Comair Vote Results ???

[JustaNumber]

Your idea is both noble and altruistic but it embodies concepts that exist only in the imagination, not in reality. There is unity and loyalty within individual airlines but there has never been any unity or loyalty between airlines.

Unity is a figment of the imagination. It only exists when there is common interest without economic penalty, such as medical or safety issues. When there is money involved, it's every man for himself.

Perhaps I'm being extremely naive, but I like to think that the world is what we make it.

Once upon a time, ALPA pilot groups were eager to jump at the chance to improve upon their fellow pilots' contracts. It was win-win for everybody. I agree that when there's money involved, it's every man for himself, but it sure would be nice if everyone could figure out that if we ALL only voted for increases and never decreases, we could belong to a world where there is common interest without economic penalty, every man for himself along with economic benefit. True leadership could foster such an environment, but that leadership has been sorely lacking from anyone recently.

 

[Bosley]

You and others ,Fins included, are busting on Comair pilots.

Busting on anyone who is suffering money losses , facing furlough or losing their job is absolutely pathetic. I have been on furlough, I have lost everything I have, stood in umemployment lines, collected welfare, and when I read things like this, it makes me wonder what kind of monster is actually piloting an aircraft:

Pray you never have to endure unemployment pal, it isn't pretty!

Originally Posted by lawman
I pray for the failure of your company. Better get your application in at Wendies so you can save up the cups and earn free trips on Airtrash

 

[Axel]

...Unless you can get *everybody* involved, the chance of success is virtually non-existant, in my view.

This, right here, is the most concise and accurate description of the strategy so successfully employed by our collective managements.

Management keeps us fighting amongst ourselves with the INTENT of preventing us from forming a common defense. They have divided and are in the process of conquering. Do you think maybe they discussed this with each other and it might even be a PLAN???

"Alright Fred, nice job with Comair. Next it'll be Bryan's turn to hold the Comair concessions up to the Republic pilots and after that...let's see..oh, yeah, it'll be Johnny's turn again. And by the way, Johnny, that Freedom thing was brilliant. Look how well it's working for Hulas. OK, meeting adjorned. Next week same time? "

And what do we do to counter the strategy? We don't. We are an integral part of it; just too stupid to see that.

Who is this week's workin' girl? Guess its Comair's turn to pull the train. Management has/is playing us from top to bottom like a cheap accordion and we just keep clapping in time.

It is not Mesa, not Comair, not the contract carriers, not the mainline, not the wholly owneds who are leading this so-called race to the bottom; at least not in the way we believe. All of us are racing headlong downhill in one giant thundering herd. No pilot group is leading the race; stampedes don't have leaders. Instead, the herd (mob, rabble, whatever) voluntarily and willingly follows the course plotted for us by a management as they watch us turn upon ourselves.

We are collectively the tools of management. We do their work for them. All of us.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Agreed. What I don't understand is, why don't two or more MEC's get together and make a oath to stand together and go down together? I believe most ASA pilots would have stood by your side and could have simultaneously given Delta the finger.

Whatever happened to the concept of loyalty and unity? It's the only answer that I can see. Any other better ideas?

In a perfect world, you would be right. This isn't a perfect world and there isn't much loyalty and unity in this business. The ALG/PDT/PSA MECs tried exactly what you suggested when the Jets4Jobs gun was held to their heads. They "agreed" to stick together, but PSA broke ranks first, and then the whole coalition fell apart. Next, the ASA and CMR MECs tried what you suggested, and well it didn't really work.

The only way to make it work is to have a single ALPA bargaining agent that negotiates with the "brand" management (ie Delta, United, Northwest, etc.).
Having 4, 5, or 6 separate MECs compete within the brand is a losing proposition from the start.

 

[n6604f]

definition: Flying Baffoons; Comair pilots that woted yes to concessions, most of which were not there in 01' other wise they would of voted NO!

 

[JustaNumber]

The only way to make it work is to have a single ALPA bargaining agent that negotiates with the "brand" management (ie Delta, United, Northwest, etc.).
Having 4, 5, or 6 separate MECs compete within the brand is a losing proposition from the start.

That sounds like an interesting idea. But how would you go about setting it up? Especially since you're dealing with a multitude of airlines within a brand, some having the Teamsters, some having no union, all having contracts that expire on different dates. Would everyone have to agree to bring ALPA on their property? Would ALPA have to change its representational structure, in order to create one single "Super MEC"? How would the Super MEC handle a situation where a single pilot group still insisted on flying for less than its brothers? (You think the fights are bad on this msg board, wait til the individual airlines start fighting with each other over the next 79 seater at the local MEC meetings). And could the major airline then do an end run around this Super MEC by contracting with someone new who wasn't represented, or creating another holding company ala G-o-j-e-t-s? Could this actually work?

Tell me more. I like the idea so far.

 

[davessn763]

Dave, are you happy with your "NO" vote now? Looking back...did it make sense?



Everyone wants a sacrificial lamb...as long as it isn't them. Ultimately that will be up to XJT management and the XJT pilots.

-Neal

Neal,
Voting no in the fall of 2004 was for me the right thing to do, there are a lot of variables in our contract that are at the company's discretion, mainly though I was unsatisfied with the FO pay not being 60% of CA rates, which I believe was up to us and not management, let me know if I am wrong on this. I also wasn't going to approve of a contract where my guaranteed salary would be less than an FO at a non union carrier, Skywest. Some times you have to put your foot down and say this is not good enough.
With that said, I am unfortunately glad to be among the highest paid ERJ-145 pilots now. I wonder how long it will be before its our turn to vote on paycuts, or I am displaced back to the right seat. Hopefully none of that will happen and I can gain the expirience at XJT that I need to move on to the next step in this career.

 

[BluDevAv8r]

Neal,
Voting no in the fall of 2004 was for me the right thing to do,

Everyone clearly had to make a personal choice. Nothing wrong with your vote or your choice.

there are a lot of variables in our contract that are at the company's discretion,

There are less of those variables today than under C'97 and every contract has those variables unfortunately.

mainly though I was unsatisfied with the FO pay not being 60% of CA rates, which I believe was up to us and not management, let me know if I am wrong on this.

Yes, we could have brought all FO's to 60% and in doing that, your CA rate today would be less than it is. Squeeze one end of the balloon and the other gets smaller. We had to make difficult choices in how to balance out the money. FO's all (with the exception of first year FO's) got a bigger percentage increase than Captains. Remember we had a difficult starting point with our FO percentage of CA on the rate.

I also wasn't going to approve of a contract where my guaranteed salary would be less than an FO at a non union carrier, Skywest.

I believe there were one or two years where the rate was less. But did you compare 401k plans? Scheduling sections? Vacation sections? Scope sections? etc.

Some times you have to put your foot down and say this is not good enough.

Of course there are those times...though we laid out the risks to doing that and it appears those risks held true.

With that said, I am unfortunately glad to be among the highest paid ERJ-145 pilots now. I wonder how long it will be before its our turn to vote on paycuts, or I am displaced back to the right seat. Hopefully none of that will happen and I can gain the expirience at XJT that I need to move on to the next step in this career.

Time will tell. We definitely have the bullseye on our head now that CMR has had their contract gutted. I am definitely glad, however, that we didn't vote no out of principle to hold out for the illusory "release by the NMB" or some "bigger pay package by the company." One must balance the risk versus the reward and I am glad we ratified our contract when we did because the alternative surely wouldn't have been better in my personal view.

-Neal

 

[mrnolmts]

Management keeps us fighting amongst ourselves with the INTENT of preventing us from forming a common defense. They have divided and are in the process of conquering. Do you think maybe they discussed this with each other and it might even be a PLAN???

"Alright Fred, nice job with Comair. Next it'll be Bryan's turn to hold the Comair concessions up to the Republic pilots and after that...let's see..oh, yeah, it'll be Johnny's turn again. And by the way, Johnny, that Freedom thing was brilliant. Look how well it's working for Hulas. OK, meeting adjorned. Next week same time? "

I believe this answers that question:
http://www.regionalhub.com/?a=1&id=3848

 

[172driver]

definition: Flying Baffoons; Comair pilots that woted yes to concessions, most of which were not there in 01' other wise they would of voted NO!

This is probably bait but what the heck.

I have no proof but I would guess that at least 75% of the yes voters, probably more, were here in '01. They have a lot more to lose than the junior folks who can easily replace their CMR wages by working at Sears, Home Depot, etc.