got the big pay raise. I believe the pilots at SWA will see more money in the future... you don't get what you deserve, you get what you negotiate.

Finally, you can flame me if you want. But consider this: I interviewed at SWA a few days before going to work for UAL. This was long before September 11, 2001. I went to the interview in Dallas because I wanted to work for SWA. Remember, UAL had a looming merger on the horizon at the time, and I didn't feel like sitting on the bottom of a 10,000-pilot seniority list while an additional 6,000 pilots got integrated above me. So SWA hired me and I got my type rating in the fall of 2001 (I waited until the fall because the wife and I were having our first baby in the summer and I'd already taken time off from UAL for that.) Well, we all know what happened last fall. I am fortunate enough to have a job offer with SWA, but I can promise you being furloughed $ucks. I have a family to provide for, and I don't ever want to put my family through this again. So before anyone makes any smarta$$ comments, try walking a mile in the shoes of a furloughee.

And that's all I have to say 'bout that.

Regards,
RightBettor