Comair's New Crew Bases

[Rabble]

70 +70+ 30 = 170 crews in total = 340 pilots.

So there are 1800 or so pilots right now. The bottom 170 F/Os could potentially be displaced out of their domicile.

The junior 70 pilots could find themselves based in (I still cant believe the stupidity) JFK.

So tell me, how do you take a pilot at newhire pay and force them to live in one of the highest cost cities in the country???

At least they'll be forced to provide lodging for newhires now since they cant use the excuse that they're based in the city where training is accomplished.

This JFK thing is going to be a nightmare next winter. They may as well accept that its going to be a commuter domicile -- get ready for the cancellations.

 

[dvmthwsvan]

no, orlando will go very senior. GSO too, being that it is somewhat in the southeast. But JFK, there will be a few bid it so they can upgrade and what not but I bet about the bottom 80-100 get moved if that many.

 

[DDpaysoff]

All 50 seat crews?

Meeting is over. There was not a lot of details on how the vacancy bids would take place. But, the bases are coming regardless of whether or not the airplanes do. (Can you say buying F/A votes). I would imagine all 50 seat crews, but I don't know for sure. The only place the 700 even goes is TPA out of the new bases and it is just one or two turns a day, so I would imagine 50 seaters.
It sounds like the TPA/MCO thing is still up in the air, and that comair is in discussins with delta on the future alignment of flying to determine where/when the FL base will be. I spoke with two people who were at the meeting and got two different stories about FL, so it must have been pretty grey.

Either way, if FL base happens and you are not top 400 seniority list you probably will never see the place. I bet the junior FO in FL is top 400 seniority number. Just my guess.

 

[dvmthwsvan]

Any questions asked about or did he address the skywest thing?

 

[Guam360]

Florida is for sure.

Just TPA or MCO will be announced when the bid comes out next week. bid will be open for two weeks.

JFK, GSO, FL

FL will virtual, no crew ops, no Chief pilot. check in at the gate and fly, then finish and go home.

 

[Guam360]

Skywest was false, just a rumor.

juniior manning will be from the bottom.(junior FO's, actually senior FO's should fill the bids.)

 

[uba757]

Guam explain. Junior F/O or Senior F/O. Uba757

 

[DDpaysoff]

Skywest was false, just a rumor.

juniior manning will be from the bottom.(junior FO's, actually senior FO's should fill the bids.)

Yeah, I don't think they will have to junior man any captains. I wonder how junior JFK CRJ CA will go. I'm thinking mid 18000 employee numbers, SR 1300 or so. Anyone else care to guess.

 

[dvmthwsvan]

i think guam was saying that senior FO's would probably fill the CA slots

 

[MedFlyer]

IF Comair receives E170's, I wouldn't be surprised to see them sent to the JFK base to do battle with JetBlue's E190's.

It's interesting to see a return to MCO. I wonder if CHQ is going to lose some flying out of MCO or if the Comair flights are growth in addition to the CHQ flights.

 

[AFELLOWAVIATOR]

This is too funny. Some of the yes voters did so for an upgrade. Now they will be JFK Captains. I think the ol saying is "Watch what you wish for, it may come true."

 

[172driver]

Let's suppose they need 70 CA's in JFK. Only 30 existing CA's bid it. Do they have to open it up for a vacancy bid, allowing FO's to bid for the 40 extra slots? Or...can they just JM existing CA's? The language is pretty thick in Sec. 23.

 

[Guam360]

dvm was right...

my guess is also alot of juniior FO's will upgrade , so no need for junior manning.

the 70's will alll fly from CVG, they said. (Fred and Don)

 

[Troy208]

So, with all these senarios, what would be the likely upgrade time now at Comair?

 

[172driver]

Yes, there will be plenty of FO's who would choose to. The question, however, was whether or not the company must give them that choice.

 

[Guam360]

172 driver,
what are you talking about, it is in the contract.All they have to is simply bid for it, if the get it they get it, what is the real question?

 

[DDpaysoff]

See Section 23 of the PWA, it spells it out pretty clearly.
Summary:
1. If a displacement is necessary that potentially displaced pilot will be able to bid in a reallocation bid for a vacancy in the same position in another domicile.
2. The company may elect to carry an overage.
3. You get displaced from your seat.

You better get to know your contract well, you are going to need it over the next two years. Junior captains have to remember, if they bid JFK to protect their seat they are locked there for a year, and now if Sombody leaves Cincy or GSO and creates a vacancy that person can not take it unless the position goes unfilled and there is a secondary bid. Hence, somebody junior to his/her position gets the spot. It is going to be interesting. Especially when the E-170 shows up and no fo's bid it so it goes to NH. That will likely be the best way for a NH to get cincy as a domicile for a while. There will be winners and losers.

Welcome to the real airline world.

 

[Guam360]

the earliest a pilot could be eligible would be like 6 months, you need 500 hours company time to upgrade.

 

[DDpaysoff]

JFK will go to NH FO's and very junior CA's, like 2-3 year FO's upgrading, then hating themselves for it after they get there. Sure there will be 40-50 that bid JFK, but your reserve list will be displacements or recent upgrades.

Hopefully this virtual base thing works out, and new ones like MYR, SAV, TLH, RDU, TYS can start opening up.

I wonder how many captains are going to go back to FO's to get MCO/TPA. I would guess all 30 Fo's are former captains.

 

[Strikefinder]

You may need more than 500 hours, since the 170 is still a Level "C" sim, and Part 121 Appendix H would apply. It's screwing a lot of guys here at Chautauqua right now who are senior enough to move from FO to the 170 (most senior guys are bypassing it right now until things get firmed up better, since we think they're going to monkey with the base structure) and don't have time in two different turbojets.

Per Appendix H, these are the qualification events that can be done in a Level "C" sim. This is different from the 91.157 outline of new type rating requirements and the proverbial 85/15 check. Check it out:

1. For all pilots, transition training between airplanes in the same group, and for a pilot in command the certification check required by §61.153(g) this chapter.

{This means you can move, per transition training (see 121.400), between PIC on, for Comair folks, the CRJ and 170 and between SIC on the CRJ and the SIC on the 170. I don't know how Comair's contract affects this}

2. Upgrade to pilot-in-command training and the certification check when the pilot—

{and remember, per FAR121.400, you must have previously qualified on the aircraft to be eligible for “upgrade” training}

a. Has previously qualified as second in command in the equipment to which the pilot is upgrading;

{This first one is applicable to pilots serving on the EMB170. If you’re a 170 SIC, you can upgrade when you have 500 hours in turbojets}

b. Has at least 500 hours of actual flight time while serving as second in command in an airplane of the same group; and

{So you must have 500 hours in turbojets}

c. Is currently serving as second in command in an airplane in this same group.

{Every FO meets this requirement, since all Comair's aircraft are turbojets}

3. Initial pilot-in-command training and the certification check when the pilot—

{Remember, initial training is when you haven’t served as PIC and you haven’t served on the aircraft. If you’re not flying the 170 in the right seat and you’re not the PIC, this is the burden you must meet:}

a. Is currently serving as second in command in an airplane of the same group;

{Again, all Comair FOs are}

b. Has a minimum of 2,500 flight hours as second in command in an airplane of the same group; and

{This is a lot of SIC time, but that’s the rules. I don't know what the average longevity of FOs at Comair is and whether or not this would affect them.}

c. Has served as second in command on at least two airplanes of the same group.

{Again, if you came straight into the CRJ, you will not meet this burden}


I don't know if this would affect anybody or not, but it's something worth considering I guess.

 

[Anaconda]

I wonder how many captains are going to go back to FO's to get MCO/TPA. I would guess all 30 Fo's are former captains.

i'm still trying to find a reference but i don't believe downbidding would be allowed in such an instance

yeah, now that i've looked closer the only instance i can find in the contract of being allowed to downbid would be if you lose your medical...

 

[DDpaysoff]

i'm still trying to find a reference but i don't believe downbidding would be allowed in such an instance

yeah, now that i've looked closer the only instance i can find in the contract of being allowed to downbid would be if you lose your medical...

I'm trying to find a reference as well. All I can find on this subject is section 23.O.12. But, the 36 month downbid seat lock only applies to junior assigned pilots. Keep in mind all of the last Orlando brasilia people were JUNIOR ASSIGNED to the CRJ CVG. So, absent a new LOA, they may very well be able to downbid since they were displaced from Brasilia CA- to CRJ-CA. They would just incur a 36 month seat lock.

 

[Guam360]

Rob Kunheim said "yes, you can downbid", it's the same equipment.

"500 hours" is in our contract to upgrade.

 

[172driver]

OK, bear with me here guys. I am an ignorant, single base monkey. Terms like secondary bid, reallocation bid, displacement bid are new to me.

There is no growth and the company wants to keep the number of CA's the same as it is now, say 900. Only 30 bid JFK and 70 slots exist.

What then? The bottom 40 CA's who see the writing on the wall get to bid again (reallocation?), choosing to either hold JFK CA or lose their left seat in CVG?

Guam, I guess my question is basically what happens if the existing CA's don't bid JFK? If it opens to FO's wanting the upgrade, then we have extra CA's in CVG that the company doesn't want there? Or do they lose their seat?

 

[dav8or]

IF Comair receives E170's, I wouldn't be surprised to see them sent to the JFK base to do battle with JetBlue's E190's.

It's interesting to see a return to MCO. I wonder if CHQ is going to lose some flying out of MCO or if the Comair flights are growth in addition to the CHQ flights.

Chq is already reducing MCO and shifting flying to FLL

 

[DDpaysoff]

OK, bear with me here guys. I am an ignorant, single base monkey. Terms like secondary bid, reallocation bid, displacement bid are new to me.



Guam, I guess my question is basically what happens if the existing CA's don't bid JFK? If it opens to FO's wanting the upgrade, then we have extra CA's in CVG that the company doesn't want there? Or do they lose their seat?

Fo's can bid for the position and if nobody else bids for it they get it. If you can hold it on the bid, you get it. Period. The company is stuck with a surplus. They can A. keep the surplus,or B. have a displacement bid. In the event of a displacement bid, the displaced left seater can take anyones position junior to them (including JFK CRJ CA).

Does that clear it up any?

I've been through this many times at another airline, based on previous experience and the fact that the two contracts have almost exactly the same language, I can tell you there will not be many displacements, if any because of new a/c showing up and training. Relax, it will all work out, however JFK CRJ CA will probably go into the 1300's. They needed to open up the new bases now, so they can hire and upgrade FO's quick enough to staff the CRJ's that show up in June.

 

[DDpaysoff]

The biggest dilemna is for the Junior captains in cvg, if they stay in cvg they will still be junior captains in cvg for a long time or they can opt to leave to jfk or maybe gso depending on how many people bid gso. They have to time it right so they don't miss out on any future cvg crj ca vacancies while they are in their 12 month base lock. I don't want to sound like I have all the answers, but I have been through this BS 3 or 4 times. At least it won't be boring around here anymore.

The biggest question I have is how many people will give up 10's of thousands of dollars a year to stop the MCO/CVG commute. Becuase you know once the tip 30 ca's go, ain't nun of 'em leavin'. I know one for a fact that will do it. I bet there are 29 more, but I could be wrong.
I am happy for the MCO people that will have the opportunity to go back home, they were the biggest victims of the the strike and the company's past arrogance. They didn't deserve that crap. I will miss flying with them, that is for sure.

 

[Anaconda]

Rob Kunheim said "yes, you can downbid", it's the same equipment.

yeah, but 23-3 A 1 states "Except as provided in this section, downbidding, i.e., bidding from a captain postion to a first officer postion, will not be permitted." given that the only exception i have found so far is if you lose your 1st class medical, i would like to know what kunheim is talking about. regardless, it doesn't apply to me.

not sure what is meant by the mco guys being junior assigned. the base was closed, they we had no choice but to move to cvg. how is that being junior assigned?

 

[DDpaysoff]

Rob Kunheim said "yes, you can downbid", it's the same equipment.

yeah, but 23-3 A 1 states "Except as provided in this section, downbidding, i.e., bidding from a captain postion to a first officer postion, will not be permitted." given that the only exception i have found so far is if you lose your 1st class medical, i would like to know what kunheim is talking about. regardless, it doesn't apply to me.

not sure what is meant by the mco guys being junior assigned. the base was closed, they we had no choice but to move to cvg. how is that being junior assigned?

The Orlando pilots were displaced as a result of a base closure and may elect to transition from their current position to any other position with no seat lock. There are already people who have done this. CRJ-700 FO's bid back to the CRJ-200 and CRJ-200 CA's bid back to CRJ-200 FO. Heck, my Indoc instructor went back to FO, for MCO commuting reasons.

 

[Anaconda]

yeah, i would certainly agree i was displaced out of orlando, but not junior assigned. 70 seat fo's have incurred a seat lock for bidding back to the 50 - three years to be exact. we may be talking semantics here, however i think the paragraph speaks for itself as far as going from cpt to fo.