Comair Stuff

[atrdriver]

Negligence implies that the crew did something intentionally wrong to cause the accident. I would be careful throwing out that word. Yes, they made a mistake. Unfortunatly it was the mistake that they couldn't get out of. We all make mistakes, on a daily basis, even you. So far we have been lucky that the mistakes that we make have ended up being learning experiences. But there is a difference between making a mistake and being negligent. And while I feel for each and every passengers family and loved ones, you and they need to remember that the crew lost their lives too, and this will leave an un replaceable void in the loves of their loved ones as well. They are all in my thoughts and prayers.

 

[VABB]

From Merrian-Webster:

1 a : marked by or given to neglect especially habitually or culpably b : failing to exercise the care expected of a reasonably prudent person in like circumstances
2 : marked by a carelessly easy manner

Now we're gettting into lawyer territory, so don't ask me to expand on this. Only wanted to post a definition.

 

[Papa Woody]

Negligence implies that the crew did something intentionally wrong to cause the accident.

That is incorrect.

Negligence specifically rejects intent to harm.

 

[ReportCanoa]

That is incorrect.

Negligence specifically rejects intent to harm.

Negligence is a legal term designed by lawyers. It has nothing to do with making a mistake, but in the courtroom, it wins lawsuits. One can only hope the pilots are not named in the suits, but they will be. I feel for the families of the crew because on top of everything they'll have to deal with that. What we need are federal laws that prohibit litigation against specific employees unless there is proof of intent to harm.

 

[VABB]

Negligence is a legal term designed by lawyers. It has nothing to do with making a mistake, but in the courtroom, it wins lawsuits. One can only hope the pilots are not named in the suits, but they will be. I feel for the families of the crew because on top of everything they'll have to deal with that. What we need are federal laws that prohibit litigation against specific employees unless there is proof of intent to harm.

From Merriam-Webster:

1 a : the quality or state of being negligent b : failure to exercise the care that a reasonably prudent person would exercise in like circumstances
2 : an act or instance of being negligent

 

[Rip Vanwinkle]

Totally inappropriate. All the moreso since you've got a whopping 50 hours in a 152 and are a mod. I see you're a "NWA CSA". If you were to get your clip-on caught in the luggage conveyer-belt and wound up dead, I wouldn't presume to tell others that you died because you were stupid, particularly if I weren't there to see it. I certainly wouldn't presume to tell other CSAs that they didn't deserve a raise because you made a mistake.

 

[PilotOnTheRise]

Totally inappropriate. All the moreso since you've got a whopping 50 hours in a 152 and are a mod. I see you're a "NWA CSA". If you were to get your clip-on caught in the luggage conveyer-belt and wound up dead, I wouldn't presume to tell others that you died because you were stupid, particularly if I weren't there to see it. I certainly wouldn't presume to tell other CSAs that they didn't deserve a raise because you made a mistake.

My original post is misunderstood. It didn't come out right.

I am not saying the pilots were "stupid", nor am I saying any COMAIR pilots are. My point was, and nothing more, than to the public, this was pilot error, and trying to argue pilots deserve more pay is not going to hold up to the public, especially the family member's of those lost on the COMAIR flight. In my post, I was pointing out comments I've heard passengers making at the airport.

I never said I thought pilots didn't deserve a raise. My post was supposed to be pointing out the publics view right now.

I am deeply sorry if I was misunderstood. MY prayers are with those as COMAIR, AIRTRAN, and those family members who lost loved ones on this flight, as well as the surviving FO.

I am not an experienced pilot, and am not claiming to know what happened on that COMAIR flight. I know from looking at the diagrams, and considering the work recently done on this airport, it was probably more than easy to make that mistake, and probably a mistake waiting to happen at that airport. I think the COMAIR crew did everything they could to get that plane flying, or stopped, once they realized what was happening.

Again, my original post did not come off correct, and was simply meant to say what is in the public eye, not mine.

 

[RJ Bum]

Fellas, let the FAA, NTSB, and ALPA do their job. Stop making uneducated guesses on who was at fault. NO ONE on these boards have all the facts and cicumstances.

And to save you time, yes I'm Comair, yes I knew members of the crew and no I'm not going to share info that is not appropriate.

God speed CMR Flt 5191
Jimbo our prayers are with you!

 

[atlcrashpad]

RJBum,

I couldn't agree with you more. Well said and so very sorry for the loss of your friends and coworkers.

 

[RichO]

Gosh,give it a rest.... crap happens......it's hard enough for the folks at Comair to deal with this, but why don't we analyze it in private for a bit until the dust settles....also, anyone who says that they never make a mistake, I'll be the first to jump off your airplane...I'm not implying that their was a mistake made or anything...but give it a rest for a while.........as Comair use to be one of the best regionals, now due to all the whores out their I will be surprised if Comair makes it past the law suites alive..........I enjoyed the years I worked there and just shake my head at what the regionals have become because of a lack of unity among fellow regional pilots.......no group yet has had the balls to stand up to managment....how does everyone sleep at night??????? What a shame..........I just thank god I can pursue another career but yet get all the flying I want in the Reserves so I don't have to continue to experience the complete distruction of the regionals..........

 

[FDJ2]

Negligence is a legal term designed by lawyers.

Black's Law Dictionary defines negligence as "the failure to use such care as a reasonably prudent and careful person would use under similar circumstances...."

 

[erj-145mech]

And according to the NTSB, the crew initially pre-flighted the wrong aircraft on sunday morning, including firing up the APU, before realizing it, and were rushed into getting the right aircraft ready for the morning flight.

 

[geojet707]

And according to the NTSB, the crew initially pre-flighted the wrong aircraft on sunday morning, including firing up the APU, before realizing it, and were rushed into getting the right aircraft ready for the morning flight.

A common occurrence especially with several aircraft at the same gate. At my last airline, when the crew arrives at the gate, the gate agent usually advises what aircraft is to be taken. The flight release is usually not there and is finally brought to the crew as they are completing the preflight. I am somewhat sure this is the manner of things at OH as well. Regardless, this event has nothing to do with the other as it still takes 10-15 minutes to board 48 passengers, check in their carry-ons and process the final paperwork. Enough time to re-group and move on even if things are starting to run late.

Understandable point erj-145mech but at the end of the day I it may be an irrelevant one.

Folks, let the powers to be sort this out and lets all do our best to keep the passengers, families and survivor of 5191 in our prayers.

 

[Auto-Rotator]

I could not agree with RJ Bum any more than what has been said. I sense all of you writing here understand what will eventually be played out in the courtroom on this issue; once the NTSB has finalized their reports. Ultimately there will be a judgement because of the findings and the insurers involved will ante up their millions.
However, while we are talking about "Negligence" in its varied legal fashions, keep in mind a couple of elements, there is "strict" liability/negligence and "contributory" negligence. Both of these undoubtedly will come into focus. It is my best guess that while it's so painful to see, the insurers for Comair and Delta will pay a large portion of the award; but, as I stated yesterday on another post, contributory liability will certainly become mitigating factors and those will partially exhonerate some of the crews' actions on this fatal day.
Comair, it's officers and employees are doing everything they can to put the families and friends of 5191 ahead of everything they are engaged in doing around the clock and I commend everyone who has played a part in making such a painful, agonizing several days, the very best humanly possible.

We react to situations like this in understanding that we ALL are capable of making human mistakes and judgements. Of course, it was NOT their intent to proceed down the wrong runway and kill everyone on board! But, as was eloquently stated earlier, this is what case lawsuits are made of and in the good ole' USA, somebody's gonna pay up for the loss of these folks who were innocently onboard a aircraft that was owned, operated and maintained by Comair, which is owned by Delta Air Lines.

As a pilot and former military person, my heart aches for the crew and their loved ones as well as those onboard. But, the tort system in the U.S. will define ultimately in a courtroom who will be responsible (negligent) for these deaths. It's the American way and the NTSB will make certain all of the facts and illuminate all of the contributory factors involved so that all parties will have to be defended.

 

[OldManPilot]

You bunch of brazen little pea brained idiots.... how dare you take on the responsibilty of even GUESSING what happened... I wish to god I knew your names.... I swear I would never allow ANY of you on my A/C.

If you can't say anything nice.... Say nothing at all!!!!!!!!!

Karma gentlemen... Karma... trust me.. you will get yours!

 

[eaglefly]

You bunch of brazen little pea brained idiots.... how dare you take on the responsibilty of even GUESSING what happened... I wish to god I knew your names.... I swear I would never allow ANY of you on my A/C.

If you can't say anything nice.... Say nothing at all!!!!!!!!!

Karma gentlemen... Karma... trust me.. you will get yours!

Another idiot crawls out.....................

 

[erj-145mech]

You bunch of brazen little pea brained idiots.... how dare you take on the responsibilty of even GUESSING what happened... I wish to god I knew your names.... I swear I would never allow ANY of you on my A/C.

If you can't say anything nice.... Say nothing at all!!!!!!!!!

Karma gentlemen... Karma... trust me.. you will get yours!

Its not guessing, its common knowledge now that the NTSB has released the data.

 

[Cody_V]

Just wanted to express my sorrow for the crew, the passengers, the families and friends of those involved in this unfortunate event. No matter what the results and conclusions of the investigation are I am sorry for the great loss our industry has taken and my thoughts and prayers are with those involved.

 

[DrewBlows]

And according to the NTSB, the crew initially pre-flighted the wrong aircraft on sunday morning, including firing up the APU, before realizing it, and were rushed into getting the right aircraft ready for the morning flight.

Sorry erj, I'm going to pick on you for a minute to illustrate a point that a lot of people seem to confuse.

There is a difference between fact and speculation (or opinion). A prudent writer would distinguish the difference in their writing. Print media is generally much better at distinguishing the difference than television media. Erj has given us a good example of mixing fact with speculation.

And according to the NTSB, the crew initially pre-flighted the wrong aircraft on sunday morning, including firing up the APU, before realizing it,...

This is fact. The NTSB did, in fact, say that the crew preflighted the wrong airplane.

...and were rushed into getting the right aircraft ready for the morning flight.

This is speculation (or opinion, it's not clear). It states what is impossible to know, but doesn't offer it as opinion or speculation, leaving the appearance that it is fact. If you think that the crew may have been rushed, say so, but don't make a factual statement. The fact is that the only ones who know if the crew was rushed is the crew. I'm sure that the CSA agents and/or ramp agents could offer their opinion as to whether the crew was rushed, but barring a statement from the crew such as "we are rushed because we preflighted the wrong airplane", any statement from a CSA or ramp agent would be opinion also.

If you want to speculate or opine on the accident feel free (I wouldn't choose to do that, but that's my opinion), but when you do make it clear that is what you are doing.

 

[ReportCanoa]

Black's Law Dictionary defines negligence as "the failure to use such care as a reasonably prudent and careful person would use under similar circumstances...."

Yep, and define reasonably prudent. It goes on and on. Call it what you wish, but negligence is a word used only in the courtroom. I wrote it was 'designed' by lawyers and what I meant was 'used' by lawyers. A 'reasonably prudent' person still makes errors.

 

[erj-145mech]

The NTSB spokswoman said that the pilots started the auxilliary power unit, that is ver batum, and I distinctly remember her saying that in a news conference. She was asked about DFR data when that was brought up.

 

[Cody_V]

I think it is important to understand the ignorance and stupidity of the media and sometimes even the NTSB in the preliminary stages of a post accident investigation. These journalists pretend to grow a brain and are suddenly experts in aviation and end up printing and saying a lot of stupid, inaccurate, and completley false information just to strecth out a 1000 word article or 5 minute video. It has happened in just about every accident I can remember. The media also loves to immediatley point the finger at pilot error because it is easier to blame the ones at the helm when they can't defend themselves. These chicken-$hit reporters take the easy road out and stir peoples fear and emotions so they can cash a check at the end of the week. One reporter, and I can't remember the exact quote, but basically commented that they are keeping James alive if only to find out what happened. What the hell is that!!! Another questioned why James would steer the airplane onto the wrong runway for takeoff. Last time I was FO on a CRJ I had no tiller on my side!! This is just a small example of inaccurate and misleading facts.

Bottom line, the media is almost always our enemy as pilots. When it hits the fan, right or wrong, if I am ever lying in a hospital bed or worse, I would sure like to know that my fellow collegues and the aviation community has my back until the facts are revealed if at all.

 

[wmuflyguy]

The NTSB spokswoman said that the pilots started the auxilliary power unit, that is ver batum, and I distinctly remember her saying that in a news conference. She was asked about DFR data when that was brought up.

Whats your point? That is a pre-flight duty. Doesn't prove they were rushing.

 

[erj-145mech]

You are not going prove that they weren't rushing until you interview the FO either?

This is the investigation phase of the accident, you aren't going to prove anything at this point. I've been in this business long enough and have seen enough to form an educated opinion.

 

[DrewBlows]

I've been in this business long enough and have seen enough to form an educated opinion.

That's the problem, you state YOUR OPINION as fact. In addition to your inability to distinguish between fact and opinion, I am beginning to think that you may have a reading comprehension problem.

 

[Donsa320]

The only intentional mistake that I can see in this accident was continuing the take off on a runway without runway lights during the hours of darkness. Sunrise was 0703hrs EDT that morning. They rolled about 0610hrs EDT. If they had requested the runway lights be turned on the whole thing would not have happened, I believe, as then the tower probably would have caught the error in time. Lining up on the wrong runway was certainly not intentional and was the only other mistake. Sad.

DC

 

[JetPilot_Mike]

You are not going prove that they weren't rushing until you interview the FO either?

This is the investigation phase of the accident, you aren't going to prove anything at this point. I've been in this business long enough and have seen enough to form an educated opinion.

Who cares what you think. You have never showed up at the airport, at O dark thirty, been let out by a rampie, asked him what plane is going to ATL, have him point to that one and say, "I think that one." We fire up the APU right away, as it's dark, and you need to get the flaps to 20 for the walk around. Then the lead rampie shows up, and says you're in the wrong one. You shut down, and do it all over again. It's happened about 5 times to me in my 7 years. Believe me, after having them make me preflight twice, the last thing I am worried about is being "on time." I doubt they cared either.

I've never been a mechanic, but I bet that's pretty easy...except when you rig up the cables wrong like that 1900.

 

[erj-145mech]

Well Mikey, I don't give a rats a$$ what you think either, but I'm just as entitled to my opinion as you are.

I've never gotten to the airport at oh dark thirty to preflight a jet, I was there all night performing required mx so that you could get there at oh dark thirty to drive it to its next destination. I had the coffee made and waiting on your dumb a$$ to show and leave so that I could go home.

In my thirty two years in aviation maintenance, I have never crossed the control cables, just as you never crashed after taking off on the wrong runway.

 

[ultrarunner]

If you think that the crew may have been rushed, say so, but don't make a factual statement. The fact is that the only ones who know if the crew was rushed is the crew. I'm sure that the CSA agents and/or ramp agents could offer their opinion as to whether the crew was rushed, but barring a statement from the crew such as "we are rushed because we preflighted the wrong airplane", any statement from a CSA or ramp agent would be opinion also.

While I agree with that, if in fact the crew was concerened or attempted an on-time departure it's reasonable to speculate that if the crew had to bring up a second cold airplane after readying a previous one, they were short on time.

Not sure what time they pushed vs. the departure time (someone here I'm sure has that info) but if they pushed on-time after bringing up two cold airplanes, there were cranking like mad. As anyone here knows how long it takes to just wake up one plane, let alone two.

 

[wmuflyguy]

While I agree with that, if in fact the crew was concerened or attempted an on-time departure it's reasonable to speculate that if the crew had to bring up a second cold airplane after readying a previous one, they were short on time.

Not sure what time they pushed vs. the departure time (someone here I'm sure has that info) but if they pushed on-time after bringing up two cold airplanes, there were cranking like mad. As anyone here knows how long it takes to just wake up one plane, let alone two.

It takes longer to carry ones crap (roller-baord, chart case...etc) between the two planes, than it takes to bring the CRJ up and running.