comair

[tiffanytaylor]

Heard they are offering voluntary furlough or buyouts soon. Anyone hear this? It's for both pilots and f/as.

 

[wmuflyguy]

And what would you be willing to give up out of your contract to buy a change
in Comair's hiring policy?

Why do we have to give something up to show support for the policy change?

They didn't even ask for a policy change, the JC MEC said they supported the current policy. Unless THEY got something. No where is it hinted that they would have to give anything up.

 

[MACHTRANSDUCER]

what's the DOH for furlough?

 

[N813CA]

ok. So the union decided something without a pilot vote. So at the time 1,400 pilots now 900 pilots should be punished? Wasn't our vote, and no my union doesn't speak for me!

 

[N2264J]

Why do we have to give something up to show support for the policy change?

Oh sure, empty gestures, pandering and window dressing beats out substance every time at ALPA. It's all about the image.

No where is it hinted that they would have to give anything up.

Someone would have had to offset the training costs of putting Delta furloughees, who had no intention of making Comair a career, in Comair seats plus whatever scheduling burdens might come to the Comair pilot group from numerous furloughees a month being called back to mainline, which manifests itself as junior manning and extentions. The fact is that because Comair was a wholly owned subsidiary, the Delta MEC could have gone to Delta management and bought that policy change themselves but they didn't want to.

What goes unsaid is that all ALPA furloughees were welcomed at Comair. I've flown with United and US Airways furloughees who didn't seem to have a hard-on about being here. The only pilot group that suffered from the much ballyhooed righteous indignation are the Delta pilots who seemed to have this "birthright" sense of entitlement to our seats.

The Delta pilots made it very clear to us during the merger petition in 2000, that we were separate companies. They got what they wanted yet they're the ones screaming the loudest about it.

 

[tiffanytaylor]

Heard they are offering voluntary furlough or buyouts soon. Anyone hear this? It's for both pilots and f/as.

I quoted my own post sorry. I heard they are offering them.

 

[tiffanytaylor]

P.S. They want 20% paycuts for the remaining pilots at Comair who don't get furloughed.

 

[on autopilot]

p.s. They want 20% paycuts for the remaining pilots at comair who don't get furloughed.

tell them to go intercourse themselves! full pay till the last day!

 

[Bugsmasher Plus]

So has he got his new position?
He had the dinner though.
So what exec are you reffering to, and where is it he coming from. It's hard to follow you posts sometimes.

I understand that Soap may be landing in MEM.

 

[Bugsmasher Plus]

Comair pilots had nothing to do with it. Comair Management said no. I have never spoken with a pilot at Comair that was against letting them keep their senority.

This was a management decision and it was done with much heartache. There were many former Comair pilots low on the list at Delta that got furloughed from DAL and wanted to return to Comair. The policy at the time was clear about giving up their seniority number and resigning from their previous employer. They chose to maintain the status quo and not change the policy. That was the core of the issue, there was obviously more to it, but the decision was made to treat all pilots the same regardless of where they were coming from.

 

[N813CA]

plus my understanding is if a company wants to call you back even if you "give up the right" than you can quit and go back. Thats up to the company you got let go from. I know a couple of United guys that came to comair giving it up "" and felt that United would still call them.

 

[FDJ2]

Oh sure, empty gestures, pandering and window dressing beats out substance every time at ALPA. It's all about the image.



Someone would have had to offset the training costs of putting Delta furloughees, who had no intention of making Comair a career, in Comair seats plus whatever scheduling burdens might come to the Comair pilot group from numerous furloughees a month being called back to mainline, which manifests itself as junior manning and extentions. The fact is that because Comair was a wholly owned subsidiary, the Delta MEC could have gone to Delta management and bought that policy change themselves but they didn't want to.

What goes unsaid is that all ALPA furloughees were welcomed at Comair. I've flown with United and US Airways furloughees who didn't seem to have a hard-on about being here. The only pilot group that suffered from the much ballyhooed righteous indignation are the Delta pilots who seemed to have this "birthright" sense of entitlement to our seats.

The Delta pilots made it very clear to us during the merger petition in 2000, that we were separate companies. They got what they wanted yet they're the ones screaming the loudest about it.

What a load of cr@p.

Didn't cost the ASA pilots a thing, yet you stick with this BS.

The fact is that JC and the RJDC crowd wanted to leverage furloughed Delta pilots into an opportunity to extract scope concessions. One of the most disgusting displays I have ever seen.

All your BS about it costing the CMR pilots to allow furloughed DAL pilots to keep their DAL seniority number is just a pretext and you know it.

Disgusting. It's a shame that the junior CMR pilots are stuck with the RJDC stink.

 

[AV8700]

What a load of cr@p.

Didn't cost the ASA pilots a thing, yet you stick with this BS.

The fact is that JC and the RJDC crowd wanted to leverage furloughed Delta pilots into an opportunity to extract scope concessions. One of the most disgusting displays I have ever seen.

All your BS about it costing the CMR pilots to allow furloughed DAL pilots to keep their DAL seniority number is just a pretext and you know it.

Disgusting. It's a shame that the junior CMR pilots are stuck with the RJDC stink.

ASA policy didn't require you to resign your seniority number.

 

[Caveman]

But the Comair MEC did try to turn the matter into a negotiating tactic, with the aim of relaxing Delta scope. This is why it caused so much bitterness amongst the Delta pilot group -- especially amongst the furloughees. Your MEC was asked for their input, and their input was to suggest that no exception should be made for furloughed Delta pilots, but instead to relax Delta's scope clause.



TO: Comair Pilots
FROM: J.C. Lawson, Comair MEC Chairman
DATE: December 16, 2002

Your MEC met in CVG with the Delta MEC Chairman, Captain Will Buergey, at his request, to discuss preferential hiring of furloughed Delta pilots at Comair. Through this letter, I hope to dispel rumors and provide a more thorough understanding of the purpose and outcome of that meeting.

The Delta MEC, while in session at the bi-annual October Board of Directors meeting in Hollywood, Florida, formally directed the Delta MEC Chairman via resolution to meet with the Comair MEC Chairman to seek preferential hiring for furloughed Delta pilots at Comair while allowing them to retain their Delta seniority.

The general philosophy held by the Comair MEC is:

We are sensitive to the regrettable plight of all furloughed pilots in our industry.
We encourage our management to hire pilots who seek a future at Comair.
We have formally approached Comair management and our management has agreed to preferential hiring of furloughed ALPA pilots.
We agree with our company's policy that requires prospective Comair pilots to resign their seniority at their previous carrier.
We believe our Company's industry-standard policy requiring seniority resignation is sound and wise. It promotes the general health and welfare of all Comair employees and serves to protect the future of our company.
At our meeting in CVG, Captain Buergey offered preferential hiring to Comair pilots if the Comair MEC would recommend to Comair management that they hire furloughed Delta pilots and allow them to retain their Delta seniority.

Your MEC responded that hiring any pilots at Comair who do not resign their seniority at their previous carrier gives rise to numerous substantive concerns. The Delta MEC's offer of (future) preferential hiring at Delta is not sufficiently substantive to overcome those concerns and solicit Comair pilots' support. We suggested three alternative concepts, any one or all of which might lead to a mutually beneficial solution:

Relax the Delta PWA, Section 1, seat restrictions imposed upon Comair and ASA that limit our growth in 70-seat and larger airframes.Negotiate Delta Brand Scope language with Delta management that defines all Delta flying within the Delta revenue stream to be performed solely by Delta, Comair, and ASA pilots.
Negotiate a plan for future integration of our Delta, Comair, and ASA pilots seniority lists that fairly recognizes the efforts and contributions of all.

The Comair MEC stands ready to work with the collective MEC's to bring about change that makes sense in a challenging economic environment and works for all pilots who perform flying under the Delta brand. As we stated in the Tuesday, December 3rd meeting, our door is still open.

COMAIR MEC
AIR LINE PILOTS ASSOCIATION, INTERNATIONAL
SUITE 120 3940 OLYMPIC BOULEVARD ERLANGER, KY 41018
859-282-9016 FAX 859-283-5533

I highlighted a couple of points you chose not to.

Comair was and still is owned by Delta. At any time the DAL CEO could have directed the Comair CEO to waive or change the resignation policy for DAL pilots.

The DAL MEC could have asked the DAL CEO to intervene and encourage the Comair CEO to change the policy. Did he even ask?

The DAL MEC could have asked the DAL CEO to ignore any resignation letters and rehire everybody returning from Comair. There is industry precedence for this. Did he even ask?

Why is it that the DAL MEC believed his only course of action regarding the hiring of pilots at Comair was to demand that the Comair MEC get the policy changed?

There is no question that Lawson fumbled the ball on this issue. He handled it badly. He could have simply said that he'd look into it and see if Comair management would be receptive to a change.

There is also no question in my mind that the DAL MEC is using and has used this issue to foment hate, discontent and discord for union political points. He's made the Comair pilots a red herring and strawman for every other labor/economic issue where he has failed as an MEC. Case in point: scope. He gave away the farm by allowing RJs so he's deflecting blame towards the RJ pilots.

The truth is the DAL MEC didn't want to find a solution. It was and is more politically expedient to have someone to blame. That takes the pressure of of him. Add in Lawson's ineptness and you have the perfect storm. I have to give Burgey props. He played his hand well.

The whole resignation issue could have been fixed with one phone call to Comair from a bigshot at Delta. They didn't want it changed because it would have cost Delta vis-a-vis Comair a ton of money to hire the furloughee, train the furloughee, lose the furloughee back to mainline, requal the furloughee (possiblly retrain in a new a/c), hire a replacement for Comair and train that replacement. That's a lot of money just to keep one furloughee employed. It would have been cheaper to just keep them on the payroll at Delta.

 

[GogglesPisano]

A lot of people dropped the ball in regards to DL furloughees. Fortunately for the furloughees ASA picked up the ball. As a result there have been a disproportionate number of ASA pilots hired at DL since 2007.

This doesn't change the fact that Lawson took advantage of Delta furloughs in a cynical attempt to weaken Delta's scope, instead of helping them out.

 

[N813CA]

I still had no say in this. So why can't I go to Delta?

 

[doh]

Good for Briner. He was always decent to me but he was never comfortable in an airplane as long as I knew him. Where did Piper go?

 

[N2264J]

Disgusting. It's a shame that the junior CMR pilots are stuck with the RJDC stink.

The fact is, if a Comair pilot fits the profile, Delta will hire you. The disadvantage comes from Delta picking up all the training events if they hire a Comair pilot - ie training at mainline, training a replacement at Comair (two evolutions if they hire a Comair captain). If they hire an ASA pilot, however, they're only paying for one training evolution at mainline so the Comair pilot has to score more points in the interview to justify the added expense.

But I'm sure management sincerely appreciates the help of Delta pilots in driving wedges in a pilot group preparing for Section 6. Really, you guys have no moral authority to lecture anyone about what's disgusting in a union.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Refresh my memory...What did the Delta MEC do for the Eastern pilots who were out of work while Delta picked up their former routes?

 

[Broke in CVG]

The disadvantage comes from Delta picking up all the training events if they hire a Comair pilot - ie training at mainline, training a replacement at Comair (two evolutions if they hire a Comair captain).

With 500+ furloughs coming in 2011/12, I don't think that's a problem since Comair isn't ever going to hire again.

 

[P38JLightning]

I don't think training costs are even a factor these days. First of all when you hire someone from a regional, its "usually" someone with Captain PIC time that tends to be in the upper half of the longevity scale anyway. Not always, but quite often. They are then replaced with a more junior Captain and his replacement (a "senior" FO) is replaced with a new hire at poverty wages, new hire vacation/sick accrual, lower 401(k) match, etc.

In addition to that, with so many regionals flying for anyone and everyone, it really doesn't matter anymore even if training costs were that big of a consideration, which they aren't anyway. Even when it did it matter many years ago, it was a miniscule cost that may have only been considered if it was "your" regional in the throws of crisis hiring, in many cases with 3 or 4 fleet types as well. Those days are long gone. It will pick up again with the retirements at mainlines in a few years, but it will just won't be that big of a factor. If you're hiring someone for 20-30+ years, a training event or two at a regional that you probably don't even own isn't even beer money to the people making the decisions.

 

[N2264J]

With 500+ furloughs coming in 2011/12, I don't think that's a problem since Comair isn't ever going to hire again.

Just to recap, this is the context of the conversation:

Fortunately for the furloughees ASA picked up the ball. As a result there have been a disproportionate number of ASA pilots hired at DL since 2007.

Goggles is asserting that ASA got the disproportionate nod because ASA pilots welcomed Delta furloughees although ASA didn't have the same hiring policy.
I'm saying there was a cost differential involved.

I don't think training costs are even a factor these days.

Any cost at every airline is always a factor.

 

[regionalcap]

Just to recap, this is the context of the conversation:



Goggles is asserting that ASA got the disproportionate nod because ASA pilots welcomed Delta furloughees although ASA didn't have the same hiring policy.
I'm saying the real reason is that there was a cost differential involved.



Any cost at every airline is always a factor.

My class had 6 guys from ASA in it. Most other regionals maybe had 1 or so. I firmly believe that the ASA hiring of Delta pilots plays a large role in getting hired at Delta. ASA treated them right and it has come back to pay off for the pilots.

 

[N2264J]

...I firmly believe that the ASA hiring of Delta pilots [without requiring them to resign their number at Delta] plays a large role in getting hired at Delta. ASA treated them right and it has come back to pay off for the pilots.

So your position is that the ASA pilots were disproportionally hired at Delta because of an ASA hiring policy the pilots had no control over.

Q Why don't the Delta pilots change the hiring criterion at Delta to favor Comair furloughees? They weren't here for the strike, didn't participate in the RJDC, and don't agree with Comair's hiring policy.

A Even if the Delta pilots wanted to, they couldn't. Hiring practices are not covered by the contract.

 

[Bugsmasher Plus]

Good for Briner. He was always decent to me but he was never comfortable in an airplane as long as I knew him. Where did Piper go?

Mike got out of the business altogether and is doing very well for himself. I know he misses the flying part and doesn't miss the rest of it.

 

[PudgeyDingus]

Piper!? I wonder how his SCAB problem is going?

 

[Cobraair75drvr]

I think that is an great idea. Delta should hire the junior cmr pilots. That would piss off the lifer's even more.

So your position is that the ASA pilots were disproportionally hired at Delta because of an ASA hiring policy the pilots had no control over.

Q Why don't the Delta pilots change the hiring criterion at Delta to favor Comair furloughees? They weren't here for the strike, didn't participate in the RJDC, and don't agree with Comair's hiring policy.

A Even if the Delta pilots wanted to, they couldn't. Hiring practices are not covered by the contract.

 

[Scope out RJ's]

So your position is that the ASA pilots were disproportionally hired at Delta because of an ASA hiring policy the pilots had no control over.

Q Why don't the Delta pilots change the hiring criterion at Delta to favor Comair furloughees? They weren't here for the strike, didn't participate in the RJDC, and don't agree with Comair's hiring policy.

A Even if the Delta pilots wanted to, they couldn't. Hiring practices are not covered by the contract.

Hi poindexter.
Looks like JC, Jessie, Dan and the rest of you girls are going to have to learn how to say, "wecome to walmart.":laugh:
It couldn't have happened to a nicer group!
Maybe you can get joemerchant to help you get on at ASA.

 

[wms]

So your position is that the ASA pilots were disproportionally hired at Delta because of an ASA hiring policy the pilots had no control over.

Q Why don't the Delta pilots change the hiring criterion at Delta to favor Comair furloughees? They weren't here for the strike, didn't participate in the RJDC, and don't agree with Comair's hiring policy.

A Even if the Delta pilots wanted to, they couldn't. Hiring practices are not covered by the contract.

The ASA pilots did have a say over the hiring policies. The company asked the MEC if we would be willing to give preferential interviews to DAL pilots and be willing to let them keep their seniority. The MEC agreed to it. And it was the MEC at OH (JC) that refused to do the same at Comair.

 

[wms]

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