Comair sold to Mesa?????

[FL990]

FL990,
As a fellow ASA pilot, I have several questions for you.

1. Did Mesaba or XJT pilots stab us in the back when they negotiated sub-CMR contracts AFTER the CMR contract? If so did you voice your opinion to them at the time?

2. Did ACA, ALG, PDT or Air Wisconsin stab us in the back when they negotiated concessions after the CMR contract was signed? If so did you voice your opinion to them at the time?

3. Did the United, Delta, NWA, and CAL pilots stab us in the back when they negotiated concessions after 911? If so did you voice your opinion to them at the time?

4. Did you refuse to fly the CMR aircraft that showed up here at ASA during their strike?

5. Did you thank the CMR pilots for turning down RFP 1 which resulted in them stagnating?

6. Do honestly believe that any single pilot group can unilaterally hold up this mythical "bar" that everyone talks about?

I don't blame CMR pilots - I blame poor union leadership and poor strategic planning on ALPA's part.

Joe

Responses:

1: Did ASA have a handshake agreement between MEC's with Mesaba or XJT not to take concessions for growth?

2id ASA have this afformentioned agreement in response one with the companies you mentioned in question 2?

3. Do we make anywhere close to what mainline pilots groups make with regards to pay...even when compared to averages per seat?

4. The CMR aircraft we received while they were on strike were not aircraft off there lot but were RFP aircraft which they could not receive because they weren't flying. They WERE NOT aircraft with there name on them.

5. Did they thank us for turning down RFP one which most likely resulted in us losing all the additional aircraft which we would have received if we would have extended the contract for growth...(ie taken concession for growth)

6.No, i don't believe that any one group can....however, Delta had been putting us in a spot to compete between each other for years and up until the "great concession" we refused. We aren't competing for Delta's business with Mesaba, NWA or any of the others you mentions...and we wouldn't have had to compete with CMR if they would have held there guns.

I would agree that our union system is not perfect, but they could have said no...we did and we still got aircraft.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Hey Joe...

Besides pay, I think XJT has the better contract overall but what does that matter when....rumor has it that Delta and NWA are merging, stapling CMR to the bottom and selling those jets to Pinacle and Mesaba...or something like that!

Also heard that J.O. is looking for outside investors to get 73s on property from U...those ought to be good wages! 2 pilots and 3 FAs for a grand total of...drum roll please!.....$150/hr!!!! whoo-hoooo

Foreverfo,

The new XJT contract sold out FOs. The FO rates on the XJT contract were less than ASA's FO rates at year 2 & 3. As far as Mesa flying 737's, that may or may not happen. I am not a fan of Mesa management nor Mesa ALPA. Don't forget that it was Mesa ALPA that invented the jets4jobs so they obviously don't have any self respect. That being said, if they did get 737s, they wouldn't be the first to "lower the bar". Everyone "lowers the bar" when they go to work for these carriers. You and I both contributed to this when we accepted jobs for low pay. Every carrier that signs a contract for less than the industry leader contributes to this. Every 300 hour pilot who goes from 0 time to regional FO in 12 months contributes to this problem. In the end, no single group can hold up this mythical "bar" and no single group can lower this mythical "bar". I don't want to here "who's" fault it is, I want to know what our collective solution is? Give me specific examples of how to fix it.

Joe

 

[JoeMerchant]

Responses:

1: Did ASA have a handshake agreement between MEC's with Mesaba or XJT not to take concessions for growth?

So you have to have a "handshake" agreement to stab someone in the back? I was one of the ones who scoffed at that so-called "handshake" agreement - they don't mean squat. Maybe ALPA should do something other than these fantasy land "handshake" agreements. We wouldn't accept a "handshake" agreement with management, so why do we accept it in this so called "brotherhood"?

Agreements or not, they still lowered this mythical "bar" that you mention which affected CMR's ability to maintain it.

2id ASA have this afformentioned agreement in response one with the companies you mentioned in question 2?

Same response. These agreements did not occur in a vacuum and directly led to the CMR pilots decision.

3. Do we make anywhere close to what mainline pilots groups make with regards to pay...even when compared to averages per seat?

We do now and once again these agreements did not occur in a vacuum. They too led to the CMR decision.

4. The CMR aircraft we received while they were on strike were not aircraft off there lot but were RFP aircraft which they could not receive because they weren't flying. They WERE NOT aircraft with there name on them.

Wrong FL990, they were active CMR aircraft that were returned to the lease company to be steralized and sent to ASA and SKYW. Again this didn't happen in a vacuum and contributed.

5. Did they thank us for turning down RFP one which most likely resulted in us losing all the additional aircraft which we would have received if we would have extended the contract for growth...(ie taken concession for growth)

No and I didn't expect them to. However they turned it down and DIDN'T get any aircraft. They went on strike for 89 days while they watched their aircraft move to other parts of the parent corporation while their fellow "union brothers" flew their aircraft with their passengers. I'm not saying it was our fault, but again it didn't happen in a vacuum and contributed to the decision.

6.No, i don't believe that any one group can....however, Delta had been putting us in a spot to compete between each other for years and up until the "great concession" we refused. We aren't competing for Delta's business with Mesaba, NWA or any of the others you mentions...and we wouldn't have had to compete with CMR if they would have held there guns.

HELLO!!!! If you have multiple separate groups on the same property, eventually someone will give in to the bidding. Either take away managements ability to put flying out for bid, or ACCEPT it. Those are the only two options. Complaining about it is as useful as complaing about gravity when you fall on your ass. It may make you feel better to complain about it, but it doesn't change it.

I would agree that our union system is not perfect, but they could have said no...we did and we still got aircraft.

We were cheaper, that is why we got the aircraft. You may not like the fact that we are competitors, but under this system we are.

 

[FL990]

Joey,

ok...I am not going to post another 10 page post...

I read what you said, your first 2 responses are just poor, we agreed not to do it, we turned it down, they didn't....END OF STORY.

By ASA, you mean Atlantic Southeast Airlines...reason I ask is cause you say we make as much as a mainline pilot now.....LOL...on what planet??!!!

about us flying there aircraft...by what I was told by some of our top MEC members, you are just flat out wrong on this...and lets not forget that as a result of this concession, they are getting 10 of our planes...and whose to say we wouldn't have gotten the GCAS and kept the planes we have.

Next...ok...not complaining..just stating the obvious...

the only reason we are cheaper...because we are still in negotiations...if they hadn't conceeded, we probably would have gotten more...but as you will respond...we don't know that..or probably not...anyway..we will never know.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Joey,


By ASA, you mean Atlantic Southeast Airlines...reason I ask is cause you say we make as much as a mainline pilot now.....LOL...on what planet??!!!

Here are the max captain rates for several airlines. These are all based on guarantee - no credits and no picking up time.

AMR MD80: 118,272 per year
AMR 737-800: 121,344 per year
UAL 737/A320: 100,620 per year
DAL 737-200: 121,680 per year
DAL MD80: 124,800 per year
CMR CRJ700: 101,700 per year
HZN CRJ700: 103,500 per year

So a senior CMR or HZN captain makes more based on guarantee than a senior United 737/A320 captain. If we break it down based on seating, the CMR and HZN pilot make more.

You might say, what about the A funds? Gone.
You might say, what about the trip and duty rigs? At United and USair they are gone.

So to answer your question, this is on EARTH. Where have you been?

about us flying there aircraft...by what I was told by some of our top MEC members, you are just flat out wrong on this...and lets not forget that as a result of this concession, they are getting 10 of our planes...and whose to say we wouldn't have gotten the GCAS and kept the planes we have.

No, the "top" MEC members are not telling the truth because they are embarrassed that they fell for DW's "brand scope" BS. The ASA and CMR MECs have both become way too political and cozy with ALPA national for my liking. I don't trust either one.

 

[Sir Muttley]

Quote:
Originally Posted by FL990
4. The CMR aircraft we received while they were on strike were not aircraft off there lot but were RFP aircraft which they could not receive because they weren't flying. They WERE NOT aircraft with there name on them.





Wrong FL990, they were active CMR aircraft that were returned to the lease company to be steralized and sent to ASA and CMR. Again this didn't happen in a vacuum and contributed.

Talk about a back-stabbing move!!!!! ASA knew full well that the aircraft they received during the Comair strike were from Comair's line, no matter how they got there. ASA flew them and never even thought twice about it!!!!

BTW Comair gave you as much support as they could for as long as they could. ASA just dragged their feet too and made no headway while continuing to accept RFP aircraft awards. Do you actually think if you had taken your contract negotiations a little more seriously Delta would have been so willing to award ASA all the aircraft they did? I think not! Delta would have seen the writing on the wall. The ASA pilot group finally started getting more serious with negotiations within the last year and guess what....you got SOLD! I'm sure Comair will be next, but Delta just got tired of seeing banner towing aircraft over Turner Field during Braves games and decide to let SkyWest deal with your contract.

With that said, FL990, SUCK IT UP, GROW UP, and MOVE ON and quit your darn whining and sniveling!!!!!!

 

[JoeMerchant]

Folks, the fact is, while we sit here and snipe at each other and point fingers at each other, your ALPA National President is sitting in Herndon making $400,000 per year with an ALPA pension of almost $200,000 per year while he pays lip service to "brand scope" and signing contracts that actually INCREASE the number of alter-ego carriers thru the "law of unintended consequences". Your MEC Chairmen are on full time ALPA leave following Mr. Woerth down this mythical land of "brand scope". Instead of placing the blame where it belongs, we continue to blame each other.

Leadership starts at the TOP! Where is it?

Joe

 

[spinproof]

Here are the max captain rates for several airlines. These are all based on guarantee - no credits and no picking up time.

AMR MD80: 118,272 per year
AMR 737-800: 121,344 per year
UAL 737/A320: 100,620 per year
DAL 737-200: 121,680 per year
DAL MD80: 124,800 per year
CMR CRJ700: 101,700 per year
HZN CRJ700: 103,500 per year

So a senior CMR or HZN captain makes more based on guarantee than a senior United 737/A320 captain. If we break it down based on seating, the CMR and HZN pilot make more.

You can't make a seat comparison when you are working with different hour guarantees. AMR is 64 hrs and Comair is 75. The rates are for hours flown in type.
Example: AMR 737-800 158/Hr Comair 700 113/hr

 

[FL990]

AMR MD80: 118,272 per year
AMR 737-800: 121,344 per year
UAL 737/A320: 100,620 per year
DAL 737-200: 121,680 per year
DAL MD80: 124,800 per year
CMR CRJ700: 101,700 per year
HZN CRJ700: 103,500 per year





.

lets take another look Joe...www.airlinepilotcentral.com/content/view/6/16/

thats ones for AMR...Take a look at second year fo on the 80 ...71/hr...ASA 34....HMMM...your compairing full grown cow to a baby elephant.

Yes when you get to the top of the pay scale...theres only a $40/hr difference between there lowest paid senior capitain and our highest...

so it is fair to say that on PLUTO...we make the same money...get real dude!!

 

[FL990]

With that said, FL990, SUCK IT UP, GROW UP, and MOVE ON and quit your darn whining and sniveling!!!!!!

Hey Mutt,

If you guys are so proud of this concession that you took, how come every CMR pilot i talk to denies voting for it...hmmm..no one voted for it but yet.....what....oh....wait...it passed....hmmm.

You must be proud.

Ok, but seriously, good luck with this mesa thing if it is true, because the whipsaw that was between ASA/CMR here at Delta aint nothin compared to what you would see at Mesa. If they had it there way, you would pay them to fly those planes.